Accountability

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1349983518' post='3040117']
My point was that they had blended their OOC and IC so much over the previous years that people associated them as one and the same. When you talk as much about your private lives and make it part of your IC persona, you invite others to treat your IC and OOC as one and the same. I'm not talking about OOC in the "hey you like Dark Knight too? Cool, lets talk about movies", I am talking about OOC in the "here, this is my personal information, my life story, what I do for work", etc. I spend a lot of time talking about things that do not relate to CN with people from CN, as most everyone in CN does. The line that is dangerous to cross though, is the line of "this is not something that can affect my personal life, work, and relationships" and "this can affect those things". This isn't the first stop on the internet for people, the internet is an amazing place but it is also a place where identities are stolen, rumors are spread, and lives destroyed. People need to know better. I am simply saying, that the moral of the story is that a forum filled with thousands of strangers is not an appropriate place to discuss specifics of your real life if you do not want people who you have no personal relationship with, who may or may not have malicious intent, to have a chance to affect your life. But go ahead everyone, keep comparing what I said to rape or hate crimes.
[/quote]

For one, I did not compare what you said to rape or hate crimes. I simply stated that it is not difficult to keep IC separate from OOC. I understand that for most this is not their first stop on the internet, but most here are adults from what I have gathered and one would hope that adults would be able to hold themselves to a much higher standard than a bunch of kids on say /b/ or LUE or any other site for that matter.

I have discussed my RL life with others and have yet to have it come back against me OOC. Though I will admit, I do choose who I talk to and for the most part, it is not the likes of anyone in MK or GOONS, though due to some joining those alliances after the fact I cannot say that is entirely true. Though from what I can tell, those I have discussed my RL life with has not discussed it with others which I appreciate.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1349983623' post='3040119']
I wasn't asking for sympathy and it's fair enough that your prefer to stand beside MK, just doesn't come here and say(or support) who says that nobody has the stones to confront MK, because your alliance are included among those stone less.
[/quote]

Well to be fair, TOP did have the stones to do it and probably would if they were not allied to MK and had a reason to do so.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1349984587' post='3040124']

For one, I did not compare what you said to rape or hate crimes. I simply stated that it is not difficult to keep IC separate from OOC. I understand that for most this is not their first stop on the internet, but most here are adults from what I have gathered and one would hope that adults would be able to hold themselves to a much higher standard than a bunch of kids on say /b/ or LUE or any other site for that matter.

I have discussed my RL life with others and have yet to have it come back against me OOC. Though I will admit, I do choose who I talk to and for the most part, it is not the likes of anyone in MK or GOONS, though due to some joining those alliances after the fact I cannot say that is entirely true. Though from what I can tell, those I have discussed my RL life with has not discussed it with others which I appreciate.
[/quote]

And yes, I was not referring to you with my closing comment. You help make my point in where you say you are careful with who you talk to about it, don't seem to broadcast personal details to a wide audience, and do understand the risk inherent in what you are doing when discussing things like that. People need to be careful in what they say about their personal lives, and if someone chooses to share very intimate details of their life with thousands of complete strangers, you are opening the door for the worst elements of the internet to walk right in and take whatever they want.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1349985108' post='3040128']
And yes, I was not referring to you with my closing comment. You help make my point in where you say you are careful with who you talk to about it, don't seem to broadcast personal details to a wide audience, and do understand the risk inherent in what you are doing when discussing things like that. People need to be careful in what they say about their personal lives, and if someone chooses to share very intimate details of their life with thousands of complete strangers, you are opening the door for the worst elements of the internet to walk right in and take whatever they want.
[/quote]

Like I said, I do understand where you are coming from. I also still believe that MK is supposedly full of grown ups. As such, they should have conducted themselves far better than what was done or allowed to happen. The fact that they come in here and try to continue to make light of it shows that they are either not actually grown ups or are just completely immature.

Regardless of this being the internet, what happened to Hoo and Kait was and still is reprehensible. While there are dark corners of the web that one should be careful to traverse, it is sad that CN has to be considered one of those places.

[Scorponok]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1349954641' post='3039937']
Asking for help is the same as giving permission to snoop into personal matters. Gotcha.
[/quote]

You shouldn't have needed to ask. This is CN after all, is it not?

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1349983623' post='3040119']
I wasn't asking for sympathy and it's fair enough that your prefer to stand beside MK, just doesn't come here and say(or support) who says that nobody has the stones to confront MK, because your alliance are included among those stone less.
[/quote]
The people who continually get on here and moan about them (not us!) are the ones who lack the courage.

[IYIyTh]

How pathetic is that a few have to hide behind such despicable logic and portray it as something they believe OOC for IC reasons.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1349949844' post='3039927']
If she wanted to be left alone, she shouldn't have dressed that way.

Why didn't he leave his turban at home if he didn't want trouble?

See, when we blame the people who get hurt because they did "X", we validate the crime. What was done was terrible, and the perpetrators are at fault, not the victims.
[/quote]
Good post.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1349930044' post='3039762']
The moral of the story is if you don't want people gaining access to your personal life and potentially affecting it, don't parade it all over the internet. Some people have too much of a history of sharing their personal lives with anyone they come across, and it is only natural for IC rivalries to spill over into OOC when people make such a big deal out of their OOC in a setting where people are behaving IC. The information should never have been shared as freely as it was, and the people who posted the call for help should never have posted it. When it became clear that the call for help was based on exaggerations, misrepresented facts, and in some cases, lies, that it ended up blowing up in their faces was really a natural conclusion. Do I agree at all with people attempting to further affect their personal lives as some people attempted (and succeeded?) at doing? No. But people should shed no tears for the fact that their IC personas were destroyed by the incident, because when you blend IC and OOC as much as they did, you are opening the door for people to have their opinions of you in one realm affect their opinions of you in another.
[/quote]
When you blend IC and OOC as much as they did? Is this is a serious post? MK blended IC and OOC by using OOC reasons to hit someone IC, and destroy their IC character. You're defending their actions while condemning Hoo and KK over it. Seriously, try again.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1349940938' post='3039901']
The day people like you are worth anything more than a one liner is a day I will relish for a long time. Until then it's nothing but the disappointment I've come to expect from people like you, Gibs and others due to your blatant hypocrisy.
[/quote]
Hm, where is my hypocrisy?

Also, you're implying that you are above me. That's a good one, Marx.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1349987897' post='3040147']
Good post.


When you blend IC and OOC as much as they did? Is this is a serious post? MK blended IC and OOC by using OOC reasons to hit someone IC, and destroy their IC character. You're defending their actions while condemning Hoo and KK over it. Seriously, try again.


Hm, where is my hypocrisy?

[b]Also, you're implying that you are above me. That's a good one, Marx.[/b]
[/quote]


Made me laugh as well tbh.

[Groucho Marx]

I'm saying you're not exactly in a position to preach about morality. At all.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1349970567' post='3040006']
OK people show is over, Gibs is the real evil mastermind in CN. You can all go home now.
[/quote]

[b][i]whoooooooooooosh[/i][/b]


Right over your head, as usual.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Emperor Marx

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1349930044' post='3039762']
The moral of the story is if you don't want people gaining access to your personal life and potentially affecting it, don't parade it all over the internet. Some people have too much of a history of sharing their personal lives with anyone they come across, and it is only natural for IC rivalries to spill over into OOC when people make such a big deal out of their OOC in a setting where people are behaving IC. The information should never have been shared as freely as it was, and the people who posted the call for help should never have posted it. When it became clear that the call for help was based on exaggerations, misrepresented facts, and in some cases, lies, that it ended up blowing up in their faces was really a natural conclusion. Do I agree at all with people attempting to further affect their personal lives as some people attempted (and succeeded?) at doing? No. But people should shed no tears for the fact that their IC personas were destroyed by the incident, because when you blend IC and OOC as much as they did, you are opening the door for people to have their opinions of you in one realm affect their opinions of you in another.
[/quote]

They didn't really 'parade' it per se. You imply here that it was them that brought the issue to the OWF even, and that is not the case. Someone else posted the topic on their behalf and they didn't even ask that person to.


EDIT: [url=[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108327"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108327[/url]]Here[/url] is the topic. Even in the quoted part, you see Hoo and KKs names mentioned, which means the quoted message wasn't even originally written by them (unless they refer to themselves in the third person, of which I am unsure albeit doubtful).

Edited October 12, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Goldie]

I did not imply that they made the thread, I refered to the posters as "the people who posted".

[trimm]

You did directly state that it was their fault for putting themselves out there, so yeah. Still doesn't change the fact that certain people chose to take that information and do something despicable with it, which is by no means their fault.

[IYIyTh]

It's okay Trimm, Goldie is just in an alternate universe where OOC assaults are okay so long as they are done by your roundabout allies IC.

Edited October 12, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Goldie]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1350024031' post='3040475']
It's okay Trimm, Goldie is just in an alternate universe where OOC assaults are okay so long as they are done by your roundabout allies IC.
[/quote]

No, I just don't live in an alternate universe where I trust thousands of complete strangers to only want to do the right thing. There are bad people in every alliance, and MK has some serious dicks in theirs. You guys want to live in some ideal utopia where we can trust complete strangers with extremely sensitive private information just because we happen to play the same browser based simulator. I happen to see things much more realistically and was posting about that reality, that the internet is populated with people with horrible intentions, and that we cannot expect CN to be any different. Hoo and Kait's OOC lives were opened up to those thousands of people, and when lies and fallacies about it started to spring up, people reacted against them IC and OOC.

Doing horrible things to people OOC is not forgivable, and clearly people aren't forgiving those who did things that attacked Hoo and Kait personally, which is good. Attacking them and their alliance IC, however, is not something I feel was wrong, because when your OOC and IC become so ingrained with each other, as Hoo and Kait let theirs get for years, then when people feel like their support has been betrayed by those people it is only natural for people to react against them, and by extension, the alliance they led. On the same token, when the heinous actions of a few MK members (the ones in the OOC setting that spilled over into IC) go condoned by government by their continued membership in the alliance, then absolutely, a negative reaction to those members, and by extension, their alliance, is absolutely warranted.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1349992793' post='3040200']
[b][i]whoooooooooooosh[/i][/b]


Right over your head, as usual.
[/quote]

No, that was me making fun of you. Funny how that somehow flew right over your head.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Omniscient1

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1350053082' post='3040607']
No, I just don't live in an alternate universe where I trust thousands of complete strangers to only want to do the right thing. There are bad people in every alliance, and MK has some serious dicks in theirs. You guys want to live in some ideal utopia where we can trust complete strangers with extremely sensitive private information just because we happen to play the same browser based simulator. I happen to see things much more realistically and was posting about that reality, that the internet is populated with people with horrible intentions, and that we cannot expect CN to be any different. Hoo and Kait's OOC lives were opened up to those thousands of people, and when lies and fallacies about it started to spring up, people reacted against them IC and OOC.

Doing horrible things to people OOC is not forgivable, and clearly people aren't forgiving those who did things that attacked Hoo and Kait personally, which is good. Attacking them and their alliance IC, however, is not something I feel was wrong, because when your OOC and IC become so ingrained with each other, as Hoo and Kait let theirs get for years, then when people feel like their support has been betrayed by those people it is only natural for people to react against them, and by extension, the alliance they led. On the same token, when the heinous actions of a few MK members (the ones in the OOC setting that spilled over into IC) go condoned by government by their continued membership in the alliance, then absolutely, a negative reaction to those members, and by extension, their alliance, is absolutely warranted.
[/quote]

I talked to Hoo and Kait on occasion and I will be honest, up until about a few months before they deleted, I did not even know they were together. I did not and still do not know their RL names nor anything else about them. So can you please tell me how their IC and OOC selves were so ingrained together? I bet most people in CN would not know much about either one's RL lives. So, to state that their IC and OOC were so intertwined is disingenous. If it was such, then most anyone would be able to tell you so much more about the RL lives of Hoo and Kait. Yet, I doubt you will find that to be true.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1350053082' post='3040607']
On the same token, when the heinous actions of a few MK members (the ones in the OOC setting that spilled over into IC) go condoned by government by their continued membership in the alliance, then absolutely, a negative reaction to those members, and by extension, their alliance, is absolutely warranted.
[/quote]

A Goldie post I agree with? What is this madness

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Ogaden' timestamp='1350082853' post='3040849']
A Goldie post I agree with? What is this madness
[/quote]

I'll take credit for hyperbole working its magic.


It's a start, goldie!

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1350060081' post='3040643']
No, that was me making fun of you. Funny how that somehow flew right over your head.
[/quote]

Oh so you knew that I was referring to Gibsonator's own unsavory behavior and you simply chose to be an idiot about it? Nifty.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1350098226' post='3040923']
Oh so you knew that I was referring to Gibsonator's own unsavory behavior and you simply chose to be an idiot about it? Nifty.
[/quote]

Wow! you need hooked on phonics or something. Your reading skills suck. I'm making fun of you believing that Gibs' moral charecter has anything to do with Leet explaining how !@#$%* MK members were being in a certain situation.

[Ardus]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1349949844' post='3039927']
If she wanted to be left alone, she shouldn't have dressed that way.

Why didn't he leave his turban at home if he didn't want trouble?

See, when we blame the people who get hurt because they did "X", we validate the crime. What was done was terrible, and the perpetrators are at fault, not the victims.
[/quote]
Which part of our crime was equivalent to rape and racism?

[trimm]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1350410041' post='3041886']

Which part of our crime was equivalent to rape and racism?
[/quote]

That's not what he said and you know it. The point is that you can't make the person who was harmed responsible for the harm that was done to them by another. Which, by the way, is exactly what he said in response there to Goldie. A fine attempt at deflection on your part though.

Thumbs up!

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1350410041' post='3041886']
Which part of our crime was equivalent to rape and racism?
[/quote]

You miss the point. Berbers was discussing Goldie's logic that the victim was to blame for the act against him or her. No one has claimed that you are rapist or racist or anything like that. The fact still remains that certain memebers of the ruling power structure mischarecterized an OOC castrophe for an IC reward. The majority of the community feels this is unethical and it shouldn't have been done.

[Ardus]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1350412001' post='3041895']
That's not what he said and you know it. The point is that you can't make the person who was harmed responsible for the harm that was done to them by another. Which, by the way, is exactly what he said in response there to Goldie. A fine attempt at deflection on your part though.

Thumbs up!
[/quote]
[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1350412084' post='3041897']
You miss the point. Berbers was discussing Goldie's logic that the victim was to blame for the act against him or her. No one has claimed that you are rapist or racist or anything like that. The fact still remains that certain memebers of the ruling power structure mischarecterized an OOC castrophe for an IC reward. The majority of the community feels this is unethical and it shouldn't have been done.
[/quote]
My own point is that our own actions are regularly construed using the absolute strongest language possible and we again here dangerously tread toward that failure.

I do not recall pursuing an IC reward. I remember a couple of people going "man we'd like to hit them", referring to their nations, which shouldn't have happened. I remember the leadership of Ragnarok, without any real prodding, tossing them to the wolves. I remember how the controversial decision by Ragnarok's government caused the alliance to implode. I remember Kait & Hoo returning momentarily only to conclude that they did not wish to wade through it all and so left, which was their choice and probably a wise one.

Since I'm now being accused of getting an IC reward out of that !@#$show, I'd very much like to know what it was. Because as far as I'm concerned it was a horrible situation that turned into another horrible situation that turned into yet another horrible situation that has brought zero benefit to anybody, ever.