The GM's Hall

[Triyun]

No... I was simply under the impression that when a protectorate is disputed you can't RP the citizens.  You DoEed the day Italy went out of existence, and I claimed the protectorate that same day when I had time during the day.  I'm simply RPing to what was the norm here as TBM had said in the other thread, which was for years its been that you have to have units in an area to declare a protectorate not just say it.  So that's what I did.  You had DoEed in your areas, so I assume your units are there, you have to RP moving troops for them to be somewhere outside your territory.  I'm simply asking for clarity from the GMs, Lyn has agreed with my point on how you declared your protectorate wasn't really 100% kosher, rudolph has disagreed and agreed with you.  All I'm saying is let them discuss it, rather than ask for a retcon of my troops.  If my troops have to fight you while you have control of the civilians, so be it that won't change my behavior much, it will just be tactical adjustment, but let us just wait till deliberations finish and then we'll have our battle after.  Its not personal, or worth getting very upset over.  Its just a game with nations that have been in existence for less than a month on top of that.  No biggie.  

 

As for resolving the dispute via query or PM, is this not a IC matter to be resolved by role playing.  That's what I'm doing, why's it a big deal to deal with an IC border issue IC?  I simply don't understand.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Triyun

[Hereno]

No... I was simply under the impression that when a protectorate is disputed you can't RP the citizens.  You DoEed the day Italy went out of existence, and I claimed the protectorate that same day when I had time during the day.  I'm simply RPing to what was the norm here as TBM had said in the other thread, which was for years its been that you have to have units in an area to declare a protectorate not just say it.  So that's what I did.  You had DoEed in your areas, so I assume your units are there, you have to RP moving troops for them to be somewhere outside your territory.  I'm simply asking for clarity from the GMs, Lyn has agreed with my point on how you declared your protectorate wasn't really 100% kosher, rudolph has disagreed and agreed with you.  All I'm saying is let them discuss it, rather than ask for a retcon of my troops.  If my troops have to fight you while you have control of the civilians, so be it that won't change my behavior much, it will just be tactical adjustment, but let us just wait till deliberations finish and then we'll have our battle after.  Its not personal, or worth getting very upset over.  Its just a game with nations that have been in existence for less than a month on top of that.  No biggie.  
 
As for resolving the dispute via query or PM, is this not a IC matter to be resolved by role playing.  That's what I'm doing, why's it a big deal to deal with an IC border issue IC?  I simply don't understand.

Even if we accept that somehow, magically, my government cannot be protecting what it said it is protecting because I haven't deployed troops into the area yet, that doesn't mean that my in-character government would have just sat around while you funneled an army into the white space state whose independence my government was guaranteeing. If you had a problem with the way I declared my protectorate, the correct response is to tell me and/or to alert the GMs so that something like this doesn't happen. You don't go and then try to steal it out from under me and try to screw me over on technicalities with the rules. Yes, you are and were, in fact, being a dick, and I'm not going to apologize for pointing it out. You're talking now like you're this chill, easy-going RPer who thinks I need to "chill out" because I've, what, defended myself? But in actuality, you are not "trying to figure out" the rules just like you weren't when you were blasting the GMs in the other thread - you're trying to start trouble and give people a hard time.

The fun I was hoping to have by jumping into Europe has been all but completely overshadowed by your un-sportsmanlike behavior. This is a RP. OOC, people are supposed to cooperate so that we can all have a good time - not e-lawyer and bend rules and do everything they can to gain an edge. I had no idea who among the GM team has thought what, because I don't go around badgering them and doing everything I can to make my point stick. I don't have to do that, because I'm correct. And I'll make sure to do my best in the future to completely avoid any interaction with Sparta because you are at least as draining and trollish in your actions as Tywin was. And I don't have time for that. Edited July 25, 2014 by Hereno

[Triyun]

Calling shotgun doesn't mean I agree with you, and I wasn't shy about what I was doing.  As far as stopping me, actually yes it is pretty hard.  I made no attempts to conceal, but I actually do have, having a large force of amphibious vessels with LCAC the ability to rapidly put in ground forces, actually completely without your knowledge minus you RPing have surveillance assets there.  That's just a fact of how militaries work.  Flying aircraft over also isn't that hard.  And I did make a public announcement I was doing it.

 

I'm simply not going to leave Southern Italy simply because you called shot gun.  I've stated IC my intentions.  If you do want to get into a fight and if I do have to do a forcible entry, its something I'd prefer not to do, but that's not a GM matter, that's IC.  You can either not take this personally and we can try and do this amicably, or you can be outraged simply cause two people want the same pixels, and we can have a tussle.  But I think it'd be more constructive if you didn't take this as a huge deal, shit happens.

[Hereno]

Calling shotgun doesn't mean I agree with you, and I wasn't shy about what I was doing.  As far as stopping me, actually yes it is pretty hard.  I made no attempts to conceal, but I actually do have, having a large force of amphibious vessels with LCAC the ability to rapidly put in ground forces, actually completely without your knowledge minus you RPing have surveillance assets there.  That's just a fact of how militaries work.  Flying aircraft over also isn't that hard.  And I did make a public announcement I was doing it.
 
I'm simply not going to leave Southern Italy simply because you called shot gun.  I've stated IC my intentions.  If you do want to get into a fight and if I do have to do a forcible entry, its something I'd prefer not to do, but that's not a GM matter, that's IC.  You can either not take this personally and we can try and do this amicably, or you can be outraged simply cause two people want the same pixels, and we can have a tussle.  But I think it'd be more constructive if you didn't take this as a huge deal, !@#$ happens.

I had no issues just RPing it out - you're the one who came to the GMs trying to get rulings in your favor. Even if we accept everything you've said in this thread as truth, the citizens should still objectively be mine according to the ruling that you requested and was given by Rudolph. And if the citizens are mine, you cannot sneak into the peninsula because the first person who sees you, I control. Therefore, it is necessary to retcon your having landed on the peninsula so that I can have a chance at thwarting your invasion. I would even go so far as to give you the choice as to whether or not you still want to invade. Edited July 26, 2014 by Hereno

[Triyun]

Lyn has agreed with my view that you didn't really properly RP out a protectorate, Rudolph believes that you did.  I should not have to repeat that every post.  We're waiting for Biohazard.  So lets see where that goes.  My issue is not that I feel I should get to RP the citizens, I think that neither of us should because its disputed.

 

Now even supposing Biohazard rules in your favor.  Citizens are not soldiers, you have to RP your stats you cannot use citizens as a substitute for soldiers.  Neither can I.  Neither can anyone else.  If someone invades Sparta and I was fielding 10 million military trained spartan males as civilians, I'm pretty sure that would be called as bull !@#$ and that I was trying to loophole my soldier cap.  So I fail to see why Milan would be different.  

 

What could conceivably be done is that protesting citizens and police could block the entrance of Spartans in choke points i.e. large city streets or something by getting organized and piling up land.  

 

However, that is not the case for an amphibious invasion, especially one that I RPed that did not go into cities but rather concentrated on deploying forces to prevent someone else from entering Italy with the setting up of SAM and LACM/BM sites.  Beyond that I have sent in marine forces, again not concentrated on the city.  

 

Now even accepting that one could do that, logically, even in an operation such as one that you describe you're limited by your ability o collect information, then orient yourself towards processing that information, then deciding on what action to take, and then acting.  The idea that a civilian groups which would not even know the Spartans were invading till they are well ashore.  What this would require as you did not deploy your military simply makes no real sense.

 

It is difficult enough for a organized military force to observe the landing locations of LCAC (Landing Craft Air Cushions), much less know they are coming, civilians have zero capability.  Nor do civilian radars as we saw in the Malaysian Flight Crash earlier this year have capability to track aircraft when they are not themselves returning the ping (something military aircraft don't do).     Now assuming even they got fortunate and had delayed detection, Spartan units would already have the boots on the ground.  Those civilian air traffic controllers, police forces, would somehow without having a central government, without having a national command authority as they are a protectorate, and without having rapid response military forces as again they are a protectorate not a nation state, organize plans to conduct what would have to be non-violent resistance operations that typically takes at minimum days to plan, at which point Sparta would have secured the position it currently occupies.  

 

That said all this is very hypothetical because reaction typically takes much longer, as one can see if one looks at comparable actions (not in terms of the morals, but in terms of a government which does not yet have control over Naples) in say Crimea and the inability of the young Ukrainian government to really orient themselves to what was happening even prior to the Russian Invasion.  

 

My move was perfectly appropriate as far as the entry capabilities of a force which did not face contested air space or sea lanes, which I did not as you had no forces here.  

 

I'm happy to go through step by step for those who want it, because I know this is a detailed explanation and it is rather frowned upon, but I think its important to break down the steps to show why I made my move.  None of this stuff deals with highly technical stuff, its more about logistics and organization with the exception of that civilian stuff isn't a substitute for military stuff when tracking ships and aircraft (that's why the military stuff costs so much more money).  The downed Malaysian flight in SE Asia (not the Ukraine one) had a lot of news articles about civilian radar that probably breaks it down much more for those who don't read about radar to understand and people can go to that if they have a question about that part.  

Edited July 26, 2014 by Triyun

[Markus Wilding]

As I've told a few people, going to be visiting family in Georgia, leaving tomorrow. Won't be back at my PC until the 4th. I'll be able to read what you maniacs do, just not respond. Try not to destroy my nation, please :v

[Hereno]

Lyn has agreed with my view that you didn't really properly RP out a protectorate, Rudolph believes that you did.  I should not have to repeat that every post.  We're waiting for Biohazard.  So lets see where that goes.  My issue is not that I feel I should get to RP the citizens, I think that neither of us should because its disputed.
 
Now even supposing Biohazard rules in your favor.  Citizens are not soldiers, you have to RP your stats you cannot use citizens as a substitute for soldiers.  Neither can I.  Neither can anyone else.  If someone invades Sparta and I was fielding 10 million military trained spartan males as civilians, I'm pretty sure that would be called as bull !@#$ and that I was trying to loophole my soldier cap.  So I fail to see why Milan would be different.  
 
What could conceivably be done is that protesting citizens and police could block the entrance of Spartans in choke points i.e. large city streets or something by getting organized and piling up land.  
 
However, that is not the case for an amphibious invasion, especially one that I RPed that did not go into cities but rather concentrated on deploying forces to prevent someone else from entering Italy with the setting up of SAM and LACM/BM sites.  Beyond that I have sent in marine forces, again not concentrated on the city.  
 
Now even accepting that one could do that, logically, even in an operation such as one that you describe you're limited by your ability o collect information, then orient yourself towards processing that information, then deciding on what action to take, and then acting.  The idea that a civilian groups which would not even know the Spartans were invading till they are well ashore.  What this would require as you did not deploy your military simply makes no real sense.
 
It is difficult enough for a organized military force to observe the landing locations of LCAC (Landing Craft Air Cushions), much less know they are coming, civilians have zero capability.  Nor do civilian radars as we saw in the Malaysian Flight Crash earlier this year have capability to track aircraft when they are not themselves returning the ping (something military aircraft don't do).     Now assuming even they got fortunate and had delayed detection, Spartan units would already have the boots on the ground.  Those civilian air traffic controllers, police forces, would somehow without having a central government, without having a national command authority as they are a protectorate, and without having rapid response military forces as again they are a protectorate not a nation state, organize plans to conduct what would have to be non-violent resistance operations that typically takes at minimum days to plan, at which point Sparta would have secured the position it currently occupies.  
 
That said all this is very hypothetical because reaction typically takes much longer, as one can see if one looks at comparable actions (not in terms of the morals, but in terms of a government which does not yet have control over Naples) in say Crimea and the inability of the young Ukrainian government to really orient themselves to what was happening even prior to the Russian Invasion.  
 
My move was perfectly appropriate as far as the entry capabilities of a force which did not face contested air space or sea lanes, which I did not as you had no forces here.  
 
I'm happy to go through step by step for those who want it, because I know this is a detailed explanation and it is rather frowned upon, but I think its important to break down the steps to show why I made my move.  None of this stuff deals with highly technical stuff, its more about logistics and organization with the exception of that civilian stuff isn't a substitute for military stuff when tracking ships and aircraft (that's why the military stuff costs so much more money).  The downed Malaysian flight in SE Asia (not the Ukraine one) had a lot of news articles about civilian radar that probably breaks it down much more for those who don't read about radar to understand and people can go to that if they have a question about that part.

A week IRL elapsed between your post and the beginning of this incident, but you would not be settled in and cozy before I found out. It would be 15-60 minutes from the first boots on the ground to my Doge finding out about it. I never said I should get to sit there armed to the teeth ready to nuke you into kingdom come at your exact invasion point. Edited July 26, 2014 by Hereno

[Triyun]

How would it be 15-60 minutes with boots on the ground, other than I made an announcement?  You don't have any intelligence assets there.  Finding armies is really hard.

[JEDCJT]

As I've told a few people, going to be visiting family in Georgia, leaving tomorrow. Won't be back at my PC until the 4th. I'll be able to read what you maniacs do, just not respond. Try not to destroy my nation, please :v

I'll keep Alvonia nice and warm for the ultranationalist--er, when you come back.

[Hereno]

How would it be 15-60 minutes with boots on the ground, other than I made an announcement?  You don't have any intelligence assets there.  Finding armies is really hard.

I'm done going around in circles with you, man. You need to understand that there are times where metagaming prevents good RP. Rather than trying to create realistic scenarios, you're interested in "winning" through "beating" everyone at .... roleplaying? Well, that's not my style. Jokes are only funny if both people are laughing: this is not fun for me. I don't enjoy arguing with you or having to put all of my RP on hold. And I think your advocation of "decide it by who knows the most about military tech" is self-serving and against the spirit of RP. If you want to play EU4, go play EU4, where nobody has to sit there and watch you savescum them out of their land.

[Uberstein]

Robotic Soldiers now? Doesn't seem very 2014. I do hope that they're entirely optional recognition.

[Mogar]

Yes, but considering Japan and Korea IRL are at the forefront of Androids, including "patrolling" the DMZ with robots, I figure for my cyberpunk themed nation it is rather fitting.

 

also in reference to your ignoring of holograms.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Mogar

[Mr Director]

On a somewhat related topic, what would the rules be on me using something along the lines as this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster-Miller_TALON

[Mogar]

I'm unsure, I do think some type of discussion of drones in general is going to be required, due to how many people wish to use them.

[Hereno]

Great, something else for people to make ridiculous extrapolations about. I can't wait. :rolleyes:

Edited July 27, 2014 by Hereno

[Uberstein]

Yes, but considering Japan and Korea IRL are at the forefront of Androids, including "patrolling" the DMZ with robots, I figure for my cyberpunk themed nation it is rather fitting.
 
also in reference to your ignoring of holograms.

You can very clearly see the screen so that's not a hologram? A clear screen does not a hologram make.

After brief research on Wikipedia, no, we don't have magical interactive holograms yet. And many things that people refer to as holograms are just carefully orchestrated "Pepper's Ghost" effects.

I just don't get what's so hard about sticking to 2014. Not having to deal with this kind of shit was an implication of the no-futuretech tech scale as far as I was concerned, but I'm probably wrong.

[Lynneth]

You can very clearly see the screen so that's not a hologram? A clear screen does not a hologram make.

After brief research on Wikipedia, no, we don't have magical interactive holograms yet. And many things that people refer to as holograms are just carefully orchestrated "Pepper's Ghost" effects.

I just don't get what's so hard about sticking to 2014. Not having to deal with this kind of !@#$ was an implication of the no-futuretech tech scale as far as I was concerned, but I'm probably wrong.

The techscale has always been intended to only restrict military technology. Never to restrict civilian technology.
If people want to RP 2050 cyberpunk blade runner cities, that's their right. Civilian technology doesn't have 'optional canon', unlike military stuff. Live and let live. Let them RP their thing, you go RP your thing. Just stop ranting about each other's choices.

[Uberstein]

The techscale has always been intended to only restrict military technology. Never to restrict civilian technology.
If people want to RP 2050 cyberpunk blade runner cities, that's their right. Civilian technology doesn't have 'optional canon', unlike military stuff. Live and let live. Let them RP their thing, you go RP your thing. Just stop ranting about each other's choices.

If you bothered to look at my first post, you'd see I was referring to robot soldiers? Are soldiers not military now?

[Lynneth]

If you bothered to look at my first post, you'd see I was referring to robot soldiers? Are soldiers not military now?

They're not if they're only used for police duties. Policemen don't participate in wars.

[Mogar]

The "screen" is a sheet of water.

[Uberstein]

They're not if they're only used for police duties. Policemen don't participate in wars.

Well let's hope they stay only policemen.

[Kevin Kingswell]

I am confused why those robots are being forced to be optional only. The articles for each state they are currently in use and as long as they are used only in their current form with no modifications then I see no reason why they can't be used. 

[Mogar]

I'm not using those robots specifically, I'm using a relatively advanced android in Malaysia/Thailand for an internal RP, if I were to be using the Korean Sentry Drones, then I believe that would be perfectly acceptable under the current rules.

[Uberstein]

Yes, I'd have absolutely no problem with these things being used by anybody. My problem is with android soldiers that are not available with 2014 technology. Of course, as long as they remain optional I'm satisfied, lol.

[Mogar]

for future reference, if it were considered canon by me it would be posted in Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, not anywhere else.