The GM's Hall

[Yerushalayim]

So, you are intercepting communications sent from the Med to Northern Italy, which don't even pass through your territory, nor do you have RPd any method of interception in the Gulf of Genoa, where it'd be required in this instance. Feel free to explain this method of interception...

Not part of the argument, so apologies for butting in, but unless the communication posts contained the details of how they were transmitted, it'd be hard for Markus to specify exactly how he'd be intercepting them. So unless y'all were that specific, it's not exactly fair to demand the same specificity from him, especially given that methods change depending on the type of transmission (e.g.: intercepting internet based communications versus intercepting land line telephone versus intercepting radio transmission).

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Not part of the argument, so apologies for butting in, but unless the communication posts contained the details of how they were transmitted, it'd be hard for Markus to specify exactly how he'd be intercepting them. So unless y'all were that specific, it's not exactly fair to demand the same specificity from him, especially given that methods change depending on the type of transmission (e.g.: intercepting internet based communications versus intercepting land line telephone versus intercepting radio transmission).

The delivery of British Surface to Air Missile systems to the Northern Italians was now completed.  As the systems rolled off the ships into the combat system military advisers would accompany them to provide the Italians with instructions on how to use them, while E-2s would patrol neutral air space providing monitoring ready o send in the CAP from the CSGs of he Mediterranean Fleet to defend British personnel should the Alvonians choose preemption. 

A message was sent to the Cisalpine Republic delivered directly from the Med fleet on an encoded frequency.

 

"The British Crown reasserts its position to your whole claim.  Your missiles should give you the capabilities to make the Alvonian Air Force unable to control the skies over your territory formerly of Snow Haven.  We stand ready to assist you further in self defense should you need it."

I would say an encoded radio frequency, not an e-mail. So, there's a reason I'm asking how it was intercepted.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

The spyroll should be to intercept the message, rather than decrypt it. Trying to decrypt it would be useless anyway, because the information would be far too old to be of any use by the time you managed to break the encryption.

Furthermore, you wouldn't even know that it was from Triyun's military. Many communications these days are encrypted (I don't know how Triyun is sending his message, but the point stands), and there isn't really a meaningful way to ascertain what an individual batch of data is about. When you send data, it is broken up into smaller pieces (packets), each of which takes a different route to get to its destination.

Server farms (assuming that they are latched onto public routers) would not be enough to identify useful data as it passed through (even if the data came through as one big chunk [which it wouldn't anyway]), and, as stated, there is little chance it'd be decrypted in time to still be meaningful.

This is assuming it's internet based rather than radio or something, but the point on decryption still stands.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Horo the Wise Wolf

[Triyun]

Yeah modern naval communications (as I did specify it was from the fleet would either be sent line of site which you wouldn't receive it or from space.  If it was bounced off a LEO site it would be too small an area for you to detect it.  If it was off a EHF GEO it would be both a pencil beam transmission and equally importantly would be near uninterceptable anyways (this is the method I would really do it).  Neither would follow through any method which Alvonia has.  Further if Alvonia did want to monitor communications on the internet it would have to be done with having geography of position for internet traffic and the player not to take precautions in how they sent it.  The biggest way for this to happen in a place like Alvonia or really any place is to have bugs on physical locations of traffic.  The US with its central position is much better positioned to do that than you are.

[Hereno]

Something being simply "encrypted" doesn't mean much of anything. What matters is the type of encryption. Inevitably, if asked, Triyun will be forced to specify that his encryption is AES-256 or something else equally impenetrable, essentially meaning that it is impossible to intercept and decode any transmissions between states that someone doesn't want to be read. Such is the world we live in. As far as I'm concerned, Markus, there's no way for you to make that spy roll. And yes, in case you all haven't caught on, this was my opinion before I pretended to be ignorant so you'd all rev up your lie-cannons and elawyer machines.

On that note, it is my opinion that Triyun's involvement in this dispute is entirely OOC motivated and should be wiped, given FHIC has not been around since before Britain came into existence. Alvonia has a treaty with France; as far as I know, there were not even relations between Britain and the Cisalpine Republic before this event occurred, let alone anything even remotely resembling a reason for Triyun to be engaging in military actions in tandem. However, there's nothing wrong with what Hungary or Romania did, because Alvonia did just fight a war with them.

You can consider all of that my GM-official™ position.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Hereno

[Centurius]

I'm kind of surprised this is even needed but following a discussion on IRC I'd like to ask clarification from the GM's on technology.

 

Are players allowed to use civilian technology that is not within their tech year to launch or support military systems?

[Markus Wilding]

It's my understanding that no, civilian tech outside of one's tech range may not be used to support military infrastructure or technology. Anything that the military uses HAS to be from one's tech range.

[Mogar]

requesting two spyrolls, the first to intrude into his computer systems to get information regarding his military makeup, the second to find information upon his radar facilities computer hardware, in order to  create and then place a worm into his military computer systems that will later destroy his radar abilities, which of course will require more spy rolls but will be a problem for tomorrow based upon the success of these rolls.

RP here.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Mogar

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

You going to RP placing the virus there if the spy roll passes? They don't just magically lock on to radar systems, no matter how well you make them. I don't think they're connected to the internet either.

Speaking of which, making such a worm would take a decent amount of time to create. Any prior RP? Furthermore, you can't just magically increase the temperature of a system - you need some way of doing it. Also, computers don't destroy themselves when they get a bit too hot. They turn off.

On an unrelated note, what program isn't entirely code?

[Mogar]

The plan was to RP placing the virus and letting it work its way through the Tongzhi computer systems until it reached the radar systems specifically,with multiple spyrolls to reflect this.. The computers stuxnet affected were also not connected to the internet,  it worked by infecting computers globally and then when it finally reached the computer system it was designed for, activated its intended program, and they are programmed to shut off yes, but if that is overridden, then it will go until the processor is damaged, making the computer and therefore the radar system inoperable.

 

the statement was written with the intent to prove that there was no words within the programming that were in japanese, korean, or any language my nation uses, to distance myself from it later on.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Actually, speaking as someone who has a degree in this field and an a+ certification by comptia. Radar systems have a number of ways they could potentially be identified due to the unique nature of their function. The processors, the drivers for the hardware, however, it would require additional intelligence to know what to look for. You could, in theory, propagate a worm that could navigate a military network. But there's two concerns here..

 

1. You have to get onto the LAN to get the virus into the systems you want to locate. This requires the military be on the web or a person with access to the LAN. Or their military must have a wifi that is hackable or vulnerable to man in the middle attacks.

2. You have to know the programming or the part identifiers being used to create the products in question. Kind of like for the worm that destroyed Iran's centrifuges. We knew the processor IDs because a western company manufactured them.

 

If Beauty a has their military net tied in any fashion to the internet, they're nuts. 1 is unlikely because protection is simple enough even consumers can address it. Unplug from the internet and use currently uncrackable encryption.

 

Two is unlikely if all the parts are processed in the nation of origin and the military is smart enough to have the industry responsible tied into their contract demands.

 

However on the third point.. that computers cannot overheat. Not entirely true. I enjoyed cooking modems in the old days before they included temperature sensors in motherboards.. but anything from say.. 2000 on, not going to be vulnerable. Modern computers will turn themselves off. Old ones would burn themselves out.

 

No programs are entirely code. Machine code relies on identifying specific parts and the code at that level is represented in electrical binary. A certain binary code activates a certain gate/processor/pathway. So at a certain level there is a mechanical function to all code. Object oriented code is translated into straight up binary, binary into machine, and machine into physical processes on the chip/mb. That's why if your connection was fast enough in the old days you could burn out some phone modems. Their parts were so physically sensitive that enough throughput at a sufficient rate could cook the modem.

 

Stuxnet was delivered on a finger drive by a spy/plant. It was revealed by the CIA. It was delivered by a spy reasonably close to the target. Doesn't mean you couldn't rp and spy roll to get a plant in the military that operates their radar to do it.

 

http://www.cnet.com/news/stuxnet-delivered-to-iranian-nuclear-plant-on-thumb-drive/

Edited August 24, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Stuxnet was also written for the exact specifications of the equipment it was targetting. Do you have access to copies of Tongzhi radar systems, let alone have knowledge of their environment, to make the virus in the first place?

You're not going to override the temperature shut down. That is BIOS territory, and something your virus cannot touch.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

BIOS can to be hit by viruses just as easily as you can flash it. They are rare though.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4809843_removing-bios-virus.html

 

The only reason that the modern computer cannot be overheated is the temperature shut offs are not programmed controlled when it comes to manufacturer specifications (if the manufacturer is smart) it is actually controlled purely by physical processes. Most graphics cards can shut themselves down. However, temperature controls that are bios or fan dependent, can easily be targeted as much software is made to allow custom controls on fans and voltage levels for overclocking purposes.

 

Horo, you're talking about something you don't seem to understand as well as you think although your first point is correct, your second is wrong on some systems, and the third is wrong on all systems. Especially if they use a UEFI.

 

List of Bios viruses I find references to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH_%28computer_virus%29

http://www.webroot.com/blog/2011/09/13/mebromi-the-first-bios-rootkit-in-the-wild/

 

Bios Viruses tend to target a particular MFGr's hardware and software. Which limits the scope of their capability. That's probably why they are rare. Most modern viruses seek mass damage or mass pay out, so scope limited targeting isn't useful.

 

Technically all you really need to do to most modern systems to damage them is shut down their fans. Don't believe me? Unhook your fan from your processor and run it for a few days and see how long you last.. then again.. it might prevent you from returning from the internet without considerable cost so I technically recommend sincerely against that test of your faith. The rest of us might find it funny, but I wouldn't want you hurt for our amusement. The only way it won't overheat is if you use a passive heat sink.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

then make spyrolls for whatever the fuck they just said, and then tomorrow give me two more, and we will continue the process until rotavele is satisfied I can know their military numbers.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Suggested ordering of spy rolls:

 

1. Plant spy #1 and get equipment specs to properly target virus.

2. Get plant  #2 close to military LAN to install virus.

3. Successfully upload virus for it to execute.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

edited my post and spyroll request to more accordingly reflect the nature of the RP.

[Beauty]

then make spyrolls for whatever the $%&@ they just said, and then tomorrow give me two more, and we will continue the process until rotavele is satisfied I can know their military numbers.

Just as an FYI you said earlier about spying which that's fine, and Tongzhi won't care icly. Destroying radar will be a different ball game.

Also to role play it you're going to need their help or a google search for how these things work :P

Edited August 24, 2014 by Beauty

[Maelstrom Vortex]

*Exports Druk Yul virus Hunter-seeker algorithm to Tongzhi under the table...

 

:P

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

At this time, Mebromi is not designed to infect 64-bit operating system and it is not able to infect the system if run with limited privileges.

Basic computer security. Non-issue for military installations.

This routine only works on some machines. Much emphasis has been put on machines with motherboards based on the Intel 430TX chipset, but by far the most important variable in CIH's success in writing to a machine's BIOS is the type of Flash ROM chip in the machine. Different Flash ROM chips (or chip families) have different write-enable routines specific to those chips. CIH makes no attempt to test for the Flash ROM type in its victim machines, and has only one write-enable sequence.

Even CIH needed to gain kernel mode access to reach the BIOS, though at the time the virus was exploiting a privilege escalation bug in Windows 9x operating system

It works on one type of chip, and was entirely dependent on a Windows bug so it could even do anything.


I have yet to see a single BIOS attack that could realistically damage a military installation. In fact, most viruses today work by using exploits in their environment to actually get them to do what the creator intended, and for a virus to suddenly magically work on someone else's military system... Sounds like powergaming.

Technically all you really need to do to most modern systems to damage them is shut down their fans.

Umm... Obviously???

Suggested ordering of spy rolls:
 
1. Plant spy #1 and get equipment specs to properly target virus.
2. Get plant  #2 close to military LAN to install virus.
3. Successfully upload virus for it to execute.

1.5) Spend several months actually making it;
2) Get into the network somehow and then infect something, plus have a manner of infecting other computers.

[Hereno]

This isn't a ruling, but it is my thoughts on the matter. I'm prepared to give Mogar one spy roll in order to ascertain the technical details of the Tongzhi systems in order to begin making the virus. And I believe that, once uploaded, it is well within the limitations of the technology for Japan to then be able to look through the data on the closed military network. However, I'm not so sure about letting the virus destroy any radar systems. And I think it would also require physically accessing a Tongzhi military computer in order to upload the virus, meaning you're probably going to have to roll to have someone bust into one of the Tongzhi facilities, which is very dangerous. That said, Zoot was able to "hack" into Nutmeg's Alaskan computer systems and then shut down his radar without having made actual physical contact with anything or having to gain any other information. And I don't recall anyone having had a problem with that when it happened. I'm aware that it is not the place of the GMs to set precedent, but I can't help but to take into account similar rulings when thinking about how to interpret our non-existent rules regarding "hacking" and such. I'm also wondering why there's no actual debate over what Japan would or would not be able to know without having to do any spy rolls, because that's at least as important as this debate.

[Beauty]

This isn't a ruling, but it is my thoughts on the matter. I'm prepared to give Mogar one spy roll in order to ascertain the technical details of the Tongzhi systems in order to begin making the virus. And I believe that, once uploaded, it is well within the limitations of the technology for Japan to then be able to look through the data on the closed military network. However, I'm not so sure about letting the virus destroy any radar systems. And I think it would also require physically accessing a Tongzhi military computer in order to upload the virus, meaning you're probably going to have to roll to have someone bust into one of the Tongzhi facilities, which is very dangerous. That said, Zoot was able to "hack" into Nutmeg's Alaskan computer systems and then shut down his radar without having made actual physical contact with anything or having to gain any other information. And I don't recall anyone having had a problem with that when it happened. I'm aware that it is not the place of the GMs to set precedent, but I can't help but to take into account similar rulings when thinking about how to interpret our non-existent rules regarding "hacking" and such. I'm also wondering why there's no actual debate over what Japan would or would not be able to know without having to do any spy rolls, because that's at least as important as this debate.

 

Theres a whole thread discussing it that most seem to have ignored. Its called military stats discussion.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

This isn't a ruling, but it is my thoughts on the matter. I'm prepared to give Mogar one spy roll in order to ascertain the technical details of the Tongzhi systems in order to begin making the virus. And I believe that, once uploaded, it is well within the limitations of the technology for Japan to then be able to look through the data on the closed military network. However, I'm not so sure about letting the virus destroy any radar systems. And I think it would also require physically accessing a Tongzhi military computer in order to upload the virus, meaning you're probably going to have to roll to have someone bust into one of the Tongzhi facilities, which is very dangerous. That said, Zoot was able to "hack" into Nutmeg's Alaskan computer systems and then shut down his radar without having made actual physical contact with anything or having to gain any other information. And I don't recall anyone having had a problem with that when it happened. I'm aware that it is not the place of the GMs to set precedent, but I can't help but to take into account similar rulings when thinking about how to interpret our non-existent rules regarding "hacking" and such. I'm also wondering why there's no actual debate over what Japan would or would not be able to know without having to do any spy rolls, because that's at least as important as this debate.

To figure out the specs of his system, you'd need some kind of tangible access to that system. Doing it through a network (be it the military one its on or otherwise) wouldn't get you that much information because you have no idea how to network with the system, and it'd be pretty difficult to try and abstract how it works and go from there. I'd say the same for the radar systems to be destroyed as well, because viruses don't just enter networks and start wrecking things straight off. They have to have a way of spreading and infecting other machines (which would require getting said machines to accept the virus from another system in the first place, be it obfuscated with other data or not) which really isn't that simple, especially when you don't actually have a 100% idea what you're working with. Malware nowadays tend to spread through exploits and vulnerabilities found in widely used software (Windows, Java, etc.) rather than the custom set-up a military would use.

Anyway. To get the actual details of the software on these systems, you'd need physical access to the machine, and then some way of copying all of the data on that machine (basically, get the OS), and getting it out of there. However, it would take a huge team of highly dedicated workers a pretty long time to ever find any vulnerabilities in the system, because they're just not easy to find. Heartbleed, for example, was made possible by an extension to OpenSSL made in 2011. However, it took three years for people to actually notice what was, relatively-speaking, a fairly simple bug and exploit. This is also bearing in mind that OpenSSL is open source, as opposed to whatever the military system runs on radar systems, which would not have its source code readily available.

[Beauty]

How long does it take if a Radar system over heated to get it back up?

[Uberstein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIRAFFE_Radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Control

 

Just have mobile backups? That's what I do.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

How long does it take if a Radar system over heated to get it back up?

 

If the computer hardware fries it'd only take a 1 hour  (tops) swap of the motherboard, cpu, and possibly graphics chip. If it fried the generator equipment, that could be longer as replacement parts might have to be fabricated.