NoR Reunion Day Announcement

[Optimistic]

[quote name='Tibus Heth' timestamp='1337493026' post='2969735']
Who is Thorwhatshisname? If you mean a former member or something, I think it's safe to say that when Nordreich finds them, they root them out. just like I would expect LSF or INT to root out AntiFA criminals in their ranks. You know, the sorts that attack and kill people they think are racist? Violence and intolerance on [i]either[/i] side is unacceptable.
[/quote]
Yes, the fact that I am vehemently opposed to violent racism and fascism should mean that I cannot be a member of either INT or LSF. Seriously, I'd say that most of LSF would quite happily go along to an anti-fascist demonstration and quite a few wouldn't give a flying $%&@ if a neo-nazi skinhead went home with a broken nose. After all, what should they expect after preaching (and acting upon their words) hate and violence on all who aren't white, heterosexual males (and their white, female spouses of course). These are people who think that the holocaust which led to the death of approximately 11 million people was a great idea and in some cases even pretend that it never happened.

The fact is, your alliance will always attract some of these people and, as far as I have heard, you do a decent job of keeping them out and I congratulate you on that. But what is frustrating is that you refuse to admit to using nazi imagery - whether that's the intended meaning of it or not. It's just a fact that the odal rune was used by the nazis and because of that, upon seeing your use of it, what do you think people's first thoughts are going to be? You can say "oh, but it's a symbol for peace and lots of other wonderful things", but that's exactly the same as using a swastika and saying that you're using it as the Hindi symbol of peace and lots of other wonderful things. Of course I'm not saying "OMG UR ALL NAZIS", because that's just untrue. What you need to stop doing is denying that your symbolism has anything to do with nazis and say others are wrong for thinking that you might have used it as a nazi symbol - because, trust me, that's how it looks.

And drop your whole "oh, we're racists? well then you support genocide" argument. Communism is an ideology that seeks an equal society, free from all hierarchy. Its means to an end involves a dictatorship of the proletariat. Now, whether this method of achieving such a society is practical, effective or morally right is questionable, but the ideology itself certainly does not represent repression or genocide or any such things. On the other hand, Nazism and Fascism seek a society where citizens must seek a certain criteria based on skin colour, political beliefs, sexual preferences etc. Those who don't fit in to this society are fair game for gas chambers. And the genocide isn't like in communism where it's an unfortunate occasional side effect of employing a dictatorship to achieve a free society, fascism literally sets out to do these things and that is where it really differs from communism in this case.

And back to the imagery, perhaps to some people (for instance those who have lived under soviet rule etc.) the hammer and sickle is a symbol of oppression. But the symbol still is widely understood to stand for communism, i.e. the creation of an equal society. However, the odal rune's only modern purpose is served on nazi uniforms worn by those responsible for the massacre of around eleven million people. And even so, neither INT or LSF actually use the hammer and sickle anywhere. LSF use the black and red flag and the associated star of Libertarian Socialism and their name leads us to their political affiliation. "Libertarian Socialist Federation" is what it says it is - a group of libertarian socialists, i.e. left anarchists. Moving on to INT however, I kind of see your point. The gear on our flag is CLEARLY showing the gears involved in the tanks that rolled down the streets of Moscow and Stalingrad, murdering all dissenters and oppressing the masses. The wheat symbolises the bread which the people of the USSR so badly craved. It symbolises also the wheat fields in which innocent men and women were laid waste. The red star on our flag is an obvious symbol of the burning hot star of communism which burned through the souls of the oppressed people of the USSR. Oh wait, I just made up all of that...

Seriously, drop the argument. Your symbol serves its main purpose on nazi uniforms - just accept that. I'm not saying you should get rid of it or that it's offensive and I'm definitely not trying to say that you're nazis. Just leave it be and don't try arguing the "no we're not nazis, we just use their imagery" line - just don't respond to people who try to suggest that you're nazis due to your symbolism. Like Hereno said, that doesn't stop me, due to my hatred of fascism, from holding severe grudges against your alliance for using it, but coming out and saying that we're completely wrong for holding those grudges doesn't help that. And also as other people have said, saying that some alliances use the hammer and sickle and you believe that to be disgusting, offensive and should be removed doesn't help your point. What you're saying there is that we're horrible people, so you can be horrible people too - it doesn't work in your favour much. So yeah, it may be best for you not to respond to this. That doesn't mean that anybody's won the argument or anybody's surrendering, but it's clogging up your birthday thread and dragging your alliance's reputation down.

Good luck in the future, NoR.

[Chiftelos]

[quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1337492717' post='2969733']
Hmmm. So [b]Thorwhatshisname[/b] really wasn't a Nazi-wannabe skinhead bullet sponge(and it beld over into Bob)?[/quote]
You're talking about a dead man, close friend to a lot of people in this alliance, so I'd watch my mouth, you piece of used toilet paper. Show some respect.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1337493897' post='2969740']
If you walked through a Jewish neighborhood wearing that symbol, you would be walking through a Jewish neighborhood wearing a symbol of the Nazis.
[/quote]
Then you make sure to show me where on planet Bob the Jewish neighborhoods are and I'll hope to avoid them so I don't offend their sensibilities. Wouldn't want to offend anyone. That would be the worst and stuff.

But seriously this is an ancient and done conversation. And when I say done I mean done literally years ago. I appreciate the gusto each side has about this but it's really a non issue and it really should be dropped. GG everyone, on to more exciting, less inane things.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Tibus Heth' timestamp='1337493026' post='2969735']
Who is Thorwhatshisname? If you mean a former member or something, I think it's safe to say that when Nordreich finds them, they root them out. just like I would expect LSF or INT to root out AntiFA criminals in their ranks. You know, the sorts that attack and kill people they think are racist? Violence and intolerance on [i]either[/i] side is unacceptable.
[/quote]

Violence and intolerance on either side is unacceptable? Anti fascism is by definition a reaction to fascism. Violent confrontation of fascism isn't just acceptable, it's desirable.

[Optimistic]

Yeah, Sabcat's right.

Without fascism, there wouldn't be violent anti-fascism.

[Targaryen]

The difference between using nazi imagery and using socialist imagery is simple. Socialism advocates freedom and equality which means that anyone using genocide and oppression to achieve it's purposes it's an enemy of socialism. Nazism on the other hand openly advocates for racial discrimination and genocide. So nazi leader committing genocide would just stay true to his ideology while a communist leader doing this would be betraying his ideology. Leaders and governments shouldn't be judged for what they say but for what they do. Hitler did exactly what the Nazi ideology advocates so he is indeed a Nazi. Stalin on the other hand was a liar. He ,of course, called himself a communist, all dictators like to associate himself with ideals like freedom and equality but if we look at his actions we can see that he didn't live by this ideals. Stalin actions don't make communism bad they simply make him not a communist (or a bad communist, at least).

Furthermore, the majority of socialist ideologies don't agree with the more extreme actions taking in USSR. Most of us at LSF for example, being anarchist, disagree with pretty much everything about Soviet Russia and similar regimes. And all these socialist ideologies including most anarchist accept the Hammer ans Sickle as a symbol of socialism. There are no other nazi ideologies, on the other hand, so using the swastika and other nazi symbolism can mean only one thin. No nazi can say "I'm a nazi but I 100% disagree with everything Nazi Germany was standing for" while plenty of socialists say that about the USSR.

So while neither LSF nor Int use the Hammer and Sickle it would be nothing bad in they did so. While anyone using the swastika would definitely be a bad thing.

[pd73bassman]

[quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1337490737' post='2969719']
So you get disbanded twice and your still around? How many times has TPF been disbanded? Leadership changes, I am sure NoR -> NoV -> NoR has had quite a few leadership changes. IDK. IDC. It's not worth a piss on Hitler to me, or maybe it is.
[/quote]


Only NoV was forcefully disbanded fyi

As for how many times TPF has been disbanded, well there is always a first time

[pd73bassman]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1337521326' post='2969804']

But seriously this is an ancient and done conversation. And when I say done I mean done literally years ago. I appreciate the gusto each side has about this but it's really a non issue and it really should be dropped. GG everyone, on to more exciting, less inane things.
[/quote]


I am not sure why your guys keep taking the bait Weiss, we both know this never gets anywhere and it's exactly what they want

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Is this how you throw a party?

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='pd73bassman' timestamp='1337525744' post='2969826']
I am not sure why your guys keep taking the bait Weiss, we both know this never gets anywhere and it's exactly what they want
[/quote]
The young pups will always get excited but I really can't harsh on them because I was there once too. After a while the argument loses its luster. If all you've got is hurt feelings and forum posts then you'll not garner much attention from me. Bring some rolling tanks to my door and we'll talk. As misguided, deranged, and delusional as TPF was, at least they got that much right.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Captain Flinders

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1337530231' post='2969851']
The young pups will always get excited but I really can't harsh on them because I was there once too. After a while the argument loses its luster. If all you've got is hurt feelings and forum posts then you'll not garner much attention from me. Bring some rolling tanks to my door and we'll talk. As misguided, deranged, and delusional as TPF was, at least they got that much right.
[/quote]

Maybe you should make an Odal faq page. I'd love to know what you guys present it as.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1337531826' post='2969861']
Maybe you should make an Odal faq page. I'd love to know what you guys present it as.
[/quote]
I don't care to explain anything to you, nor am I obligated to.

OOC: If you have a genuine complaint of an OOC nature, this is not the place to voice it. Take it up with moderation. Keep in mind that this issue is not a new one and has been ruled on by moderation long ago and quite definitively. We've been clear on how we use it in an IC sense and you're not new here so you've likely seen this old song and dance at least once. If that's not enough for you I'm sure moderation would love to hear from some indignant, easily offended "revolutionaries" such as yourself.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Captain Flinders

[Sabcat]

I'm not offended in the slightest and I have no idea how you use the odal, hence my suggestion. Regardless of how you use it or your inspiration for it I would see no moderation issue. After all, it's a mark of failure used by the frightened.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1337533835' post='2969880']
I'm not offended in the slightest and I have no idea how you use the odal, hence my suggestion. Regardless of how you use it or your inspiration for it I would see no moderation issue. After all, it's a mark of failure used by the frightened.
[/quote]
While I'm glad to hear that you're not offended (because that would be silly), I apparently made the incorrect assumption that those arguing here would actually have educated themselves. Well then here, [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Culture_of_Nordland]I've done the legwork for you.[/url]

[quote]The chief symbol of Nordland is the Odal Rune of the Elder Futhark. The Odal symbolizes unity, brotherhood and strength. It is also used in many Odinist sects to represent ones native land, home, "folk" or people. Among the citizens of Nordland it is defined as being a standing representation of Folkish Nationalism. The symbol is also used in reference of Odin- Nordland's standing patriarch and founder of the Nordreich lineage. The Odal rune can be found on most Nordlandic banners, including images and crests associated with the Nordlands.[/quote]

That's what it is and that's how we use it. Someone spent a lot of time writing up all this juicy Nordland lore and history. The least you guys could do is read it if you're going to get all bent out of shape.

[Roadie]

[quote name='Tibus Heth' timestamp='1337494939' post='2969747']
You're trying to make the case that a thousands of years old rune is somehow inherently evil
[/quote]

It's not that the symbol is evil in and of itself, it's that nobody in their right mind would believe it's mere coincidence that it's been chosen by members of an alliance with a nationalist socialist theme.

Personally, I don't care why the symbol was chosen. NoR has done nothing wrong with regards to my alliance and isn't an ally of mine, beyond that the business of another alliance does not interest me. I do think though that NoR members using said symbol are being foolish by not expecting to get some heat over it. Best would be to do as pd73bassman suggests and don't respond. You know it doesn't mean what they claim, let it roll off your backs.

Feud or no feud, NoR has done well with this reincarnation. Celebrate an anniversary earned.

[USMC123]

[quote name='JuQu' timestamp='1337514701' post='2969791']
Hey hey hey! KKK Supermarket is well-known grocery shop here in Finland and it has nothing to do with burning cross's (etc).

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1229/1285796320_b2cba030e9.jpg[/img]


...anyway congrats Nordreich and I wanna thank you all members/allies/supporters who have contributed to create something beyond awesome! :cheers:
[/quote]

lmfao. The Ku Klux Klan then

[President Orff]

Congratulations Nordreich on the great milestone ! You will without a doubt become sanctioned soon, thank you for the loyal friendship, we love you guys.

Edited May 20, 2012 by President Orff

[The Mongol-Swedes]

[quote name='Alex Thompson' timestamp='1337524189' post='2969818']
Yeah, Sabcat's right.

Without fascism, there wouldn't be violent anti-fascism.
[/quote]

CN Antifa served its purpose. Now, people without a lot of NS can openly question the kind of imagery NoR uses without being booted out of the game via PZI, and NoR trying to gobble up every disaffected Nazi punk crying 'Germanophobia'.

There's Nord blood in quite a few members of the Left, I think that argument can safely be put to rest.

[WarriorConcept]

Hereno makes very good points.

(it hurt to type that )

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Alex Thompson' timestamp='1337524189' post='2969818']
Yeah, Sabcat's right.

Without fascism, there wouldn't be violent anti-fascism.
[/quote]

[OOC]I am trying not to even post on this thread anymore because nearly ever post is OOC and the entire argument really has no place on this forum. That said, this particular line does invite an IC response.[/OOC]

This is historically incorrect. Violent anti-fascism on this world predates the organisations that are being attacked as supposedly 'fascist,' whatever that means. Let's take a stroll down memory lane to the foundations of Nordreich. Back in early 2006 self-appointed 'antifascist' forces were waging relentless, aggressive wars against isolated nations simply because they had Nordish nation or ruler names, or chose to display a flag which the leftists disliked. It was this unjustified and unprovoked leftist aggression that forced Nordish nations to band together in self defense - forming primarily under the banners of the Prussian Federation and the Volksleitung, along with some smaller ones. Eventually these unified to form Nordreich in late 2006.

So, no, Alex, you are 100% completely wrong. Fascism did not preëxist anti-fascism here. Antifa prejudice and aggression was the initial force, and Nordreich formed in response to that violence, not before it.

Whether the word 'fascist' is accurate in any way, or what on Bob it might actually mean other than 'people the leftists dont like' is an entirely different discussion, and probably doesnt belong here.

[Cataduanes]

I always preferred the 'Black Sun' which was an old Alemanni tribal symbol adopted by the SS, but that's just me . Anyway this thread looks like it needs another case of Früh Kölsch...with my compliments of course...

[img]http://www.getraenke-frieling.de/online-bestellung/images/bier/IMGP1770.jpg[/img]

Edited May 20, 2012 by Cataduanes

[Optimistic]

[quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1337546880' post='2969937']
;
Being a close friend of a lot of people in your alliance proves a lot. People who dislike racism even a small bit wouldn't say that. Oh, I imagine that there are people in your alliance that do not know what goes on behind government doors, but that can always be changed.

:OOC: I am quite aware he is dead & got what he deserved(by his own filth none-the-less). If you do decide to enforce me watching my mouth, be careful when you knock on my door, it knocks back. :OOC:


Thanks for the clarification. TPF will NEVER disband, my beef is not with you, but with NoR & their hidden beliefs. Haven't you learned that we don't care about beat downs. We keep on fighting. No complaining, no whining, nothing but good clean casualties.

They can say they use "ancient" symbols all they want, but the taint of yesterday will forever be on them. No different than pissing on a white t-shirt, your not gonna get the stain out, not out of the t-shirt either.


What do you mean "was"? I piss on Nazis, didn't you know?

[img]http://www.ericsdonaldson.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Calvin_Peeing-300x300.jpg[/img]
Hitlers favorite pass time...
[/quote]
I like you.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Chiftelos' timestamp='1337517947' post='2969796']
You're talking about a dead man, close friend to a lot of people in this alliance, so I'd watch my mouth, you piece of used toilet paper. Show some respect.
[/quote]

Such lovely friends you choose. Birds of a feather and all that.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1337553060' post='2969972']
Such lovely friends you choose. Birds of a feather and all that.
[/quote]


I was kind of thinking the same, how can someone know about that dude, befriend him and think he's great. Then wonder why people claim them as similar or with similar beliefs.

As for the symbols, I don't really care, it is what it is.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='pd73bassman' timestamp='1337221693' post='2968342']
...a certain group of individuals and their constant idiocy.
[/quote]

Name names, I'm sure we can organise something to help NoR along with solving their problems.