The GM's Hall

[Mogar]

helicopter destroyers are not destroyers, and you know exactly why anything japanese is listed as a destroyer and not as what it actually is.

[Triyun]

That was the [b]point[/b] of my post Mogar.  That the terminology of which navies use to call something something is not always an accurate reflection of what it really is, and that rather is born out of specific public policy conditions of the country.  Therefore it makes more sense rather than try to redesign battleships, to simply look up what a battleships mission is, and choose modern ships which can fulfill the role.

[The Zigur]

I'm not going to disagree with Zoot getting it preapproved.  That makes the most sense and hating him on that is short sighted.  But you guys are really stretching it in how you put labels.  Modern aegis destroyers are battleships.  They can command sea and direct fire ashore.  They can operate independently to project power and influence.  They make up battle fleets.  By any requirements but those anachronistic, they are a battleship.  However, I'll grant you that a battleship also has the gun issue.  That role in large part is though met by the Zumwalt, which is what I use, and call a battleship and should be classified as such, as well as used as a guide.  Destroyer is a generic term that's largely meaningless.  Lets look at some of the 'destroyers' of the world:

 

7500 ton soveremmy:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovremenny-class_destroyer

9800 ton arleigh burke:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arleigh_Burke-class_destroyer

14500 ton zumwalt:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer

27000 ton izumo:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-class_helicopter_destroyer

 

If we go by the first line of wiki:  In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable warship of long-endurance intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet, convoy or battle group and defend them against smaller, powerful, short-range attackers.

 

Yes all these can escort, but none of hem are limited by this function.  An arleigh burke can fire missiles at target 1000 kilometers away, 'defense against small powerful short range attackers' I don't thinks so.  Of all those ships I'd classify the Sovremenny maybe as a destroyer the Burke as a Cruiser (note its built on the same frame as the Ticonderoga cruiser and has largely similar capabilities, the Zumwalt a battleship (or battlecruiser), and the Izumo as a helicopter carrier.

 

In the 1920s when a battleship fired shells it wasn't very likely to hit stuff so it had to fire a lot of shells to put steel on the target.  The Zumwalt's precision fire controls made it require fewer guns.  Why do I need to fire 3 16 inch shells on something, if 1 155 mm will hit exactly where I want it from further away.  The same target is destroyed with lower collateral damage, and less risk to my vessel and crew?  On armor it has substituted much of this mass vs. armor game, for the sensor-shooter vs. stealth game.  I don't care what anyone says a big honking ship close in to shore is a missile sponge, and yes some warheads aren't geared for that sort of armor penetrating right now, but its not that hard to do.  And its certainly cheaper and faster than enabling a battleship to defend against them.

 

Beyond that a large Iowa size ship does not take advantage of a lot of the efficiencies that have come with modern technologies.  A much smaller crew can do the job on an freshly built hull.  So why build a bigger ship that takes more fuel, costs more to build and maintain, and is a bigger target.  Again doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

My point here is instead of trying to build an updated version of an Iowa, go back and think what a battleship's mission is, and just look for some of the ships that can accomplish this recognizing calling something a class of ship is largely meaningless as we throw around the term destroyer so loosely.

 

I have to disagree about the missiles vs cannons argument. I do not agree with the US Navy position that battleships are outdated for artillery purposes. For one, if artillery is outdated, why are Paladins and towed artillery in such heavy use in Afghanistan and the Army in general? In Afghanistan we simply did not have enough missiles and aircraft to control every area simultaneously. I believe the mothballing of the battleship has more to do with political corruption and financial misappropriation... after all, a cruise missile costs alot more than a shell, and somebody is getting that money. Shells, unlike missiles, cannot be intercepted by ECM or interception, and with modern targeting they never miss their targets by far. Battleships provide far more consistent and reliable shelling as well during long term engagements. Pilots and expensive aircraft are not risked.

 

The Army could only dream of possessing a functioning mobile 16" gun, let along three batteries of them, and yet the nature of naval warfare allows a battleship to do this. Considering the importance of controlling coastal zones, the battleship is far from irrelevant and should not have been retired.

[Malatose]

This is for the GM team. It's for basic approval for my Kirov refit.

 

Retribution-class Battlecruiser (Kirov Refit)

 

Type: Heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser
Displacement: 24,300 tons standard, 28,000 (full load)
Length: 252 m (827 ft)
Beam: 28.5 m (94 ft)
Draft: 9.1 m (30 ft)
Propulsion: 2-shaft CONAS, 2× KN-3 nuclear propulsion with 2× GT3A-688 steam turbines
140,000 shp
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h)
Range: 1,000 nautical miles (2,000 km) at 30 knots (56 km/h) (combined propulsion),
unlimited at 20 knots (37 km/h) on nuclear power
Complement: 710

 

Sensors and
processing systems:
Radars: Top Pair) AESA search RADAR, foremast

(Top Plate) AESA search radar, main mast
2 avigation radar, foremast
Sonar: Horse Jaw LF hull sonar

Horse Tail VDS (Variable Depth Sonar)
Electronic warfare
& decoys: 2 x PK-2 Decoy dispensers (400 rockets)

 

------

 

Current Weapons Layout before refit.

 

Missiles:
• 20 × P-700 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) AShM
• 14 × SS-N-14 Silex ASW cruise missiles (Ushakov only)
• 48 S-300F Fort and 48 S-300FM Fort-M (SA-N-20 Gargoyle) long-range SAM (Pyotr Velikhy)[2]
• 128 9K95 Tor (SA-N-9 Gauntlet) point defense SAM[2]
• 40 OSA-MA (SA-N-4 Gecko) PD SAM
Guns:
• 1 × twin AK-130 130 mm/L70 dual purpose gun (2 × AK-100 100 mm/L60 DP guns in Ushakov)
• 8 ×AK-630 six-barreled Gatling 30 mm/L60 PD guns (Ushakov, Lazarev)
• 6 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan gun/missile system (Nakhimov, Pyotr Velikiy[2])
Torpedoes and others:
• 1 × 10 RBU-1000 305 mm ASW rocket launchers
• 2 × 6 RBU-12000 (Udav-1) 254 mm ASW rocket launchers

 

---

 

Basic refitting.

 

The Retribution will remove the current 20 P-700 Granit missile launches and replace them with an ten smaller and more compact "advanced multi-module missile systems capable of firing a wide range of missiles and torpedoes." The system will be able to carry eight missile each.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110921-rianovosti01.htm

 

--

http://www.concern-agat.com/products/defense-products/81-concern-agat/90-uksk

 

The above system mentioned is the UKSK module being installed on all Russian ships at the moment. Each cell can hold eight missiles. The  current plan is to install ten on all Kirov cruisers, which will bring the total complement to 80 missiles.

 

"Read also: Pyotr Veliky returned to home base

The hulls on the three huge navy vessels will be renovated and the reactors will be repaired. New radio-communications equipment and radars will be installed. The main acquisition will however be the upgraded weapons with new cruise missiles and universal launch systems. The number of cruise missiles on each vessel will increase from originally 20 to 80 after the refit, according to Izvestia’s source."

 

http://barentsobserver.com/en/security/pyotr-velikys-sisters-sail-again

 

After refitting.

 

Missiles:
• 10x UKSK VLS (8x cells each) 80x P-800 Oniks/Brohmos/klub missiles
• 14 × SS-N-14 Silex ASW cruise missiles

 48 S-300F Fort and 48 S-300FM Fort-M (SA-N-20 Gargoyle) long-range SAM

• 128 9K95 Tor (SA-N-9 Gauntlet) point defense SAM
• 40 OSA-MA (SA-N-4 Gecko) PD SAM

Guns:
• 1 × twin AK-130 130 mm/L70 dual purpose gun (2 × AK-100 100 mm/L60 DP guns in Ushakov)
• 8 ×AK-630 six-barreled Gatling 30 mm/L60 PD guns
• 6 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan gun/missile system
Torpedoes and others:
• 1 × 10 RBU-1000 305 mm ASW rocket launchers
• 2 × 6 RBU-12000 (Udav-1) 254 mm ASW rocket launchers

• 10 × 533 mm ASW/ASuW torpedo tubes, Type 53 torpedo or RPK-2 Viyuga (SS-N-15) ASW missile

Edited August 5, 2014 by Malatose

[Lynneth]

So mostly it's upgrading the Radar, changing the VLS out for improved systems capable of firing more Cruise missiles, and shooting torpedos?
Is the VLS system ('3R-14UKSK-X' or whatever) in active service? Has it been used elsewhere than being built into Kirovs for modernisation?

[Malatose]

So mostly it's upgrading the Radar, changing the VLS out for improved systems capable of firing more Cruise missiles, and shooting torpedos?
Is the VLS system ('3R-14UKSK-X' or whatever) in active service? Has it been used elsewhere than being built into Kirovs for modernisation?

 

It's being used in Russian Frigates, Cruisers and Destroyers.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate

 

2 × 8 UKSK VLS cells fitted with Oniks (SS-N-26) and/or Kalibr (SS-N-27) family of missiles

[Lynneth]

Right. Well, I'd approve of it, unless one of my fellow GMs has objections.

[The Zigur]

What is the AESA radar model?

[Hereno]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123344-polish-problems/#entry3292826

 

i need nuke rolls for this thanks

[Euphaia]

Since most of my soldiers were literally just feet from the Alvonian border, wouldn't sending ICBMs/nukes at them, cause just as much nuclear devastation and loss of life on Alvonia's side of the border?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Euphaia

[Hereno]

Since most of my soldiers were literally just feet from the Alvonian border, wouldn't sending ICBMs/nukes at them, cause just as much nuclear devastation on Alvonia's side of the border?

The idea behind it was to hit on your side close enough to disrupt your warring but far enough away as to not cause Markus significant damage. But, where the nukes go also depend on where your soldiers actually are, since you didn't actually provide a detailed map or this and that. So what actually happens because of my nukes will be affected by a bunch of factors, part of which depends on where you want to have placed all of your soldiers, etc.

[Euphaia]

They were no more than 10 feet from the Alvonian border, spread across the entire area of the border.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned all that in my post.

[Hereno]

They were no more than 10 feet from the Alvonian border, spread across the entire area of the border.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned all that in my post.

It's possible - to be honest, I didn't at all do my research before posting. I guess this war is about to be hilarious. :v:

[Euphaia]

A nuke's blast radius, as best as I could find, is 1-10 miles.

 

The Hungarian-Alvonia border is probably a good 300-500 miles long, and my troops are spread all the way across it.

 

I'd wager you'd only be able to kill off 15-25%.  Not to mention there were 100,000 held in reserve, which you wouldn't know where they were being held at.

 

In any case, I am sure the GMs are going to put the RP on pause while they think this over.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Euphaia

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Might I suggest:

 

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

 

Settings for Dong Feng 5. Select burst type. You need to choose air or ground burst. What effect you're optimizing the blast for.

 

Effects radii for 5 megaton airburst* (smallest to largest): ▼

Crater inside radius: 330 m (0.34 km²)

↓

Crater depth: 500 ft

Crater lip radius: 0.66 km (1.37 km²)

 

Air blast radius (200 psi): 1.41 km (6.23 km²)
Approximately the pressure felt inside of a steam boiler on a locomotive. Optimal height of burst to maximize this effect is 0.81 km.

Fireball radius: 1.84 km (10.6 km²)
Maximum size of the nuclear fireball; relevance to lived effects depends on height of detonation. If it touches the ground, the amount of radioactive fallout is significantly increased.

Minimum burst height for negligible fallout: 1.66 km.

 

Radiation radius (5000 rem): 2.46 km (19 km²)
5000 rem radiation dose. 100% fatal exposure. Radiation radius (1000 rem): 2.88 km (26 km²)
1000 rem radiation dose; with immediate medical treatment, 95% mortality can be expected. Dying takes between several hours and several weeks. Radiation radius (600 rem): 3 km (28.3 km²)
600 rem radiation dose; with immediate medical treatment, 80% mortality can be expected. Dying takes between several hours and several weeks. Radiation radius (500 rem): 3.05 km (29.2 km²)
500 rem radiation dose; without medical treatment, there can be expected between 50% and 90% mortality from acute effects alone. Dying takes between several hours and several weeks.

 

Air blast radius (20 psi): 4.82 km (73.1 km²)

At 20 psi overpressure, heavily built concrete buildings are severely damaged or demolished; fatalities approach 100%. Optimal height of burst to maximize this effect is 3.11 km. Air blast radius (5 psi): 11.9 km (445 km²)
At 5 psi overpressure, most residential buildings collapse, injuries are universal, fatalities are widespread. Optimal height of burst to maximize this effect is 5.58 km. Air blast radius (1.5 psi): 27.7 km (2,410 km²)
At a 1.5 psi overpressure, glass windows can be expected to break. This can cause many injuries in a surrounding population who comes to a window after seeing the flash of a nuclear explosion (which travels faster than the pressure wave.) Optimal height of burst to maximize this effect is 6.86 km. Thermal radiation radius (no harm): 54.6 km (9,350 km²)
The distance at which anybody beyond would definitely suffer no damage from thermal radiation (heat). 100% probability of no significant thermal damage at this yield is 2.1 cal/cm².

 

If you airburst, they'd have to be at least 55km away, radius.. not diameter to guarantee no injury. Triyun's assertion that taking cover would be sufficient to protect an army group.. is garbage. The permeable radiation level would be so high for 3km, 6 km diameter around 80% of troops would die even with protection.. even under cover. If you fit your entire group into that area.. they're going to get toasted. However, most army groups are spread out over a sizable territory. It's more likely you'd vaporize any stacked divisions in that specific area. Those in hardened vehicles like tanks would take a lower REM dose, but just operating out and around the tanks might very well over-expose and kill them and most of those tanks will need some kind of repair if they're still operational at all. If the blast (which has a higher treat radius in an air-burst) doesn't kill them.. rems will.

 

Also, once you make your diagram using that utility.. you can put it over the strike area to get a full representation of what the effects would be like. So feel free to test your nuke on Berlin and then move it to the borders of Poland or wherever you happen to be nuking to get a gauge of how bad it is. That is, if you set to maximum yield for the RP. Anyway, incredibly useful tool for situation like this, enjoy.

 

Also setting it to below the minimum altitude required for a fallout footprint.. gives a beautiful fallout footprint forecast display based on known prevailing wind patterns.

 

In this situation given the length of the border.. nukes spaced appropriately could cover between 50-75% of it. Now.. covering it's not the same as having a 100% death percentage over that territory. That's just to cause injury.  So you would have to multiply coverage % by lethality % by troop count in the lethality radius to get total death count. Injuries however, would be very widespread.'

 

I'd project deaths in Eupahia's military to be right around 25% with about 50-75% injured for soft targets (those outside, not in vehicles) with about half of that number.. another 25% of his total forces.. as "dieing" from rem exposure. This assumption assumes a set of 5 missiles, not intercepting, detonating over the border at evenly spaced intervals and at a max yield of 5mt.

 

The civilian death count will be MASSIVELY higher. I haven't actually read the launch post to know where all 5 nukes went in detail. This post is mainly to provide information about the true nature of a 5 megaton event.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

You're assuming an army group is lining up like red coats again there.  Euph. said it himself, assuming a distributed force, 5 isn't going to be that big.  You're again putting words into my mouth for the sake of being right Mael. A few kilometers of area would be covered by at most a brigade.  As I said it will punch holes, but the post specifically said the entire force would be destroyed, that is not true, those numbers you give show that as well.

 

Now when you remember what we're [b]actually discussing[/b] rather than what you [b]want to be[/b] discussing, it is can those nukes annihalate that army.  The answer is obviously simply no it cannot.  Thus the attack would not work in the manner with which it was described by Hereno.  Nothing you posted refutes that.  Try to stay focused on actual practical outcomes.

[Hereno]

You're assuming an army group is lining up like red coats again there.  Euph. said it himself, assuming a distributed force, 5 isn't going to be that big.  You're again putting words into my mouth for the sake of being right Mael. A few kilometers of area would be covered by at most a brigade.  As I said it will punch holes, but the post specifically said the entire force would be destroyed, that is not true, those numbers you give show that as well.
 
Now when you remember what we're actually discussing rather than what you want to be discussing, it is can those nukes annihalate that army.  The answer is obviously simply no it cannot.  Thus the attack would not work in the manner with which it was described by Hereno.  Nothing you posted refutes that.  Try to stay focused on actual practical outcomes.

No attack is ever described exactly as it turns out after other RPers have their input. It was never my intention to imply that Euphaia's entire force was actually destroyed. My character's goal when launching the nukes was to destroy all of his troops, but his wishes are canon only as his wishes. SDI rolls must be done, and damage actually assessed and reported by the people controlling those assets. I agree with Euphaia that the correct damages and casualties should be reported.

[Triyun]

Right and what I had said which was called rubbish, was that killing all his troops would not be feasible.  It is true that 5 nukes could not kill them all.  I never denied within the inner circles they could do damage, simply nukes alone would not be enough.  With Markus's army withdrawing that's not done.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Triyun

[Hereno]

e: disregard

Edited August 6, 2014 by Hereno

[Lynneth]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123344-polish-problems/#entry3292826

 

i need nuke rolls for this thanks

Euphaia has no SDI. The 7 missiles directed at him hit unless Alvonia or Yugoslavia intercept.

 

Horo meanwhile has an SDI, so let's roll 8 times.

1-60 boom, 61-100 goes through.

 

 

4 hits, 4 misses.

 

 

 

 

As for rerolling, Hereno, it's possible. It's also in bad taste. Ty/Californian did it at least 2 times that I remember. How you handle it is your choice.

[Mogar]

Obligatory formal complaint of a carrier group just magically appearing in the Indian Ocean without any ability for me or anyone else to react to it. If he had gone through the Suez, Voodoo and Biohazard, as well as Triyun would have known about it, and if he took the long way it would have been at minimum three weeks to actually get from iceland to the south Indian ocean.

[Lynneth]

A very valid complaint, especially considering that Zoot then used the magic teleport to attack another player's assets, ie your fleet and island. Any of the mentioned parties would've at least stopped the Norse fleet to question their motives and destination.

Also, in the Atlantic, Tikal would likely have seen the Norse fleet's movements, got curious and informed its allies about it.

 

Zoot, do you have anything to add to this or defend your actions?

[Mogar]

I can't say for certain obviously, but I have diplomatic discussions with all of them due to my concerns of foreign aggression in my surrounding Oceans(precisely what transpired, in fact), and while I have no idea if I would be informed of the movements by the listed parties, I can say with certainty I would have been looking for such movements. I have RP'd out my own in character paranoia of external threats, especially those from regions beyond simply my borders.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

With my satellite apperature radar and my imaging satellites, I would have detect his fleet when he got a reasonable distance from land and then been able to zoom in to determine all those sizable blips were a coherent fleet as well.. and if I didn't get him on the first pass.. by the time he transited the atlantic I would have had at  least a couple hundred or more other attempts to detect and id him at sea. You can't move a fleet these days wtihout me detecting it within a day or so.

 

Unless it hugs (20 nm) a coast line.. like norways.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

With my satellite apperature radar and my imaging satellites, I would have detect his fleet when he got a reasonable distance from land and then been able to zoom in to determine all those sizable blips were a coherent fleet as well.. and if I didn't get him on the first pass.. by the time he transited the atlantic I would have had at  least a couple hundred or more other attempts to detect and id him at sea. You can't move a fleet these days wtihout me detecting it within a day or so.

 

Unless it hugs (20 nm) a coast line.. like norways.

 

Considering the United States still has trouble tracking global shipping on the open seas, yes you can.