An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[hormones74]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1339727196' post='2984236']
MK should really apologize to CSN for Party Rocking.
[/quote]
No they shouldn't. CSN should bend over and accept what's happening to them. Poor Dave.

[Kevin McDonald]

Absolutely shameful MK. And to think, I remained a supporter of you long after all the formerly same-minded people had given up on you. I guess what everyone said was true, you had no issue with what NPO/hedgemony of that time was doing, other than you weren't a part of it.

Four legs good, two legs better, eh?

Despicable.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1339727910' post='2984253']
Absolutely shameful MK. And to think, I remained a supporter of you long after all the formerly same-minded people had given up on you. I guess what everyone said was true, you had no issue with what NPO/hedgemony of that time was doing, other than you weren't a part of it.

Four legs good, two legs better, eh?

Despicable.
[/quote]

Coming from a member of GOD makes this post hilarious.

[trimm]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1339728163' post='2984256']
Coming from a member of GOD makes this post hilarious.
[/quote]

And yet no less the truth.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1339728163' post='2984256']
Coming from a member of GOD makes this post hilarious.
[/quote]

GOD has always been completely transparent about their world views. I'd have no issue with this action if it wasn't EXPRESSLY what MK argued against for so long.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='hormones74' timestamp='1339727581' post='2984246']
No they shouldn't. CSN should bend over and accept what's happening to them. Poor Dave.
[/quote]

I think you are missing the point good sir.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1339728829' post='2984267']
I think you are missing the point good sir.
[/quote]

Was the point that you have awful music tastes?

[o ya baby]

attn: everyone talking

do something about it

[Gloin]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1339645309' post='2982751']
Wtf? Dave didn't do anything but tell me to spy, I did the work. Wheres my credits list?
[/quote]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1339645715' post='2982772']
You know what? The sad thing is, is that if I had kissed Doomhouse's/NG ass a week ago, I'd be held on a high throne and told about how great I am.... However, a true woman sticks to her honor and her values. I hope the social sell out was worth it Dave93.
[/quote]
Won't somebody think of the [s]children[/s] attention whores!

[Seerow]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1339728251' post='2984258']
GOD has always been completely transparent about their world views. I'd have no issue with this action if it wasn't EXPRESSLY what MK argued against for so long.
[/quote]

Oh okay. We'll make a point of forcing improvement/wonder decoms and imposing a viceroy or three at the end of this war. Maybe we'll send CSN over to Pink and EZI xiph when this is done too.

[Lincongrad]

So I'm way late to the party, I know, but I have a question.

Did MK tell CSN to back off and/or discuss this with CSN before declaring war?

Apologies if this has already been covered earlier in the thread.

Of the first 15 pages or so of the thread which I read, I saw a lot of posts about the defending side being hypocritical in that if an MK-aligned alliance did what CSN did then detractors of the current war would be expressing outrage. I feel like some would, but really the main concern I have with this war is the lack of communication.

If MK had talked to CSN and told them to step off, I feel like MK would have much more of an argument here. They didn't (did they?), and so MK's actions are clearly simply expressing their desire to stomp CSN. CSN, of course, should have come and talked to MK, but the burden of initiating conversation falls on MK... any rogue can hop back and forth between AAs, as I seem to remember reading that Dave93 has done, and it seems to be that the bulk of the responsibility for communications to halt attacks falls on the alliance whose AA he is on, since the ones who have previously sentenced the ZI have a prior claim.

In summation, it's not so much the attack as the communication issue that I see as MK's fault. Going to war over whether or not someone should be ZIed is one thing. I believe that Dave93 deserves his sentence, but that's not my main issue with MK's actions. Jumping the gun in terms of attacks displays a clear agressive motive, and that's the main problem I have.

Another set of apologies if I'm being unclear, or if me not reading the entire thread has made me miss something. I have no qualms about retracting my statement.

[Incitatus]

Hilarious, absolutely hilarious.


Bravo Dave & MK.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1339729283' post='2984278']
Oh okay. We'll make a point of forcing improvement/wonder decoms and imposing a viceroy or three at the end of this war. Maybe we'll send CSN over to Pink and EZI xiph when this is done too.
[/quote]

So sad. Yes, why don't you do all this? It's funny you consider yourself better than alliances that have done this in the past. You're not. If GOD is guilty of this in the past, as many alliances are, at least GOD has maintained consistency in their actions through the years, and even matured in time. Accuse us of being monsters in that past, but you CANNOT accuse us of hyprocisy. It is YOUR hypocrisy which I am accusing you of, and again, is the only issue I take with this.

When you come up with a plausible way to deny that this war is simply a way for MK to flex its new power, go ahead, until then, you remain a hypocrite and have lost all possibility to ever use the "well at least we didn't do this card." You are NO BETTER than any alliance who has done anything of the sort in the past, and in fact, are quite worse, because most of those alliances never gained their power by pretending that wasn't what they are about. If you're going to do something, own it. I have absolutely no delusions about what GOD has done in the past, and I can live with myself. I would ask you to take that same stark look at what your alliance has become, and if you are comfortable with it, then so be it. But own it one way or another.

[Incitatus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1339726352' post='2984227']
You got one thing right. He's a man of circumstances. Had he been on an IRON, INT, or GATO ZI list then you guys would have never even spoken to him. It's not fault of Dave's but it's funny to see you guys act like you're he's best friend after years of !@#$ting on him and his friends.
[/quote]

But don't you see, Omni.....This is why it's hilarious AND awesome!

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1339729376' post='2984279']
So I'm way late to the party, I know, but I have a question.

Did MK tell CSN to back off and/or discuss this with CSN before declaring war?

Apologies if this has already been covered earlier in the thread.

Of the first 15 pages or so of the thread which I read, I saw a lot of posts about the defending side being hypocritical in that if an MK-aligned alliance did what CSN did then detractors of the current war would be expressing outrage. I feel like some would, but really the main concern I have with this war is the lack of communication.

If MK had talked to CSN and told them to step off, I feel like MK would have much more of an argument here. They didn't (did they?), and so MK's actions are clearly simply expressing their desire to stomp CSN. CSN, of course, should have come and talked to MK, but the burden of initiating conversation falls on MK... any rogue can hop back and forth between AAs, as I seem to remember reading that Dave93 has done, and it seems to be that the bulk of the responsibility for communications to halt attacks falls on the alliance whose AA he is on, since the ones who have previously sentenced the ZI have a prior claim.

In summation, it's not so much the attack as the communication issue that I see as MK's fault. Going to war over whether or not someone should be ZIed is one thing. I believe that Dave93 deserves his sentence, but that's not my main issue with MK's actions. Jumping the gun in terms of attacks displays a clear agressive motive, and that's the main problem I have.

Another set of apologies if I'm being unclear, or if me not reading the entire thread has made me miss something. I have no qualms about retracting my statement.
[/quote]

Dave has a convo with Rota. CSN puts Dave on ZI list. MK accepts Dave knowing he's on CSN's ZI list. CSN gov contacted MK. Argument over whether Dave spied or not ensued. MK then launched attacks on CSN.

[JohnKirk]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1339729691' post='2984290']
Dave has a convo with Rota. CSN puts Dave on ZI list. MK accepts Dave knowing he's on CSN's ZI list. CSN gov contacted MK. Argument over whether Dave spied or not ensued. MK then launched attacks on CSN.
[/quote]
You're forgetting when CSN nuked dave. That's important too.

[RedPhx]

OMG I can't believe all this poor Dave talk. Depending on who you believe he either accepted and looked at info obtained from spying and played no role or he had just as active a role as everyone else involved, he is definitely not the first one to get zealed and so he should either talk it out with CSN or bend over and take it like a man. Also he should be greatful that we don't live in the barbaric days of Perma-zeal or Eterna-zeal IMHO.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='JohnKirk' timestamp='1339729865' post='2984295']
You're forgetting when CSN nuked dave. That's important too.
[/quote]

That's what happens when you're put on a ZI list.

[quote]OMG I can't believe all this poor Dave talk. Depending on who you believe he either accepted and looked at info obtained from spying and played no role or he had just as active a role as everyone else involved, he is definitely not the first one to get zealed and so he should either talk it out with CSN or bend over and take it like a man. Also he should be greatful that we don't live in the barbaric days of Perma-zeal or Eterna-zeal IMHO.[/quote]

That already happened. Dave agreed to his ZI and then decided he'd rather have more fun and start a war. (don't really blame him that much tbh) The logs are here in another topic if you'd like to make a personal judgement on how much spying he done.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Omniscient1

[Incitatus]

[quote name='JohnKirk' timestamp='1339729865' post='2984295']
You're forgetting when CSN nuked dave. That's important too.
[/quote]

Why? It's irrelevant as per the post you just quoted.

Don't get me wrong, this whole thing is hilarious. But it is very pie-in-the-sky.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1339729629' post='2984286']
So sad. Yes, why don't you do all this? It's funny you consider yourself better than alliances that have done this in the past. You're not. If GOD is guilty of this in the past, as many alliances are, at least GOD has maintained consistency in their actions through the years, and even matured in time. Accuse us of being monsters in that past, but you CANNOT accuse us of hyprocisy. It is YOUR hypocrisy which I am accusing you of, and again, is the only issue I take with this.

When you come up with a plausible way to deny that this war is simply a way for MK to flex its new power, go ahead, until then, you remain a hypocrite and have lost all possibility to ever use the "well at least we didn't do this card." You are NO BETTER than any alliance who has done anything of the sort in the past, and in fact, are quite worse, because most of those alliances never gained their power by pretending that wasn't what they are about. If you're going to do something, own it. I have absolutely no delusions about what GOD has done in the past, and I can live with myself. I would ask you to take that same stark look at what your alliance has become, and if you are comfortable with it, then so be it. But own it one way or another.
[/quote]


You accuse us without hypocrisy without basis. Going to war is not an act MK condemns. The issues we had with the NPO were far more extensive than them rolling the occasional alliance. Saying we're hypocrites and worse than they ever were is stupid when you consider that we haven't actually done any of the things we actually had a problem with. Memory really does dull things over time apparently, when people think a legit declaration of war is as bad as any of the things I listed.


I do agree with you in wishing MK would start doing those things though. At least then people saying we're as bad as the NPO ever was would have some actual foundation to base their argument upon. But unfortunately our government has more morals than that, and for some reason wants to at least toe the line of the post-karma world, rather than do the full reversion that we commonly get accused of.

[Goose]

I for one am all for this. It exposes MK and their ilk as the mouth-breathers they are, and I've been promised that eventually I'll get to blow !@#$ up.

It's wins all around if you ask me.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Lyria' timestamp='1339691691' post='2983548']
Ask any alliance. They have used their applications process to discuss existing wars that their applicants have. CSN did not do what 99% of alliances do, that being go to MK, query an official, and explain the situation again. Instead, CSN nuked while ignoring any attempts by MK to negotiate or even discuss the matter.
[/quote]
Actually, we did. You guys just felt like leaving it out of the OP because, contrary to what several of you have said in this thread, you were going to try and claim some sort of moral high ground. So let's review this whole situation from someone who has been, you know, involved.

When Rota released his logs, Liz and I immediately went to TIO. They set up a channel, and we talked about it. Four minutes into talking, he was given up. Stagger said that Dave posted his resignation from TIO, and that he would take full responsibility. Later in the night, Requia and I declared the first wars. Mere hours later King Brandon "raided" Dave.

The next day, Alyster from MK popped into #csn and got in touch with Liz. He asked what Dave's status was, Liz explained it, Alyster thanked Liz and that was the end of any Dave talk between the two.

[spoiler]
alyster[MK] Hey
19:22 Liz Hey man
19:23 alyster[MK] I just wanted to ask if you could shed some light into Dave93's case
19:23 alyster[MK] He applied to MK and moved to our applicant AA
19:23 Liz He's being ZI'ed
19:23 Liz He accepted screenshots from a spy. TIO gave him up, he resigned and will be ZI'ed then released.
19:24 alyster[MK] Ah, ok. That's a nice summary.
19:24 alyster[MK] Thnx
19:24 Liz No prob.
19:24 Liz Anything you can do about Brandon btw?
19:24 Liz He kinda took our stagger spot.
19:24 Liz And he's slot filling.
19:24 Liz Hasn't made an attack yet.
19:24 alyster[MK] Not really. First of all he's high gov and I'm only high command.
19:25 alyster[MK] Second of all he followed our raiding policy correctly
19:25 Liz To interfere on ZI's?
19:25 alyster[MK] No, to raid people on AAs below 10 ppl.
19:25 Liz Mmm noted.[/spoiler]

Moving on. I went to Leet Guy to ask if he could have Brandon try and peace out with Dave, and to have his guys not take any more of Dave's slots so we could just ZI him and move on with our lives.

[spoiler]Session Start: Tue Jun 12 22:24:08 2012
Session Ident: Teh1337Guy
01[22:24] <Gibsonator21> Hey
[22:24] <Teh1337Guy> Hello
01[22:25] <Gibsonator21> One of your dudes, King Brandon, hit someone we're currently ZIing. Want to know if (1.) you can try to get him to peace out so we can grab the last slot (if not it's not a huge deal), and (2.) could let your guys know not to take anymore slots once the current wars expire
01[22:26] <Gibsonator21> We're ZIing Dave93, and I'm the CSN MoD (if you weren't aware; not sure)
[22:26] <Teh1337Guy> Yeah I cant tell them not to attack in the future
[22:27] <Teh1337Guy> *can
[22:27] <Teh1337Guy> welp
[22:27] <Teh1337Guy> Yes I can do that.
01[22:27] <Gibsonator21> Awesome. Thanks a lot.
Session Close: Tue Jun 12 22:30:00 2012[/spoiler]

Next thing we did was to make sure we got up an OWF announcement to make sure someone /else/ didn't interfere in our ZI. Then I got a peace request from Dave. Naturally I didn't believe it, so I went back to Leet Guy to see what was up.

[spoiler]Session Start: Wed Jun 13 00:03:18 2012
Session Ident: Teh1337Guy
01[00:04] <Gibsonator21> Hey again.. I just got a peace request from Dave saying "Protected by MK"... anything to that, or he just seeing how gullible I am?
[00:06] <Teh1337Guy> He applied to MK
[00:08] <Teh1337Guy> Dave doesn't think he should be ZI'd for this
[00:08] <Teh1337Guy> It happened 9 months ago and, more inmportantly, Rota wasn't a "plant" by him that you've conveniently framed him to be
[00:08] <Teh1337Guy> But, rather, Rota started pouring info to him and he, of course, probed deeper
01[00:09] <Gibsonator21> That's strange, since he told TIO he would take full accountability.
[00:10] <Teh1337Guy> He came to us pissed his governemt fed him to the wolves
01[00:12] <Gibsonator21> Alright, and? He agreed to take full accountability. We have two offensive wars on him from before he was on your AA, and haven't been "quiet" about it that we're going to ZI him.
01[00:13] <Gibsonator21> After we ZI him, he's all yours to accept.
Session Close: Wed Jun 13 01:58:54 2012[/spoiler]

He didn't respond. And that was the end of any official contact between CSN and MK prior to this DoW. Hope that clears up anyone trying to say we didn't go to MK. Funny how they leave things like this out.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1339730181' post='2984301']
You accuse us without hypocrisy without basis. Going to war is not an act MK condemns. The issues we had with the NPO were far more extensive than them rolling the occasional alliance. Saying we're hypocrites and worse than they ever were is stupid when you consider that we haven't actually done any of the things we actually had a problem with. Memory really does dull things over time apparently, when people think a legit declaration of war is as bad as any of the things I listed.


I do agree with you in wishing MK would start doing those things though. At least then people saying we're as bad as the NPO ever was would have some actual foundation to base their argument upon. But unfortunately our government has more morals than that, and for some reason wants to at least toe the line of the post-karma world, rather than do the full reversion that we commonly get accused of.
[/quote]

Ha! You're like a religious zealot... you honest-to-goodness cannot even see how awful you are. I don't even know how to respond. You are exactly NPO. 100%. You saw an opportunity to flex your muscles and did so. The method makes not one iota of difference. All that matters is the ends. And don't worry about wishing that your alliance would begin to EZI or force colour moves. Continue down this path and you'll be there the next time war rolls around.

[KainIIIC]

looks like Sparta is off to Peace Mode... [i]again[/i].

[Omniscient1]

[quote]Mere hours later King Brandon "raided" Dave.

[/quote]

FOR DAVE!

Edited June 15, 2012 by Omniscient1