A Shangri-La Announcement

[Saniiro Matsudaira]

I can't determine which is more ludicrous: the fact that people are saying that sanctions cannot be a legitimate part of a strategy or that Kaskus still thinks they are winning.

[supercoolyellow]

As you toe the party line of how heinous the sanctions are.  :rolleyes:

 

You can say many things about D34th, but to say that he's posting what everyone else is posting is definitely not one of them. :P

Edited February 7, 2013 by supercoolyellow

[Sardonic]

GOONS change in raid policies proof otherwise.

Not really, no.  At the end of the day that change came around to bring our policies more in line with our allies' following policy discussions both internal and with our allies.  The OWF had dick all to do with it.

 

But please, continue to trumpet your mighty achievements.  At the end of the day, your opinion does not matter with regards to NSO or GOONS policies, regardless of the status of the existence of unicorns.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Sardonic

[D34th]

But you would have them submit on this issue of the Senate.  You would have them submit to the belief that white peace is a fundamental right.  All but the neutrals seek the submission (or perhaps merely consent) of others to their respective wills.  Were it independence of thought, every difference of opinion would be your treasure and triumph.  It is clear here that you do not so cherish your difference in opinion with the Sith.  You lament it.

 

As an aside, I am no longer a member of the Kingdom.

 

True I want them to change their mind and do what is right, not submit to my will, unless you think I'm the personification of everything is good and right on cyberverse :awesome: .

 

I also never stated that white peace is a fundamental right, I said that in this case Kaskus was punished enough for a somewhat small crime and if NSO is so interested in put a end on this war they should be the bigger man and offer white peace, after all they achieved what they wanted at the beginning of this war: some rounds of war with US and his ZI(they zi'ed him right?). Now if they aren't much worried in end this war, ok for me and for kaskus(I think), but keep the fight a fair one and stop the use of senate sanctions. 

 

Oh and sorry, I sometimes forgot that you're not a MK representative anymore. 

 

 

 

 

Not really, no.  At the end of the day that change came around to bring our policies more in line with our allies' following policy discussions both internal and with our allies.  The OWF had dick all to do with it.

 

But please, continue to trumpet your mighty achievements.  At the end of the day, your opinion does not matter with regards to NSO or GOONS policies, regardless of the status of the existence of unicorns.

 

But please, continue to trumpet your mighty achievements.

You can deny all that you want, you can say that you had a dream at night and in that dream a magic bird convinced you to change the policies, but at the end of the day you, I and everyone else knows that those change happened in great part because you couldn't bear the OWF pressure anymore since DH was losing it power to do whatever they wanted. I'm not that deluded to believe that OWF was the only factor on it, but I'm sure it was a decisive one. 

Edited February 7, 2013 by D34th

[Rayvon]

True I want them to change their mind and do what is right, not submit to my will

 

heh alrighty

[Pyroman]

My distaste for the sith comes from your actions in this war, if you take a look at the first pages of your DoW you'll see me as a supporter of your cause. You say Kaskus could have avoided this war and that's true, the same way Moldavi could have avoided to create NSO and free us from it's stupidity, talk about how things could had been is pointless, I'm talking about the present and the future, not about things you can't change anymore. By your logic Kaskus is the offender because they don't want to accept the surrender terms you want to give to them?  Give them white peace and I'm sure they will be glad to accept your offer, if not you can count me again as a supporter of your cause. Now why NSO don't want to give them white peace? Because NSO is arrogant, you should look at your past and see your alliance requested the same terms from Legion and they gave it to you because they aren't arrogant or naive to need a admission of defeat to understand that they defeated you(well in that case they defeated you alone and in a fair fight, Legion don't had to call allies and/or use senate sanctions to achieve it).

The present and the future are out of context without the past, regardless of what could have been.  Ignoring the past does not strengthen your argument, though you clearly have no problems citing it for precendent.

 

Still, you clearly missed the point altogether.  My logic isn't saying Kaskus is the aggressor for not accepting terms, my logic is that they are the aggressor for allowing the war to exist.  I don't think it's wrong of us to want reparations for the problems they caused us.  I think an apology in these circumstances is perfectly normal.  In fact, that's the whole point of reparations.  Without that, the consequences for having causing us this much trouble are not nearly great enough to discourage it from others in the future.  So, not only does the past not matter to you, but neither does the future.  Your entire argument is wrapped up in the present, an attempt to make it seem like Kaskus shouldn't be held accountable.  After all, how did they wrong us today?  They didn't so we shouldn't be warring them.  In the grand scheme of things, you're dead wrong.

[Pyroman]

I also never stated that white peace is a fundamental right, I said that in this case Kaskus was punished enough for a somewhat small crime and if NSO is so interested in put a end on this war they should be the bigger man and offer white peace, after all they achieved what they wanted at the beginning of this war: some rounds of war with US and his ZI(they zi'ed him right?). Now if they aren't much worried in end this war, ok for me and for kaskus(I think), but keep the fight a fair one and stop the use of senate sanctions. 

Oh, I'm beginning to see the problem.  I probably didn't realize this sooner because it seemed obvious to me.  You think all NSO wanted to do was attack Kaskus for a "small crime".  Once again I'll say that your lack of involvement in this situation is what causes you to be wrong.  You see, you clearly underestimate how pissed off we sith are over the circumstances of this war.  You chalk this behavior up to arrogance but in reality it's sheer wrath.

[D34th]

The present and the future are out of context without the past, regardless of what could have been.  Ignoring the past does not strengthen your argument, though you clearly have no problems citing it for precendent.

 

Still, you clearly missed the point altogether.  My logic isn't saying Kaskus is the aggressor for not accepting terms, my logic is that they are the aggressor for allowing the war to exist.  I don't think it's wrong of us to want reparations for the problems they caused us.  I think an apology in these circumstances is perfectly normal.  In fact, that's the whole point of reparations.  Without that, the consequences for having causing us this much trouble are not nearly great enough to discourage it from others in the future.  So, not only does the past not matter to you, but neither does the future.  Your entire argument is wrapped up in the present, an attempt to make it seem like Kaskus shouldn't be held accountable.  After all, how did they wrong us today?  They didn't so we shouldn't be warring them.  In the grand scheme of things, you're dead wrong.

 

You're good in distort other people words, I'll give you that. First of all, I never said to ignore the past, I said that you can't change the past and consequently should focus in what is more important and in what you can change: the future. You clearly thinks that lose 70% of their NS is not enough, you still want reparations, this is even worse. I also never said that Kaskus shouldn't be held accountable on the contrary I said they were already punished for what they did. You're right just about one thing, I'm dead, after all I'm the death, but not wrong. 

 

 

Oh, I'm beginning to see the problem.  I probably didn't realize this sooner because it seemed obvious to me.  You think all NSO wanted to do was attack Kaskus for a "small crime".  Once again I'll say that your lack of involvement in this situation is what causes you to be wrong.  You see, you clearly underestimate how pissed off we sith are over the circumstances of this war.  You chalk this behavior up to arrogance but in reality it's sheer wrath.

 

Well unless your emperor was lying in your DoW, he stated that the whole objective of the war was retrieve US. 

[Pyroman]

You're good in distort other people words, I'll give you that. First of all, I never said to ignore the past, I said that you can't change the past and consequently should focus in what is more important and in what you can change: the future. You clearly thinks that lose 70% of their NS is not enough, you still want reparations, this is even worse. I also never said that Kaskus shouldn't be held accountable on the contrary I said they were already punished for what they did. You're right just about one thing, I'm dead, after all I'm the death, but not wrong. 

 

 

 

Well unless your emperor was lying in your DoW, he stated that the whole objective of the war was retrieve US. 

So your telling me that our anger at them is unjustifable because Kaskus is getting a beat down?  You said yourself that they have yet to be defeated until they surrender themselves.  I'm not twisting your words, you're contradicting yourself.  The longer this goes on, the worse it should be for them.  Our fairest offers came pre-war.

 

And our emperor was not lying.  We went to get US.  Have we gotten him yet?  Regardless of what you think may or may not be enough, it is up to us to seek satisfaction.  Kaskus was, and still is, jerking us around.  They should by all accounts pay for that.  Once again you underestimate our anger at this situation. 

[D34th]

So your telling me that our anger at them is unjustifable because Kaskus is getting a beat down?  You said yourself that they have yet to be defeated until they surrender themselves.  I'm not twisting your words, you're contradicting yourself.  The longer this goes on, the worse it should be for them.  Our fairest offers came pre-war.

 

And our emperor was not lying.  We went to get US.  Have we gotten him yet?  Regardless of what you think may or may not be enough, it is up to us to seek satisfaction.  Kaskus was, and still is, jerking us around.  They should by all accounts pay for that.  Once again you underestimate our anger at this situation. 

 

As I said to Ardus, I have no problem with you fighting them until either you realize that you're wasting your time and white peace is the best option for Kaskus, you and your allies since your smaller nations are the ones paying the price for your arrogance or keep fighting until Kaskus finally bend their knee and accept your surrender terms. Well, I'll criticize you if your terms are too harsh, but otherwise I'll just mock you a bit about the fact that you needed help to deal with them. What I'm totally against here and what I'll continue to criticize is the use of senate sanctions in a alliance war, as I said before it's a pitiful tactic and reeks of desperation.

Will my criticizes bear fruits? I highly doubt, but as someone said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." so I'm doing my part. I, nonetheless, eagerly waits for the day that NSO finds itself suffering from senate sanctions and complaining in this very forum about it, karma is a bitch people say and you don't need to look very far to see it's true, just take a look at the global war going on and see DH suffering the same treatment they used to give to others and now that they're in the dead end of it, they're complaining about how it is unfair. Sooner or later the same thing will happen with you, that's why my favorite advice is to not do to others what you don't want to yourself. 

Edited February 7, 2013 by D34th

[Pyroman]

As I said to Ardus, I have no problem with you fighting them until either you realize that you're wasting your time and white peace is the best option for Kaskus, you and your allies since your smaller nations are the ones paying the price for your arrogance or keep fighting until Kaskus finally bend their knee and accept your surrender terms. Well, I'll criticize you if your terms are too harsh, but otherwise I'll just mock you a bit about the fact that you needed help to deal with them. What I'm totally against here and what I'll continue to criticize is the use of senate sanctions in a alliance war, as I said before it's a pitiful tactic and reeks of desperation.

Will my criticizes bear fruits? I highly doubt, but as someone said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." so I'm doing my part. I, nonetheless, eagerly waits for the day that NSO finds itself suffering from senate sanctions and complaining in this very forum about it, karma is a bitch people say and you don't need to look very far to see it's true, just take a look at the global war going on and see DH suffering the same treatment they used to give to others and now that they're in the dead end of it, they're complaining about how it is unfair. Sooner or later the same thing will happen with you, that's why my favorite advice is to not do to others what you don't want to yourself. 

Once again, it's not arrogance.  I don't see how you can even make that claim, but whatever.

 

The use of sanctions, to you, might sound like desperation.  The sanctions were more or less to help out our little guys who are up against nukes due to the absolutely demolished upper teirs of Kaskus.  It probably wouldn't have been necessary at all without the NEW aid bomb.  Allies were needed because with the use of nukes at our lower teirs we were at risk of losing many kaskus nations to peace mode while our small nations suffered from anarchy.  This would be counter productive to our "we want to destroy US" stance, as well as, for the time being, wreaking havoc all over his support lines.

 

Anyway, the sith won't complain if sanctions are used against us.  We're neither the arrogant bastards nor the hypocrites you paint us to be.  It'll hardly matter, in fact, since not only are our members capable of changing colors, but one senator is only allowed 5 sanctions.  I recommend, to whomever wishes to sanction us, that they do choose carefully.  It would be hard to cripple or even harm an alliance with over 100 members .

[Melancholy Culkin]

D34th has Roq'd this thread into submission.

[D34th]

Once again, it's not arrogance.  I don't see how you can even make that claim, but whatever.

 

The use of sanctions, to you, might sound like desperation.  The sanctions were more or less to help out our little guys who are up against nukes due to the absolutely demolished upper teirs of Kaskus.  It probably wouldn't have been necessary at all without the NEW aid bomb.  Allies were needed because with the use of nukes at our lower teirs we were at risk of losing many kaskus nations to peace mode while our small nations suffered from anarchy.  This would be counter productive to our "we want to destroy US" stance, as well as, for the time being, wreaking havoc all over his support lines.

 

Anyway, the sith won't complain if sanctions are used against us.  We're neither the arrogant bastards nor the hypocrites you paint us to be.  It'll hardly matter, in fact, since not only are our members capable of changing colors, but one senator is only allowed 5 sanctions.  I recommend, to whomever wishes to sanction us, that they do choose carefully.  It would be hard to cripple or even harm an alliance with over 100 members .

 

If NSO used the sanction to forbid to Kaskus the use nukes I'm sad to be the one to give you the notice, but this tactic is outdated since you can switch your resources to uranium and continue to rebuild the nuke stockpile. Nobody knows what future reserves, don't be so sure to say that the sith won't complain, you may ending eating your words.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

Aggressive. Yes. It was an aggressive action we took towards Kaskus in applying the sanctions, and so in turn would be an aggressive action if any one [not going to keep specifying TPF and NEW repeatedly as senate seats are a position that's obtainable by any one within the sphere] were to sanction my nations in return. This is a situation between NSO/NPO/SL and Kaskus; one we are in due to a series of choices by Kaskus. "Aggressive action" does not apply only to the first to take an action. To use an analogy from the other world as your friends so love to do, just because you've punched me in the face first it does not make my punching you in the face in response a non-aggressive action. It is still aggressive by nature, by way of causing intended harm.

I'm sincerely sorry it had an impact over NEW nations, an unfortunate fallout and one that's beyond my control. But make no mistake of this fact: there's absolutely no reason why I should have or would be expected to speak to NEW beforehand. We do not answer to you any more than you answer to us. Any use of your senator you make, you don't need to clear it with us first. I spoke to TPF because they are my White sphere ally, their opinion matters to me. I spoke to NPO, I spoke to SL and I spoke to NG because they are my allies and their opinions matter to me. NEW is not my ally, and while I'm willing to listen to and entertain your opinions - they don't ultimately matter to me at days end. This is not a slight of any sort towards NEW, just a simple fact of the nature of relationships. If one day we find ourselves sharing a friendship, then your opinion will matter to me and I'll gladly discuss any decision in more detail with you prior to making it.

If NEW wishes to make these actions against Kaskus as actions against them - that is NEWs choice. It's been determined multiple times now that there's no existing treaty. This means there is no "legal obligation" to help Kaskus, making you a third party interjection just like in that previous aid situation that prolonged the war. Who knows, if you guys hadn't made that choice - maybe I wouldn't have had to make mine.

Every choice has a reaction. I stand tall with every decision I make, and I'm prepared to take accountability for my choices.I'm having difficulty understanding this. If NEW has committed actions during a legitimate war, then sanction would be unwarranted and dickish? I would think it'd be the other way around, if NEW did not commit actions during a legitimate war then sanctions would be unwarranted. Regardless, no sanctions have been applied to NEW nations making it a moot point.

 

No no, I meant that if they'd committed wrongs like this when an alliance war wasn't declared (A rogue action, an undeclared war between alliances), then the sanction would be warranted. If they were committed during a clear-cut alliance war, then sanction is unwarranted. Is that clearer? I feel like I sorta made that way more complicated than it needed to be, haha. 

[Pyroman]

If NSO used the sanction to forbid to Kaskus the use nukes I'm sad to be the one to give you the notice, but this tactic is outdated since you can switch your resources to uranium and continue to rebuild the nuke stockpile. Nobody knows what future reserves, don't be so sure to say that the sith won't complain, you may ending eating your words.

This is true, but the financial issues that those nations are already having will have been compounded.  They can change their resources but it will be harder to buy more nukes nonetheless.

 

And like I said, NSO will not complain if this tactic is used against us.  Like Ray said before, if it is by someone currently not engaging us then we will take it as a hostile act.  Other than that exception, I doubt any of us sees any reason why 5 nations losing trades temporarily will be harmful to us.  Besides, unlike Kaskus, we know when to give in.

[Hereno]

If NSO used the sanction to forbid to Kaskus the use nukes I'm sad to be the one to give you the notice, but this tactic is outdated since you can switch your resources to uranium and continue to rebuild the nuke stockpile. Nobody knows what future reserves, don't be so sure to say that the sith won't complain, you may ending eating your words.

 

If the tactic is so outdated and useless why the hell are you whining about it so much?

[Longshadow]

If the tactic is so outdated and useless why the hell are you whining about it so much?

 

Because D34th wants to argue for the sake of arguments sake. He has such an inflated ego that he can't help but see the rest of the world applauding what we are doing and has to come here and say "HEY YOU GUIZ SUCK!!!!!!1111"

 

Which if you read his posts and boil it down into the simplest of statements is exactly what he is saying, just like NEW and just like Kaskus. I'd feel like D34th should just join Kaskus and fight for them, maybe he can even pull a Smurf and try and get them to reach an acceptable peace accords with us, only to then see where the true problems actually lie.

 

The problems we have been dealing with this whole war and prior to the war.

[AngryMidget]

The way D34th talks it seems he thinks we're demanding stupid harsh reparations from Kaskus.

I don't see how wanting them to admit that they were dicking us around and baiting us into a war, and how an apology and surrender, will cripple their alliance.

[Longshadow]

The way D34th talks it seems he thinks we're demanding stupid harsh reparations from Kaskus.

I don't see how wanting them to admit that they were dicking us around and baiting us into a war, and how an apology and surrender, will cripple their alliance.

 

Its because of the fact that we are Sith and are therefore evil by nature.

 

Its okay though, I'm sure he'll get over it eventually.

[Unknown Smurf]

As would we have, champ. There was never a question of BFF or Int defending NEW for the cancellation period; the negotiations with NPO were in the event that NEW declared an aggressive war against them. Had NEW been hit by NPO or NG, we'd have defended to the last man until NEW got out. 

 

You've been around long enough to know that as soon as you announced that any (aggressive or otherwise) action that was going to come against NEW would have waited out your 7 day cancellation period. 

[Unknown Smurf]

EDIT: DP

 

BRING BACK FUCKING MULTI-QUOTE

Edited February 8, 2013 by Unknown Smurf

[Unknown Smurf]

Aggressive. Yes. It was an aggressive action we took towards Kaskus in applying the sanctions, and so in turn would be an aggressive action if any one [not going to keep specifying TPF and NEW repeatedly as senate seats are a position that's obtainable by any one within the sphere] were to sanction my nations in return. This is a situation between NSO/NPO/SL and Kaskus; one we are in due to a series of choices by Kaskus. "Aggressive action" does not apply only to the first to take an action. To use an analogy from the other world as your friends so love to do, just because you've punched me in the face first it does not make my punching you in the face in response a non-aggressive action. It is still aggressive by nature, by way of causing intended harm.

I'm sincerely sorry it had an impact over NEW nations, an unfortunate fallout and one that's beyond my control. But make no mistake of this fact: there's absolutely no reason why I should have or would be expected to speak to NEW beforehand. We do not answer to you any more than you answer to us. Any use of your senator you make, you don't need to clear it with us first. I spoke to TPF because they are my White sphere ally, their opinion matters to me. I spoke to NPO, I spoke to SL and I spoke to NG because they are my allies and their opinions matter to me. NEW is not my ally, and while I'm willing to listen to and entertain your opinions - they don't ultimately matter to me at days end. This is not a slight of any sort towards NEW, just a simple fact of the nature of relationships. If one day we find ourselves sharing a friendship, then your opinion will matter to me and I'll gladly discuss any decision in more detail with you prior to making it.

If NEW wishes to make these actions against Kaskus as actions against them - that is NEWs choice. It's been determined multiple times now that there's no existing treaty. This means there is no "legal obligation" to help Kaskus, making you a third party interjection just like in that previous aid situation that prolonged the war. Who knows, if you guys hadn't made that choice - maybe I wouldn't have had to make mine.

Every choice has a reaction. I stand tall with every decision I make, and I'm prepared to take accountability for my choices.I'm having difficulty understanding this. If NEW has committed actions during a legitimate war, then sanction would be unwarranted and dickish? I would think it'd be the other way around, if NEW did not commit actions during a legitimate war then sanctions would be unwarranted. Regardless, no sanctions have been applied to NEW nations making it a moot point.

 

Keep back-peddling. What happened to this being a defensive war for NSO because your attack on a Kaskus member (me) was an aggressive action but not a declaration of war? 

 

Shangri La did not consider itself to be at war with Kaskus after aid bombing NSO; but you guys considered NEWs actions to be an act of war?

 

If you're going to make up all these rules about how Bob works, at least be consistent. 

[Unknown Smurf]

The way D34th talks it seems he thinks we're demanding stupid harsh reparations from Kaskus.

I don't see how wanting them to admit that they were dicking us around and baiting us into a war, and how an apology and surrender, will cripple their alliance.

 

I believe your government is now requesting reparations. 

[D34th]

If the tactic is so outdated and useless why the hell are you whining about it so much?

 

The tactic is indeed outdated and useless if the purpose of it is forbid nations to keep buying nukes, however this doesn't mean that it isn't harmful for the nation and for other 4 nations who used to trade with the sanctioned one. Sincerely sometimes I think you guys do dumb questions just for the sake of it. 

Edited February 8, 2013 by D34th

[USMC123]

I believe your government is now requesting reparations. 

Uh, since when?