The GM's Hall

[Markus Wilding]

OOC: Markus, beyond your diplomatic response you have not been granted an autoadvance at the time of this posting and I do not believe you are allowed to post these movements and actions. That being said, I did PM Dinoz a week ago and he has yet to open the message, so it is probably time to consider moving forward without his response, at least for now.

 

It seems ridiculous to me that military action is taken against me and I need to wait on an autoadvance to respond.

[Californian]

It's a weird situation because neither me nor you own the land currently being contested. I've held off on posting after my initial post because I'm under the impression that we would both need autoadvances while operating in Brandenburg (even though my involvement was done to help him). Would it not be fair to assume that your movements would be very contested by the people of Brandenburg? Therefore you would have to be taking into account the actions of my movements as well as his military trying to fight against you every step of the way. 

 

That being said, I'm a little disappointed that Dinoz94 has fallen off the face of the earth and hasn't done anything. Definitely would appreciate a GM's input and would discuss with you more on IRC, Markus.

[Biohazard]

Ty, Markus, consider this an official decision on your request: You guys can auto-advance, one a piece. You cannot RP Dinoz' response to you, as he currently is still active (until the 24th), and that would be RPing his citizens. When the 24th arrives, if he has not responded yet then feel free to continue your advances as if it was white land. 

[Triyun]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123103-southern-italy/#entry3286506

 

Is RPing non-citizens loyal to you in a disputed territory allowed?  

 

Authorities throughout southern Italy have been working in tandem with citizens to outline a comprehensive list of Spartan military locations, which have been encrypted in accordance with AES-256 and relayed through secure means to Milanese authorities. Police have joined massive demonstrations in L'Aquila, Napoli, and several smaller southern cities demanding the immediate removal of Spartan troops. Referendums have been organized in areas near the border with Milan, although they will soon be spreading throughout the region, as the people of southern Italy would much prefer to be ruled by Italians than to be under the "mad Spartan tyrant's" boot of steel. Hundreds of thousands have clogged the border roads, pleading with the Doge to be accepted as political refugees.

 

I was under the impression that one could not RP citizens until they were under your actual nation or in an undisputed protectorate.   At this moment neither of us should be claiming to have the loyalties of the ciizens who RPing the government which are not our own nations.   This seems to be a very common rule across CN RPs that has gone on for a long time, especially as Hereno has had no ground forces in these areas, making RPing the loyalties of the  citizens especially to achieve military effect of high questionability to he rules.  

Edited July 23, 2014 by Triyun

[PresidentDavid]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123103-southern-italy/#entry3286506

 

Is RPing non-citizens loyal to you in a disputed territory allowed?  

 

 

 

 

I was under the impression that one could not RP citizens until they were under your actual nation or in an undisputed protectorate.   At this moment neither of us should be claiming to have the loyalties of the ciizens who RPing the government which are not our own nations.   This seems to be a very common rule across CN RPs that has gone on for a long time, especially as Hereno has had no ground forces in these areas, making RPing the loyalties of the  citizens especially to achieve military effect of high questionability to he rules.  

 

Did you make the seven posts required to acquire land? If it's not officially under your authority than anyone can roll in there because it's still technically white space. It's just white space with your troops in it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

Edited July 23, 2014 by PresidentDavid

[Evangeline Anovilis]

 

Did you make the seven posts required to acquire land? If it's not officially under your authority than anyone can roll in there because it's still technically white space. It's just white space with your troops in it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

No, neither did Hereno. You know, this is between two established countries contesting white space, not some new nation popping up out of nowhere. You could actually look at the thread and the map and find this out almost immediatly, before making comments that do not address this in the least, because they are made with an utter ignorance of what is actually going on.

[PresidentDavid]

No, neither did Hereno. You know, this is between two established countries contesting white space, not some new nation popping up out of nowhere. You could actually look at the thread and the map and find this out almost immediatly, before making comments that do not address this in the least, because they are made with an utter ignorance of what is actually going on.

 

Ah I thought southern Italy was a new nation. 

[Triyun]

 

Ah I thought southern Italy was a new nation. 

No I'm merely saying neither of us should be RPing the citizens.  I'm not claiming the right to myself.

[PresidentDavid]

No I'm merely saying neither of us should be RPing the citizens.  I'm not claiming the right to myself.

 

Then yeah I'm pretty sure you're right. I mean you can RP citizens if you take them out of your soldier count, but other than that no you can't RP them if it's contested.

[Hereno]

Lol, I beat Triyun in the actual RP so he ran to the mods to try to get his loss overturned.

#1: I declared all of the land of Italy a protectorate in my DoE

#2: It was only after my DoE that Triyun posted his troop movements into the area.

#3: I, not having even seen that post by which he broke the rules by not RPing my protectorate, posted acknowledging Sicily as independent and then creating a protectorate of Naples, leaving the rest of Italy to itself.

#4: In my declaring a protectorate over Naples, I specifically mentioned that it was a deal brokered with the citizens/government. This entire incident is predicated on me having RPed this white space. Triyun then responded to that and did not bring it up as a rule violation. Rather than bring up the fact that he violated my protectorate, I rolled with his scenario and let him claim it as his since I didn't notice it when he moved troops there after me like a week earlier. After all, I am the citizens there so this could be a fun scenario.

#5: Only after a very rude PM conversation and a conspicuous lack of RPing it out like I had been, Triyun realizes that he's been bested now in the diplomatic arena. Unfortunately for him, he already acknowledged that I am RPing the citizens of Naples when he accepted that as a valid movement and didn't report it. If you strike one, you have to strike both, and so I will raise the point that I declared that land a protectorate when I DoE'd and Triyun ignored that. I should have troops there and Triyun is invading me.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Hereno

[Triyun]

Umm.  I'm not, I never realized this was even allowed, because I assumed that basic CN RP 1 rules such as you can't RP citizens not in your area carried over.  Maybe TBM can clarify, but at least there unless you held a territory you could not RP citizens in a contest.  We had a lot of cases.

Now onto these other points.

To point #1, we had conflicting protectorates sure, but you can't just say 'mine' in one post and claim to get to RP all the citizens, I don't believe that's allowed by anyone.

To point #2, you only DoEed in Northern Italy not Southern Italy, its my understanding that you can only claim to RP people in your actual nation you declare in, beyond that you need to make 7 posts.

To point #3, I acknowledged TBMs sovereignty after I said that the protectorate I was making in the South was for new nations.  I left Sicily but that doesn't mean I ceded the rest if that's what you're arguing, I'm not really following other than to say that I've been operating under the assumption that if two people are contesting an area neither can claim to RP citizens, and even in a protecorate area, its a protectorate not part of my nation and so I'm not going to go out of my way to define the politics of a region so as if a new player wishes to roll in a protectorate they have maximal freedom to RP without overturning my own. 

To point #4, you'll note I never once ICly acknowledged a government in Naples as existing but rather said that the Southern territories were all local governments and Sparta had kept to itself.  

 

Southern Italy is not a independent state and thusly simply has no government to enter into an agreement with, it is a collection of localities with Spartan military forces protecting the government

 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123103-southern-italy/?p=3286240

 

Up until this last post in point of fact you never RPed anything beyond some people claiming to be the Naples Government.  That's not RPing citizens that's just saying shit.  RPing the actions of a massive network of operatives and collaborators and the movements of hundreds of thousands of people as you did in this post is clearly something that's a much bigger RPing of citizens.  Again, there has been a history of this done before, which I'm sure TBM can speak to as its my knowledge that he's he original author of these rules, where its pretty clear in all of cybernations role play you can only RP your own citizens, not disputed citizens or someone elses citizens.  To the degree that I did not raise a big stink prior to this post was purely because its not very fun to raise stinks over minor things, and it never occurred to me anyone would try to do this as it was pretty much a settled issue for most players here.

To point #5, the PM wasn't rude it was matter of fact.  I'm happy to share it with everyone if you want.  You PMed me asking me OOC what my end game was and I told you I didn't call you names or anything like that.  I simply stated that there were two courses of action I wished to pursue which I'll tell anyone, one was you backing down and attempting to talk to me rather than trying to take Italy unilaterally, or 2 that we could fight.  You told me that it was your vital national interests and ask what face saving thing I needed to back off.  I simply don't see the benefits and costs of backing off, to be outweighed by continuing.  That's not being rude that's being rational.

[Hereno]

I told you in the thread that it was a protectorate when you asked for clarification. It was a response to a question that you yourself asked as your King character.

If I can annex a territory and administer it at will, why not let me RP it as a vassal state so it can be more interesting? As long as there's no difference to the way other people interact with it.

It isn't fair to both deny me my protectorate and my vassal state in one go. If you're going to just land troops and set up defenses there without my nation even bothering to learn of it, you can at the very least let me consider the people/characters mine as they should have been anyway. I'm not even averse to the idea of an interesting RP scenario, but I don't think it's fair for you to expect me to abandon my unification of Italy RP that I wanted to do just because you want to conquer something.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Hereno

[Triyun]

And its fair to deny someone else?  You have no more claim on the land than I have, and I have no more claim on the land than you.  I'm not saying you cannot seek Italian reunification, but I'm saying that I have a different interest as Sparta and am opposing you, and both of us should not b RPing citizens in a disputed region that are not part of my nation.  

 

Its not that I'm not learning about the nation, its that I'm taking a very devolved decentralized view of governance of a protectorate versus self rule.  If you want to talk about the political and public administration philosophies behind my actions I'm happy to do so either via PM, query, or in an IRC channel if others don't mind.  

 

However for the GM Hall, the only issue in question is is someone regardless of their goal allowed to RP a citizenry that is not part of their nation in a disputed region, it is my understanding the answer to that is no, not just for you, but for everyone.

[Hereno]

And its fair to deny someone else?  You have no more claim on the land than I have, and I have no more claim on the land than you.  I'm not saying you cannot seek Italian reunification, but I'm saying that I have a different interest as Sparta and am opposing you, and both of us should not b RPing citizens in a disputed region that are not part of my nation.  
 
Its not that I'm not learning about the nation, its that I'm taking a very devolved decentralized view of governance of a protectorate versus self rule.  If you want to talk about the political and public administration philosophies behind my actions I'm happy to do so either via PM, query, or in an IRC channel if others don't mind.  
 
However for the GM Hall, the only issue in question is is someone regardless of their goal allowed to RP a citizenry that is not part of their nation in a disputed region, it is my understanding the answer to that is no, not just for you, but for everyone.

1. I do have more claim to it than you. I am an Italian nation IC, and I also /claimed it before you did when I claimed it in my DoE that you ignored/.

2. There is much more to it than that. If you want to invade my territories, deal with my citizens. If not, go back to Sparta and leave Italy alone. Stop trying to bully me out of my territories with your half-truths.

[Triyun]

1.  I do not believe anywhere in the rules demands that there is more claim to land than another based n the ethnic group.  Claiming something but it not being part of your nation means others can contest it regardless of where it is.  

 

2.  Italy isn't yours, you want it to be yours.  There is a difference between the two Hereno.  You can't always get what you want.  If you wanted all of Italy you should have made a national claim to all of Italy.  Instead you only made a claim to sections of Italy and then wanted to expand beyond that, therefore others are free to contest it which is what I'm doing.  I'm not bullying you at all we just simply have different goals.  Just because you think your cause is better doesn't give you the right to RP citizens beyond your IC borders, your borders did not include this area and therefore it can be contested.  Its pretty clear, to expand your borders you have to make 7 posts and during that time the area can be contested, those are the rules.  You can't claim it can't be contested or you control the area to do massive movements of hundreds of thousands of people prior.

[Rudolph]

To the GM's understanding, people can generally RP anything in open white space. However, protectorates are restricted solely to the first who announces said protectorate over the white piece of land.

Thus, the GMs rule that at the time Hereno may RP the citizens in southern Italy, having announced his protectorate first. Triyun of course may contest this protectorate IC'ly, but not RP the people.

[Hereno]

For clarification purposes, does this mean that his protectorate post is wiped and the situation in the area is reset back to where it was when I DoE'd, or do we have to keep going from where I left off after the last post I made (haven't bothered to see if Triyun has posted since then)? Given that he asked for clarification before claiming it his own protectorate illegally, and not even bothering to let me know he was "challenging" my protection in this way, I think it's fair for the post to be wiped. I should be allowed to defend my protectorate rather than being screwed because I thought the situation was clear and didn't happen to notice the massive invasion and fortification... It's RPing in bad faith to start a war against someone and not tell them about it so you can self-autoadvance and fortify your position /in their territories/. I was willing to let it slide and just have fun and RP, but considering Triyun's insistence on involving the GM team in what appears to my RL self as him trying to screw me out of my land and be a dick, I'm seeking all of the rectification that I believe I'm due as a player. If he wants to take the land for himself and be an adversary, then he can take it properly or not at all.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Hereno

[Markus Wilding]

So, I noticed some parts of Ty's post in Operation Honey Sun that I'm not totally sure about. Just want the GMs to check these specific excepts out:

 

Behind the front lines that were being drawn, defensive measures were being undertaken at the key roads and population centers in Brandenburg/Northlands-held Germany. Positions would be dug around all major cities, with checkpoints constructed at crucial roadways. Key buildings and infrastructure would be scouted as base locations, to be reinforced with heavy weaponry being transported from the Northlands. This would be aided by the transfer of airports from Brandenburg civil authority control to the Northlandic military, allowing for men, arms, and supplies to reach these cities as well as be quickly moved to the front lines. Small arms, portable missiles for anti-armor and anti-surface warfare, and larger caliber artillery would form an imposing interwoven perimeter of anti-ground defenses. In addition to MANPADS and Patriot batteries, several THAAD units and air-search radar installations would also be supplied to provide anti-air and anti-missile defenses.

 

Emphasis mine. I realize that now Brandenburg had gone inactive, but at the time of this post it had not. Wouldn't this be RPing another player's citizens? This move was not sanctioned by Dinoz.

 

In cities that were further back from the front and where defenses had been prepared, Northlandic military and intelligence officials would work with local Brandenburg officials to collect records and documents relating to the government. Alvonia claimed an ultranationalist element had infiltrated the nation and Northlands would examine all records to reconcile this statement, ultimately proving a futile task in the cities in western Germany to which they had access. While the Brandenburg government appeared somewhat slow to operate and at times unresponsive, there was no indication that extremists were in any way involved with the government. These records, once processed, would be made available to friendly and neighboring nations, with invitations to send forensics record officials to Brandenburg government sites to confirm this fact.  

 

Same sort of question here. I made sure with my previous (now wiped) spyroll posts not to claim I had access or RP any of Dinoz's citizens (I will admit I slipped up a little with a pastor or two). Ty seems to be doing both of these things here, claiming he is working with the local authorities and going through Brandenburgian files.

[Californian]

Acknowledged. I've edited my post to request these things instead of gain access to them. Let me know if there's anything else I've missed.

[Triyun]

Oh FFS.  Hereno grow up, I did not do anything out of malice, I just disagreed with you.  We're waiting on a hearing from the full GM team, my case has merit with one of them, yours has merit with one of them, just hold onto your socks.  For once try acting like what I do is simply a disagreement rather than a grand conspiracy.  Further you retcon RPs because of actual rule violations, not because you don't like the players IC actions.  I landed in a territory you did not control.  Otherwise why even have sphere of influence DoE rules.  Someone could just claim half a continent as a protectorate when they DOE as a small country.  

[PresidentDavid]

Edit: Was too mean nevermind

Edited July 24, 2014 by PresidentDavid

[Hereno]

Oh FFS.  Hereno grow up, I did not do anything out of malice, I just disagreed with you.  We're waiting on a hearing from the full GM team, my case has merit with one of them, yours has merit with one of them, just hold onto your socks.  For once try acting like what I do is simply a disagreement rather than a grand conspiracy.  Further you retcon RPs because of actual rule violations, not because you don't like the players IC actions.  I landed in a territory you did not control.  Otherwise why even have sphere of influence DoE rules.  Someone could just claim half a continent as a protectorate when they DOE as a small country.

Fact #1: I claimed it before you
Fact #2: You knew this.
Fact #3: You moved troops into the territory and claimed it for yourself with knowledge that it was mine, and without mentioning it to me.

That is the entirety of the issue at hand. Do not pretend that we are on equal footing logically, in-character, or in any other manner. You are the one who chose to mess with my nation and my RP, and you could still say "forget it" and cede the issue. If you had any respect for me as a player, you would have already done this, knowing my intentions for the area. You could have even just let things be without bringing it to the GMs, but you didn't want to do that, either. But I am a child? If I am a child for wanting to have fun RPing, then so be it. What does that then make you by comparison? I think more highly of you than that, Triyun.

[Biohazard]

This discussion is getting far too personal for the scope of this thread. Reign it in guys, and keep it civil, please. 

[Triyun]

I'm simply saying calling someone a dick is unnecessary in a game, unless they've done something really big like go back on a word, you can assume that whatever anyone wants to do ICly, it doesn't need to go to personal insults and questioning whether they had sinister malintents.  Its a game.   You need to be able to disengage yourself from the character action and laugh about it is all I'm saying.  If the other person (and clearly here there are disagreements beyond just me) with the way you interpreted the rules, laugh and think its not a big deal or joke about fighting or appeasement or whatever.  International politics is a hilarious joke anyways, making fantasy international relations even more hilarious :P 

 

I understand and have never said your want of a unified Italy is invalid, but have you ever stopped to think my want of a larger sphere of influence in the Mediterranean is also a goal I have?  But you know what, I accept I have to deal with others to get it, not just have it right off the bat.  Its not like modern day Italy is the only nation that had southern italy in its history and has to have it into time immemorial, in fact that's a really really modern thing.  That's not to say I think based on geography anyone is entitled to a nice claim.  I'm simply saying this can't all be about you, or me, everyone should have a level playing field to claim stuff within a reasonable time frame, and you shouldn't be mad at people who want something you want also.  Its a game there's going to be overlap, get over it, drink a lot of coffee or beer and yell come at me bro!  

[Hereno]

I'm simply saying calling someone a dick is unnecessary in a game, unless they've done something really big like go back on a word, you can assume that whatever anyone wants to do ICly, it doesn't need to go to personal insults and questioning whether they had sinister malintents.  Its a game.   You need to be able to disengage yourself from the character action and laugh about it is all I'm saying.  If the other person (and clearly here there are disagreements beyond just me) with the way you interpreted the rules, laugh and think its not a big deal or joke about fighting or appeasement or whatever.  International politics is a hilarious joke anyways, making fantasy international relations even more hilarious :P 
 
I understand and have never said your want of a unified Italy is invalid, but have you ever stopped to think my want of a larger sphere of influence in the Mediterranean is also a goal I have?  But you know what, I accept I have to deal with others to get it, not just have it right off the bat.  Its not like modern day Italy is the only nation that had southern italy in its history and has to have it into time immemorial, in fact that's a really really modern thing.  That's not to say I think based on geography anyone is entitled to a nice claim.  I'm simply saying this can't all be about you, or me, everyone should have a level playing field to claim stuff within a reasonable time frame, and you shouldn't be mad at people who want something you want also.  Its a game there's going to be overlap, get over it, drink a lot of coffee or beer and yell come at me bro!

You could have claimed southern Italy before I declared and claimed it myself, but you didn't. Even afterward, you could have approached me as a player and asked if I'd work with you and let you grab some of the land there. But you also didn't do that. Instead, what you did was station troops in my protectorate, claim that it's your own protectorate, and then run to the GMs to try to take away the one advantage I still had when I RPed the citizenry. It failed. The GMs can read and no matter how many angles you approach this from, nor how many pages you spend attempting to distract from my point, your refusal to address it is both obvious and helpful to my case. Indeed, we cannot always get what we want - you should accept that and move on. Edited July 25, 2014 by Hereno