Over 50k poll for CNRP2 (2)

[Zoot Zoot]

I believe that the second option has its merits. Whilst I cannot speak for Eva or Horo, I am on the map due to the good graces of Mogar and TBM at the moment. I would very much like to stay with the CNRP2 community to see how it plays out and develop my nation.

For that reason, I will abstain my vote because being a 50k+ nation, my vote is obviously going to be biased in my own favour.

I do hope that we can RP together however, in the future.

[Captain Enema]

3rd voting option should be for zoot to get a better avatar. 

[Helios]

You're right, there's no community below 50k NS. How silly of me :rolleyes:

 

What the jesus fuck are you on about? Did I say there was no community below 50k NS? Goddamnit you're a first-class moron.

[Captain Enema]

I'm going to certify this vote as for optional rp with 45 days to figure it all out. 

 

I'll let mogar confirm my confirmation. 

 

That being said, we have set of naval rules to decide upon. Let's get that figured out.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I will destroy China again, I could always use the mainland as a colony. stop Horo, he has an opinion that goes against what most people have agreed to, let him air his frustrations and do not mock him because he shares a different opinion than yours.

Hey, let's not take the OOC into the IC, ok? How is it I go to sleep after cooperating with the Japanese and wake up to threats?

Edited May 22, 2014 by Evangeline Anovilis

[PresidentDavid]

I voted in favor, I just want to stress that we need to continue to examin this situation and make sure it works out for everyone.

[Hereno]

I vote "no" because this wasn't even really discussed in the thread. It really isn't this huge deal if they have to wait a few days. The option I wanted isn't even on the poll.

[Hereno]

I vote "no" because this wasn't even really discussed in the thread. It really isn't this huge deal if they have to wait a few days. The option I wanted isn't even on the poll.

So I guess nobody plans to actually address these concerns?

[Captain Enema]

So I guess nobody plans to actually address these concerns?

 

What option do you want to discuss?

[Hereno]

What option do you want to discuss?

None of this temporary and optional shit was ever discussed, unless you all just decided to discuss it on IRC, except I've been on IRC too and saw no real discussion. And now it's just on the poll as our only alternative to shutting them all out. Just let everybody in or keep them all out. There is no option to let some people in, there is no specifications as to the rules they'll follow, nothing. We don't even have the rules layed out for the under 50k nations yet. We didn't get to discuss past the merits of "should they even be allowed under any system" before this poll was created. But how can we even be having this poll if we haven't decided on, for example, aircraft rules? And that conversation was going on in private via PM where nobody else could see between a few of our "clique" members and the GMs with the vast majority of the community not even invited. I have no doubts that the same shit has been going on in regards to this.

The entire point of CNRP2 was to be friendly to newcomers and yet we've been completely sidelined in favor of friends, the status quo, and long-term RPers who were the entire reason the second map was created. Both yourself and Mogar have failed as GMs for letting things carry on this way, and the more involved I become in this community, the more I wish I hadn't ever bothered. There is no point in participating in the drama spat of two separate groups of RPers wherein my contribution to the community only matters as far as raising the number of participants by one to give yourself, Mogar, and CNRP2 legitimacy. Until any of this is given more than lip service about how "what the community wants, it gets", I see no reason to continue.

[Uberstein]

Well, that aircraft discussion I started on PM was me looking for input personally. I never posted publicly because I was told that there were already plans for aircraft rules and my idea wasn't needed.

 

I agree that more discussion could be good.

[Markus Wilding]

Deleting my vote as I realize the voting options are extremely limited. I think some more discussion is needed and other rules need to be taken care of first.

[Helios]

None of this temporary and optional !@#$ was ever discussed, unless you all just decided to discuss it on IRC, except I've been on IRC too and saw no real discussion. And now it's just on the poll as our only alternative to shutting them all out. Just let everybody in or keep them all out. There is no option to let some people in, there is no specifications as to the rules they'll follow, nothing. We don't even have the rules layed out for the under 50k nations yet. We didn't get to discuss past the merits of "should they even be allowed under any system" before this poll was created. But how can we even be having this poll if we haven't decided on, for example, aircraft rules? And that conversation was going on in private via PM where nobody else could see between a few of our "clique" members and the GMs with the vast majority of the community not even invited. I have no doubts that the same !@#$ has been going on in regards to this.

The entire point of CNRP2 was to be friendly to newcomers and yet we've been completely sidelined in favor of friends, the status quo, and long-term RPers who were the entire reason the second map was created. Both yourself and Mogar have failed as GMs for letting things carry on this way, and the more involved I become in this community, the more I wish I hadn't ever bothered. There is no point in participating in the drama spat of two separate groups of RPers wherein my contribution to the community only matters as far as raising the number of participants by one to give yourself, Mogar, and CNRP2 legitimacy. Until any of this is given more than lip service about how "what the community wants, it gets", I see no reason to continue.

 

Hereno you have virtually put into words everything that has been on my mind concerning this rule and indeed this RP the last few days.

 

Can anyone from the initial CNRP2 50k- camp genuinely explain to me why there was and is such a rush to get 50k+ nations in? 

 

I freely admit that I added to the vote for Evangeline to come in but this was before I realised this would be automatically extended to everybody else.

[Zoot Zoot]

 

Hereno you have virtually put into words everything that has been on my mind concerning this rule and indeed this RP the last few days.

 

Can anyone from the initial CNRP2 50k- camp genuinely explain to me why there was and is such a rush to get 50k+ nations in? 

 

I freely admit that I added to the vote for Evangeline to come in but this was before I realised this would be automatically extended to everybody else.

 

Can you explain why are you so opposed to this? Im only involved by good graces of Mogar and TBM. The post in the map thread stating you would not recognize me due to my initial claims on the map, which was I might add, still alot smaller than Evas and Horo's. It simply looked big because of the number of countries it would encompass, and I still made it smaller after discussion with TBM and Mogar. Also that map Markus create which said I also claimed Iran was a joke, as Iran was never a claim.

I honestly believe you should give us a chance before laying out judgment against us Alduin, we are not all griefers.

[Markus Wilding]

 

 Also that map Markus create which said I also claimed Iran was a joke, as Iran was never a claim.

 

As I explained in IRC to you, I misread your post, something of which I seem to be doing a lot lately.

[xoindotnler]

Can anyone from the initial CNRP2 50k- camp genuinely explain to me why there was and is such a rush to get 50k+ nations in? 

To shut up the annoying people that wanted to be in.

[jesbro]

To shut up the annoying people that wanted to be in.

^ This pretty much. Dont mind 50k plus nations being in as long as they dont try to steamroll everyone.

[Hereno]

To shut up the annoying people that wanted to be in.

Being rude or pushy before even getting into the RP, to me, seems like red flag behavior. Are people who act like that really the kind of people we want to be letting in? Being a jerk should get you told "no", or "to wait and we'll get back to you". This want on behalf of the GMs to appease half the time is what's getting the 50k+ players impatient, because they get told they'll be let in and then five minutes later told the exact opposite.

Though of course, yes, some of them are really annoying. Hence my voting for the first option until we figure things out. Edited May 23, 2014 by Hereno

[Captain Enema]

Being rude or pushy before even getting into the RP, to me, seems like red flag behavior. Are people who act like that really the kind of people we want to be letting in? Being a jerk should get you told "no", or "to wait and we'll get back to you". This want on behalf of the GMs to appease half the time is what's getting the 50k+ players impatient, because they get told they'll be let in and then five minutes later told the exact opposite.

Though of course, yes, some of them are really annoying. Hence my voting for the first option until we figure things out.

 

 

They over 50s weren't even the worst about it. 

 

As I said though, they've and we've 45 days to figure it out. If they turn out to be complete asshats during this time, option one becomes a much easier thing to arrange. Less under 50s are likely to be so dramatic about it. 

[Helios]

Can you explain why are you so opposed to this? Im only involved by good graces of Mogar and TBM. The post in the map thread stating you would not recognize me due to my initial claims on the map, which was I might add, still alot smaller than Evas and Horo's. It simply looked big because of the number of countries it would encompass, and I still made it smaller after discussion with TBM and Mogar. Also that map Markus create which said I also claimed Iran was a joke, as Iran was never a claim.

I honestly believe you should give us a chance before laying out judgment against us Alduin, we are not all griefers.

 

That's a fair question Zoot and I'm happy to answer it. As a side note, from here on in when I talk about CNRP I'm referring to both incarnations of it, indeed the phenomenon of CNRP itself.

 

The thing about CNRP is all the rules initially built for it intrinsically benefited large nations. Tech, navy, aircraft rules, all of it gave the advantage to large nations. This isn't necessarily a problem in itself but given it is a shared world, for obvious reasons it discourages new people who may have smaller nations from joining. For that reason, you end up with an incredibly small portion of players involved in the RP. Remember there are currently 10,370 people in the game at large, and yet less than fifty people have an active role in CNRP. Sure, we can say that maybe the other 10,320 players have zero interest in RP but is that true? Or is it what we tell ourselves to avoid the glaring issue that the system isn't working?

 

There is a question of fairness that must be confronted. I'll be the first guy to tell you that life ain't fair and the reality is that the application of force is the only thing that truly matters in a world like ours. Moreover, as Qui-Gon so rightly said in Episode I, there is always a bigger fish. This is an inescapable fact. However, with CNRP the idea should be to create an inclusive, open and above all enjoyable nation-roleplaying world for its participants. It should not be to let the bigger fishes run the whole show, annihilating other, smaller nations and taking control of impossibly large tracts of land and refusing to give any of it up.

 

Now, I dare not say that all the bigger fishes are horrible players who ruin the game for everyone else because that would simply be slanderous. But the fact is there's a paradigm in place wherein the larger nations steadily subsume the territories (and by extension the capacity for great creativity) of smaller nations and their associated players. This is a significant issue that presents a direct threat to the longevity and popularity of the CNRP world as a whole. In fact this seems to have been the case for some time now.

 

My issue with introducing 50k+ nations into CNRP2 is that it's far too soon. From my perspective, some lands that have been reserved and claimed already by 50k+ players could've been used by fresh, new players. This issue is of particular annoyance to me because a few of you coming to this one already have active roles in CNRP1. I'm not saying players can't cross between the two worlds but CNRP2 was meant to be a fresh start and hopefully would've attracted more players that are not, nor have ever been, involved in CNRP.

 

With regards to my non-recognition of your nation, I genuinely don't have anything against you specifically Zoot, it is my RP-wide policy for the time being at the very least until all the rules are set in concrete.

 

If I had things my way, I would have three versions of CNRP. Version 1 would be nation-based roleplaying for nations with 100,000 nation strength and above. This could be for the real superpowers in CN, the ones with all the wonders, tons of tech, soldiers, etc. They play best with others their size and power in-game, therefore the standard set of rules works. Version 2 would be the same in most respects except one: it would only contain nations possessing between 50,000 and 90,000 nation strength. This is very much like the standard CNRP, with all the associated rules and the super-machiavellian gameplay. Version 3 of course, would be for nations with below 50,000 nation strength. This last world would be best for the smallest of nations as it provides a better, more stimulating environment in which they can RP without fear of being caught up in a plot that could very well end in spilled milk and tears. The rules would doubtless be modified to take into account the lack of certain in-game qualities.

 

If any world gets too full, too convoluted or any one team/nation becomes too dominant, then the simple solutions are to either reset it or create a brand new one.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Alduin

[Evangeline Anovilis]

 

That's a fair question Zoot and I'm happy to answer it. As a side note, from here on in when I talk about CNRP I'm referring to both incarnations of it, indeed the phenomenon of CNRP itself.

 

The thing about CNRP is all the rules initially built for it intrinsically benefited large nations. Tech, navy, aircraft rules, all of it gave the advantage to large nations. This isn't necessarily a problem in itself but given it is a shared world, for obvious reasons it discourages new people who may have smaller nations from joining. For that reason, you end up with an incredibly small portion of players involved in the RP. Remember there are currently 10,370 people in the game at large, and yet less than fifty people have an active role in CNRP. Sure, we can say that maybe the other 10,320 players have zero interest in RP but is that true? Or is it what we tell ourselves to avoid the glaring issue that the system isn't working?

I think of these 10,370 people, not all even got a forum account. Then there's the hurdle to actually look up the RP section. Not everyone who joins this game automatically takes both of these steps. Of course, it would be helped if we actively would try to reach out, but all the propaganda we actually get are people going around saying CNRP is bad.

 

 

My issue with introducing 50k+ nations into CNRP2 is that it's far too soon. From my perspective, some lands that have been reserved and claimed already by 50k+ players could've been used by fresh, new players. This issue is of particular annoyance to me because a few of you coming to this one already have active roles in CNRP1. I'm not saying players can't cross between the two worlds but CNRP2 was meant to be a fresh start and hopefully would've attracted more players that are not, nor have ever been, involved in CNRP.

So, tell me, how are "fresh" players better than me? Somehow, they must have a quality that I have lost through CNRP or something.

 

 

If I had things my way, I would have three versions of CNRP. Version 1 would be nation-based roleplaying for nations with 100,000 nation strength and above. This could be for the real superpowers in CN, the ones with all the wonders, tons of tech, soldiers, etc. They play best with others their size and power in-game, therefore the standard set of rules works. Version 2 would be the same in most respects except one: it would only contain nations possessing between 50,000 and 90,000 nation strength. This is very much like the standard CNRP, with all the associated rules and the super-machiavellian gameplay. Version 3 of course, would be for nations with below 50,000 nation strength. This last world would be best for the smallest of nations as it provides a better, more stimulating environment in which they can RP without fear of being caught up in a plot that could very well end in spilled milk and tears. The rules would doubtless be modified to take into account the lack of certain in-game qualities.

I'm strongly against seperating by NS, because NS says little to nothing about character. I would say, split it the way it is split now. Have one RP for people that are more competitive, that allows for greater cleavages, while you have another one designed with a more egalitarian notion, where everyone has about the same amount of stuff. Seperate RPs by how they are approached and by the multipliers by which IG assets are translated to IC assets. That way, everyone is free to join whatever kind of RP they find attractive and in one maybe large nations become Empires and small nations smaller states and in the other the multipliers work the other way round, providing more for the small and capping the strong.

[Helios]

I think of these 10,370 people, not all even got a forum account. Then there's the hurdle to actually look up the RP section. Not everyone who joins this game automatically takes both of these steps. Of course, it would be helped if we actively would try to reach out, but all the propaganda we actually get are people going around saying CNRP is bad.

 

I have seen no attempts to reach out and deliberately include people into RP. I have never had anyone in any channel I've been in on IRC encouraging people to go RP except for the obvious #cnrp channels, which new players would not immediately go to.

 

 

So, tell me, how are "fresh" players better than me? Somehow, they must have a quality that I have lost through CNRP or something.

 

This is just typical egotistical bullshit and a perfect example of the elitist notion that the good stuff should only be kept in the hands of a few. Your RP quality is no better (or worse for that matter) than most of the other people here and I'm more than willing to bet that, out of the other 10,000 people in the game, at least a few can replicate that quality. More to the point, you've already got your piece of the cake so you can shut up, eat it and let other people have a piece.

 

 

I'm strongly against seperating by NS, because NS says little to nothing about character. I would say, split it the way it is split now. Have one RP for people that are more competitive, that allows for greater cleavages, while you have another one designed with a more egalitarian notion, where everyone has about the same amount of stuff. Seperate RPs by how they are approached and by the multipliers by which IG assets are translated to IC assets. That way, everyone is free to join whatever kind of RP they find attractive and in one maybe large nations become Empires and small nations smaller states and in the other the multipliers work the other way round, providing more for the small and capping the strong.

 

What the fuck has "character" got to do with it? It's not about character, it's about giving people the opportunities to RP successfully and creatively, without having to be wary of other people out to ruin their game. I can agree with the idea of even just two separate RPs but it has to be done right.

[Mogar]

I have seen no attempts to reach out and deliberately include people into RP. I have never had anyone in any channel I've been in on IRC encouraging people to go RP except for the obvious #cnrp channels, which new players would not immediately go to.

It is quite difficult in a game this old to find people who wish to RP who havent already tried to do so in this particular game, hence the half dozen or so older RPers who returned for CNRP2, nor it is very easy to advertise as an individual, perhaps we could work with alliances to include a thread about it on their individual boards or something but that going to take some level of organization and alot of communication to arrange.
 

This is just typical egotistical !@#$%^&* and a perfect example of the elitist notion that the good stuff should only be kept in the hands of a few. Your RP quality is no better (or worse for that matter) than most of the other people here and I'm more than willing to bet that, out of the other 10,000 people in the game, at least a few can replicate that quality. More to the point, you've already got your piece of the cake so you can shut up, eat it and let other people have a piece.

Evangeline's RP is one of the best on this forum, she is a talented writer and skilled character RPer and you should not throw petty insults around merely to try to get your point across.
 

What the $%&@ has "character" got to do with it? It's not about character, it's about giving people the opportunities to RP successfully and creatively, without having to be wary of other people out to ruin their game. I can agree with the idea of even just two separate RPs but it has to be done right.

We are giving you that chance, but you are trying to limit others ability to have that same opportunity simply because of their nation strength, if Evangeline, Lynneth, Zoot, Horo, King Timmy, or any other of the larger nations actually seeks to destroy someone else's RP, i will be the first to call them out on it.
 

[Helios]

It is quite difficult in a game this old to find people who wish to RP who havent already tried to do so in this particular game, hence the half dozen or so older RPers who returned for CNRP2, nor it is very easy to advertise as an individual, perhaps we could work with alliances to include a thread about it on their individual boards or something but that going to take some level of organization and alot of communication to arrange.

 

This would be ideal. Reaching out to alliances and picking out the people who express interest in RP but for whatever reasons do not participate, and persuading them to give it a go, would be interesting to attempt.

 

 

Evangeline's RP is one of the best on this forum, she is a talented writer and skilled character RPer and you should not throw petty insults around merely to try to get your point across.

 

I can understand your defending someone you respect but it means nothing in this case. What she said is egotistical and tasteless really. I've spent considerable time looking at stuff from everybody across the board and I can say with certainty that while Evangeline RPs with quality, it is not somehow more special or unique than everyone else's, and in fact, a lot of other people exhibit the same degree of quality.

 

It also annoys me that she somehow thinks she is entitled to a place in CNRP2 over a new person simply because of her quality. That isn't the case at all. Especially because she is already involved with an RP. Why should she be prioritised over new blood simply because she can RP well?
 

We are giving you that chance, but you are trying to limit others ability to have that same opportunity simply because of their nation strength, if Evangeline, Lynneth, Zoot, Horo, King Timmy, or any other of the larger nations actually seeks to destroy someone else's RP, i will be the first to call them out on it.

 

Well, gee Mogar, maybe I'm trying to stop CNRP2 going down the same path as CNRP1, incidentally the path which led to the toxic environment you so often scream about.

[Mogar]

 

This would be ideal. Reaching out to alliances and picking out the people who express interest in RP but for whatever reasons do not participate, and persuading them to give it a go, would be interesting to attempt.

We have to actually get the rule discussions of the most basic of things over and voted upon before I begin a grandiose expansion plan, people have been fairly conservative with their land claims and I expect that to continue for the time being.

 

 

I can understand your defending someone you respect but it means nothing in this case. What she said is egotistical and tasteless really. I've spent considerable time looking at stuff from everybody across the board and I can say with certainty that while Evangeline RPs with quality, it is not somehow more special or unique than everyone else's, and in fact, a lot of other people exhibit the same degree of quality.

Evangeline is blunt and direct, it comes off as arrogance at times but she doesn't mean anything by it.(most of the time)

 

 

Well, gee Mogar, maybe I'm trying to stop CNRP2 going down the same path as CNRP1, incidentally the path which led to the toxic environment you so often scream about.

I am appreciative of that, but nobody who has rolled a nation that's over 50k so far has any interest in becoming a hegemony.