Over 50k poll for CNRP2 (2)

[Evangeline Anovilis]

This is just typical egotistical !@#$%^&* and a perfect example of the elitist notion that the good stuff should only be kept in the hands of a few. Your RP quality is no better (or worse for that matter) than most of the other people here and I'm more than willing to bet that, out of the other 10,000 people in the game, at least a few can replicate that quality. More to the point, you've already got your piece of the cake so you can shut up, eat it and let other people have a piece.

So, I'm egoistical and elitist for asking what makes a "fresh" nation better than me? I don't let others have their share of the cake? I somehow think my RP is better? Honestly, I never said that I'm a better RPer or even a great RPer. I just asked in what regard you think the "fresh" people are better and more deserving to be included than me (or any of the "old" people). I think that is a pretty valid question, given that I get the vibe that somehow I'm supposed to be sorry for taking up map space and breathing the same IC air as others.

 

I can understand your defending someone you respect but it means nothing in this case. What she said is egotistical and tasteless really. I've spent considerable time looking at stuff from everybody across the board and I can say with certainty that while Evangeline RPs with quality, it is not somehow more special or unique than everyone else's, and in fact, a lot of other people exhibit the same degree of quality.

 

It also annoys me that she somehow thinks she is entitled to a place in CNRP2 over a new person simply because of her quality. That isn't the case at all. Especially because she is already involved with an RP. Why should she be prioritised over new blood simply because she can RP well?

I may not be entitled over new people, but how are new people entitled over me? Just because I'm in CNRP, which is a seperate RP, I think I should not be treaded much different than any other person. What will come next? That I'm getting kicked out of all CNRPs, because I'm in an RP on the GPA boards? Or because I RPed already in the NPO?

 

Honestly, I find this ridiculous and I'd be very happy if people not just lash out at me like that. I understand, you people want to have limits on how much power a single person can accumulate and so large-NS nations need to be treaded differently. But I'd appreciate it if this would happen in a way that is respectful and not filled with accusations and hatred like this.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

It also annoys me that she somehow thinks she is entitled to a place in CNRP2 over a new person simply because of her quality. That isn't the case at all. Especially because she is already involved with an RP. Why should she be prioritised over new blood simply because she can RP well?

She is as entitled as everyone else is, I don't see her demanding the place of another. Why are you so fixated on this notion of the evil 50k nation? Stop putting your words in the mouths of others.

[Helios]

We have to actually get the rule discussions of the most basic of things over and voted upon before I begin a grandiose expansion plan, people have been fairly conservative with their land claims and I expect that to continue for the time being.

 

Evangeline is blunt and direct, it comes off as arrogance at times but she doesn't mean anything by it.(most of the time)

 

I am appreciative of that, but nobody who has rolled a nation that's over 50k so far has any interest in becoming a hegemony.

 

1. Agreed.

 

2. I will take your word for it given you know her better than I do.

 

3. Let us hope that this remains the case for the foreseeable future.

 

 

 

So, I'm egoistical and elitist for asking what makes a "fresh" nation better than me? I don't let others have their share of the cake? I somehow think my RP is better? Honestly, I never said that I'm a better RPer or even a great RPer. I just asked in what regard you think the "fresh" people are better and more deserving to be included than me (or any of the "old" people). I think that is a pretty valid question, given that I get the vibe that somehow I'm supposed to be sorry for taking up map space and breathing the same IC air as others.

 

What you said came off, to me at any rate, with an air of elitism and egoism about it. I apologise if that was not the case. To answer your question, I firmly believe that new people should be prioritised over existing players, at least until it can be determined at a later time that they are or are not committed to good, creative roleplay. One of the other problems that I should have made clear before is that we are talking about the same group of people playing with each other over and over again. Is there anything wrong with this? Not necessarily. But it's obvious that new players are needed to prevent OOC/IC transgressions of the past from playing a role in this new RP.

 

I may not be entitled over new people, but how are new people entitled over me? Just because I'm in CNRP, which is a seperate RP, I think I should not be treaded much different than any other person. What will come next? That I'm getting kicked out of all CNRPs, because I'm in an RP on the GPA boards? Or because I RPed already in the NPO?

 

Much of this is answered above however I will say that new people are not entitled over you and if that is the message you got from what I said then I duly apologise. What I should've said rather, is that it's preferable and positive for the long-term sustenance of the RP if we introduce new players to the RP instead of including someone who is well-known and already has a solid position in an RP just like this one.

 

Honestly, I find this ridiculous and I'd be very happy if people not just lash out at me like that. I understand, you people want to have limits on how much power a single person can accumulate and so large-NS nations need to be treaded differently. But I'd appreciate it if this would happen in a way that is respectful and not filled with accusations and hatred like this.

 

I'm glad you understand however it is still more than that. I am one of perhaps only three or four people (if that) who are arguing against the introduction of 50k+ nations (and are failing at present). I am truly sorry if you feel that my argument is disrespectful and full of hatred; for the record I do not hate you and nor do I have any qualms about you specifically being a participant in this particular RP. But right now I feel like I am the only one who is employing common sense in the belief that we should hold off on accepting 50k+ nations to the RP. Moreover, no-one has yet presented to me a solid argument as to why we should not do this.

[Helios]

She is as entitled as everyone else is, I don't see her demanding the place of another. Why are you so fixated on this notion of the evil 50k nation? Stop putting your words in the mouths of others.

 

I can see you two are virtually joined at the hip so I will refer you to my answers above.

[Hereno]

I don't see any reason for us to be separated by NS. I just think the rules need to be so that you don't have to have played CN for 6+ years in order to ever be relevant or achieve regional power status. I'm not even against one nation achieving regional dominance/superpower status, you can't just have that last for multiple years. Play it for a few months, then let it fall apart and try something else. RP is not a competition. Although being competitive can be fun, the ultimate goal is to create a story and see a simulation.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Hereno

[Captain Enema]

True fact about Eva.

 

He's egotistical and edgy just because he's Eva. Nothing to do with his rp. 

[Captain Enema]

I don't see any reason for us to be separated by NS. I just think the rules need to be so that you don't have to have played CN for 6+ years in order to ever be relevant or achieve regional power status. I'm not even against one nation achieving regional dominance/superpower status, you can't just have that last for multiple years. Play it for a few months, then let it fall apart and try something else. RP is not a competition. Although being competitive can be fun, the ultimate goal is to create a story and see a simulation.

^this so much this.. great stories above all else. 

 

\

[Justinian the Mighty]

I don't see any reason for us to be separated by NS. I just think the rules need to be so that you don't have to have played CN for 6+ years in order to ever be relevant or achieve regional power status. I'm not even against one nation achieving regional dominance/superpower status, you can't just have that last for multiple years. Play it for a few months, then let it fall apart and try something else. RP is not a competition. Although being competitive can be fun, the ultimate goal is to create a story and see a simulation.

 

Now you're finally making sense to me! I wish you had said this a couple days ago.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

I don't see any reason for us to be separated by NS. I just think the rules need to be so that you don't have to have played CN for 6+ years in order to ever be relevant or achieve regional power status. I'm not even against one nation achieving regional dominance/superpower status, you can't just have that last for multiple years. Play it for a few months, then let it fall apart and try something else. RP is not a competition. Although being competitive can be fun, the ultimate goal is to create a story and see a simulation.

 

So then, and please correct me if I misunderstand you, why is the cap necessary if everyone is attempting to make good stories?

 

I don't think that anyone here wants to make a bad simulation. Shouldn't the idea then be more inclusive?

 

EDIT: Moreso, why should anything be optional recognition then either?

Edited May 24, 2014 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Hereno]

So then, and please correct me if I misunderstand you, why is the cap necessary if everyone is attempting to make good stories?
 
I don't think that anyone here wants to make a bad simulation. Shouldn't the idea then be more inclusive?
 
EDIT: Moreso, why should anything be optional recognition then either?

You would make a really good politician the way you spun that. Let's backtrack for a second. The entire reason this RP exists is because there is something about CNRP that caused a split. Namely, burgeoning superpower nations, which are only defensible due to a combination of mechanics based on CN NS and large in-game nations. Hence why we are spending a long time addressing the rules in regards to how nation statistics are derived. We tried a "more inclusive" (see: "less fair", I can play word games too) way of running things. It ended in the creation of CNRP2.

I remember looking back over the threads about the potential-but-averted split/non-recognition of Athens and Tianxia this past winter, and saw the same thing going on: eloquent speakers such as yourself advocating that we address the problem by maintaining the status quo. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. It's time for the people who have invested themselves in CNRP2 to try our hand at creating a better version of CNRP. If you can't support that, then there's no reason for you to be involved. Edited May 24, 2014 by Hereno

[Captain Enema]

Here is the rub of things.

 

We've got 42 or something days to come up with a means of sorting this out. 

 

What's it going to be?

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Let everyone have x soldiers, y planes and z naval vessels.

[Captain Enema]

that's a possibility.

 

What I think is this is something I'd prefer not to discuss in public. 

 

Too many lookie loos and bitter old hags and their .083 cents. 

[Hereno]

that's a possibility.
 
What I think is this is something I'd prefer not to discuss in public. 
 
Too many lookie loos and bitter old hags and their .083 cents.

Then where?

[Uberstein]

Then where?

I believe he means a PM between all members of CNRP2. At least, that's the only alternative I find possibly acceptable, and thus I hope it's what he meant.

[Markus Wilding]

I believe he means a PM between all members of CNRP2. At least, that's the only alternative I find possibly acceptable, and thus I hope it's what he meant.

Impossible, the forum only allows 20 or so members in on one PM at a time, and we have plenty more than that.

[kitex]

With regards to the rule of nations being of 50k NS or above not being recognized, I would like to recommend an alternative. How about nations that are below 50k cannot be attacked? That solves the problem of protecting the less powerful nations and also allows nations about 50k NS to be recognize

[Uberstein]

Impossible, the forum only allows 20 or so members in on one PM at a time, and we have plenty more than that.

Well, then I don't see how this discussion could be made "private" and still include the relevant members...

[Subtleknifewielder]

Might I, as a neutral observer who will probably never rejoin CNRP, and likely never join this, either, helpfully suggest this (apparently not previously considered) solution as a compromise, as a modification of Kitex's proposal? Take a page from CN's book, use ingame strength to judge whom a higher-tier nation is and is not allowed to attack. So if they would normally be out of your strength range ingame, below your level, you cannot attack them. You can only attack upwards in regards to being out of range. 

 

Obviously, if provoked with obviously hostile acts (terrorist acts, someone trying to steal territory, etc) they can defend themselves, but not to the point of killing off the offending nation, which was in part what led to the schism in CNRP, from what I can see (the ability to completely role and take over an enemy nation).

[Uberstein]

Subtle has a decent idea, that at least warrants discussion. As far as I'm concerned the 50k NS limit is there in similar fashion to weight categories in wrestling, or school-size categories in collegiate sports. The idea is that to maintain competitive balance (because it's a game), people/entities playing within should be of similar level.

[jesbro]

Might I, as a neutral observer who will probably never rejoin CNRP, and likely never join this, either, helpfully suggest this (apparently not previously considered) solution as a compromise, as a modification of Kitex's proposal? Take a page from CN's book, use ingame strength to judge whom a higher-tier nation is and is not allowed to attack. So if they would normally be out of your strength range ingame, below your level, you cannot attack them. You can only attack upwards in regards to being out of range. 

 

Obviously, if provoked with obviously hostile acts (terrorist acts, someone trying to steal territory, etc) they can defend themselves, but not to the point of killing off the offending nation, which was in part what led to the schism in CNRP, from what I can see (the ability to completely role and take over an enemy nation).

 

Am really likeing this idea. It actually keeps to the core rules of Cybernations itself and seems like a good idea.

[Mogar]

I would not mind a further discussion about that Idea, we would have to come up with exact numbers, but I appreciate your input Subtleknifewielder

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Alrighty, from what I get, there are the following ideas around. Personally, I do of course have an opinion on them, though I know it is not my decision to make. I'm a bit tired, as I had to get up early to go vote on EU parliament, so don't expect me to talk eloquently.

 

So, for starters, Horo suggested to just let people all have the same numbers. Now, while maybe a noble and egalitarian notion, I would like to highlight three things here. First, will this be tiered (as in, one set for 0-x NS, another for x-y NS, one for y-50k NS and one for over 50k) or will this be equality across the board? This first question is pretty much up for the community how it wants to play it.  Both ways are viable and there's no difference in the technical issues that come with them. Second, as a first technical issue, Horo on IRC brought up the issue of everyone just going with US equipment, because people who might go with something less would possibly lose out. Like, personally, Horo and I are using PLA and RoC Arfmed Forces equipment. While not completely terrible, there's a bit of a difference in the strength of a F-22 and a Su-30 MKK or J-16 (best we got). So, unless you either don't mind everyone essentially fighting each other with exactly the same stuff, apart from the few who are fully willing to be crappy militaries, a solution would be needed for this problem. Because currently, Horo and I can do this, because we are both large enough and the odds are, noone has the capabilities to fight a land war in China against us and win. Third issue I see here, is that there is an open question about what all would be standardised. Soldiers, aircraft, ships and tanks are obvious candidates. Artillery? IFVs? APCs? tank destroyers? helicopters? UAVs? Minesweepers? FACs? AWACS? Refueling aircraft? How far does standardisation go?

 

Then we got Subtle, who has an idea of NS ranges. sounds quite nice, apart from three issues I got with it. First, if we go with this, I guess NS gets uncapped and you could have people like Lynneth running around with full armament. 50k+ NS nations would field millions of soldiers. Sure, they can't use them on the offense... but I could just gobble up land one after the other "legitimately" and in the end, be still too big for anyone to "do something about it". Would, in my opinion, need more consideration for that. Second, what is a legitimate reason for attacking a smaller guy? Sure, terrorism appears obvious. But what's with less obvious matters? State-organised drug running? Attacking a nation I pledged to protect? Being a complete crackpot who threatens me with nuclear arms? Is that legitimate? Is this up to the GMs to decide on a case-by-case basis (with all the issues that could cause)? And not rolling the person is still leaving quite a large range of options. For example, while I did not send forces after Tywin, though he pretty much insulted my nation, made a huge fuss, spied on an Asian nation and proclaimed he'd be able to smuggle drugs into my nation, I did not do anything much on the offensive. Sole show of force I did plan was to send a token force and disprove his "triangle of death". But if I'd actually be serious about him and the sole limitation is not to kick him out of Hawaii, well, it still would mean I could just take down his military, then firebomb his towns, throw a load of herbicide and defoliant on the Isles and then maybe leave behind a good number of cluster bombs with anti-personal mines to keep him occupied for a while. You think that'd be still fine? Lastly, in my personal opinion, I do not like this idea of an artificial barrier. No, I don't think every small insult warrants a full-scale invasion and extermination effort or even any military action, but I think essentially, people should be able to freely interact with each other, not just hide behind some artificial NS created barrier.

 

My personal favourite (also because I offered it before), is that there simple be a ceiling for what we can have. Just put a hard cap at some reasonable numbers and if a nation joins with three times that, well, they'll have to stay with the caps. It's pretty easy to apply, it serves the same as the 50k+ NS ban, just that it reduces nations of larger people to a reasonable size that lets them join, without having to spend months of sending away tech. Yes, some of us can't just sell down. This could also lead to a lower ceiling, which regulates how many soldiers and stuff a nation can have at the very least, so those very small people have to worry less about actually mattering. Sure, they still got to play their cards well, but if we, for example give people 100,000 soldiers minimum, then even half a dozen small people could take on the largest person, provided they aren't complete idiots. Here, I'd limit soldiers, tanks and ships. Aircraft are far less of an issue, rest could stay common sense. I also see this as a good way to get rid of an issue that are infra-heavy high 40k NS nations, a possibility that would be demonstrated by me with 3.5k less tech (I'd actually be fielding the same stuff I already use now, just with an upper limit of over 900,000 soldiers, because tech matters pretty little at that level).

 

As long as issues are worked out there, I think each of these systems has its merits and faults, so, in the end, I do not care too much, as long as it resolves the overall issue.

[Hereno]

I would like war range restrictions, but really I think the problem can be solved without outright refusing to allow someone to attack someone else. If we just cap military appropriately, it won't be a problem.

[Euphaia]

Over 50k nation strength I assume?

 

No offense to those nations' handlers in the slightest, but they pretty much already rule the roost in the other CNRP and do whatever they want there.

 

I've only been RPing for two months and already feel like I'm about to get rolled despite my best efforts to keep Euphaia mostly neutral and friendly to other nations.

 

I say let the big nations have at it in the other CNRP, and leave CNRP to the smaller guys who can't even hope to compete with the big nations.

 

It seems like the most fair option to me.  It's not like they can't have RP at all, there is still the first CNRP world where they can do almost anything they want to do in it.