Announcement from Pandora's Box

[Raken]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334318923' post='2952096']
I don't see how people can objectively fault this; it was rather good of PB to let Kaskus have fun for this long, because if it were done to one of my bloc-mates I'd have far less of a sense of humour about it. For what purpose did people think PB was signed into existence, if not for uniting to win wars? I get the sense that people are enjoying some schadenfreude, but if acting in rational self-interest is now a PR hit, what the hell?
[/quote]

What else are all the little birds going to chirp about then?!

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1334320389' post='2952108']
We'll have something to talk about when Kaskus picks up someone with an 11-digit warchest I think.

Not a terrible attempt at deflecting attention from the fact that GOONS [i]called in their whole bloc[/i], though. Maybe next time.
[/quote]

Personally I wouldn't have faulted GOD/Xiph if he did so on Vlad (not sure if he did or did not). It's kinda ironic though that he does give GOONS !@#$ for basically the same stuff. Playing down GOONS war ability while GOD itself doesn't have much of a war ability. Same could be said for almost all SF signatories and alliances like MCXA. Now if say TOP or MK actually shatted on GOONS, they would have a point because they are actually able to grind !@#$ down.

Also I don't necessary think this is bad PR for PB. Why would it? We DoW to grind Kaskus and Mongols into dust so GOONS doesn't have to be in war for months on end. That's what allies are supposed to do. It's nothing different than when GOONS were hit by Ninja's. We were there for them then, and are there for them now.

Besides, some of you guys seem to think this will slow PB growth done. Lol. Do you really think we will stop importing tech and building our warchests for those handful of nations? If you do, you are indeed mad.

[Sephiroth]

Wow, Umbrella and GOONS weren't enough to take on Kaskus and Mongols? Umbrella/GOONS need to learn how to fight, this is getting ridiculous that you guys need to call in all of Pandora's Box for backup against some micros.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334321521' post='2952114']
Wow, Umbrella and GOONS weren't enough to take on Kaskus and Mongols? Umbrella/GOONS need to learn how to fight, this is getting ridiculous that you guys need to call in all of Pandora's Box for backup against some micros.
[/quote]

It's almost as if both Umbrella and GOONS represent polar extremes of ranges, making them unsuitable for filling all slots forever, and both are members of a bloc capable of ensuring that happens.

[Illustrious]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334321521' post='2952114']
Wow, Umbrella and GOONS weren't enough to take on Kaskus and Mongols? Umbrella/GOONS need to learn how to fight, this is getting ridiculous that you guys need to call in all of Pandora's Box for backup against some micros.
[/quote]
Seriously, as I said earlier in the thread Umbrella quickly razed the one nation that was in our range. I don't know if you noticed but Umbrella had a total of four wars declared. 3 against Valkyrie and one from Valkyrie against one of ours that was on the GOONS AA fighting his own battles.

[Stewie]

PB as a whole fills all regions quite nicely.

If someone wants to come and fill the 70k NS region, that'd be much appreciated as I am very bored.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334321725' post='2952115']
It's almost as if both Umbrella and GOONS represent polar extremes of ranges, making them unsuitable for filling all slots forever, and both are members of a bloc capable of ensuring that happens.
[/quote]
So you're saying they are both very ineffective at war by design, that doesn't make it any better. Alliances horrible at war are horrible at war, whether that is on purpose or not.

[Laslo Kenez]

The level of cognitive dissonance on show in this thread is exactly why so many alliances are continually worthless.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334321856' post='2952119']
The level of cognitive dissonance on show in this thread is exactly why so many alliances are continually worthless.
[/quote]
I'm sensing some of that cognitive dissonance in your post, both GOONS and Umbrella have designed their alliances so they are unable to effectively wage war at all without bringing in most of their allies. That they designed their alliances that way shows they don't care about being powerful war machines, but would rather rely on having a lot of treaties to be able to wage war even against the smallest of alliances.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Methrage

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334321841' post='2952118']
So you're saying they are both very ineffective at war by design, that doesn't make it any better. Alliances horrible at war are horrible at war, whether that is on purpose or not.
[/quote]

They're enormously effective if you completely engage them at face value, head on. They are "ineffective" (although good luck ever growing any nations above 80k against Umbrella or recruiting new folks against GOONS) if you exist between the range of both, but they have countered that weakness by cementing partnerships with alliances that compliment them well in that area. Thus, they become effective again.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334322083' post='2952121']
They're enormously effective if you completely engage them at face value, head on. They are "ineffective" (although good luck ever growing any nations above 80k against Umbrella or recruiting new folks against GOONS) if you exist within the range of both, but they have countered that weakness by cementing partnerships with alliances that compliment them well in that area. Thus, they become effective again.
[/quote]
They're not effective if after one round of war, they can no longer continue to wage war on any of their targets. Although GOONS just aren't effective period it seems.

[Canik]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334304956' post='2952029']
Actually, Canik, proving another person is a hypocrite doesn't invalidate their argument. That's referred to as Tu quoque, or appeal to hypocrisy, which is a logical fallacy.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque"]Tu quoque[/url]

Just sayin'.

*Edit: No, I don't care about the actual argument, nor is it pertinent to the topic at hand.
[/quote]


Kzoppistan, I didn't say his argument was invalidated because he was a hypocrite. I said his argument fails & he is a hypocrite. So, thanks for extending this for nothing.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1334291313' post='2951842']
Do you want to end this war? If so just lower the rep amount. That simple. On Planet Bob, 1 to 20 odds isn't a whole lot of difference than 1 to one million. This is just making you look pathetic and stupid.
[/quote]

It is a pretty strange day when I agree with Omni.

This really does not make you look good GOONS. I know you don't care (much) but this still is pretty amusing.

Edit: To clarify, I don't objectively have a problem calling in allies. However, when you bite off more than you can chew sometimes it is better to realize you made a mistake and this could have been handled better diplomatically before you declared. I personally believe it would look better for GOONS to let Mongols/Kaskus off light at this point instead of taking a PR hit over something so ridiculous.

Edited April 13, 2012 by kerschbs

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334322247' post='2952122']
They're not effective if after one round of war, they can no longer continue to wage war on any of their targets. Although GOONS just aren't effective period it seems.
[/quote]

This is where the rest of the bloc comes in. Did you ever watch Power Rangers as a kid? It's like that massive multi-part robot thing they build at the end of every episode.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334322083' post='2952121']
They're enormously effective if you completely engage them at face value, head on. They are "ineffective" (although good luck ever growing any nations above 80k against Umbrella or recruiting new folks against GOONS) if you exist between the range of both, but they have countered that weakness by cementing partnerships with alliances that compliment them well in that area. Thus, they become effective again.
[/quote]
We've been through this already.

GOONS outnumbered Kaskus and Mongols 4 to 1 in the ranges between 33k and 15k

4 to 1

Let's repeat that again

4 to 1

If they're ineffective at 4 to 1 while getting their aid slots filled with aid from their allies, then they really need have better preparation.

Wonders or not, outnumbering them 4 to 1 should be adequate to keep nations in Kaskus in eternal anarchy. They've so far failed to do that spectacularly.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334322441' post='2952125']
This is where the rest of the bloc comes in. Did you ever watch Power Rangers as a kid? It's like that massive multi-part robot thing they build at the end of every episode.
[/quote]
Doesn't change how much this war highlights how weak GOONS actually are, if GOONS didn't have so many allies willing to bail them out of the messes they get themselves into due to their aggressiveness they probably would of been forced to surrender to Kaskus this war eventually.

GOONS is like that kid who goes around bullying other kids, then when one of them fights back and hits him in the nose, he runs off crying to his older brother about it and gets his brother to beat the kid up for him that he wasn't able to beat up himself.

[steodonn]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334322247' post='2952122']
They're not effective if after one round of war, they can no longer continue to wage war on any of their targets. Although GOONS just aren't effective period it seems.
[/quote]

Your missing the point. Theres no reason you would have to fight GOONS and Umbrella alone. There strengths complement their allies strength and the bloc as a whole ends up stronger

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='steodonn' timestamp='1334323018' post='2952128']
Your missing the point. Theres no reason you would have to fight GOONS and Umbrella alone. There strengths complement their allies strength and the bloc as a whole ends up stronger
[/quote]
They don't need to be strong or effective fighters, since they have allies for that. I understand what you're saying, although alliances who's power is completely reliant on their allies yet they still try strong arming other alliances are usually thought of as a joke and not respected by most.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1334322544' post='2952126']
We've been through this already.

GOONS outnumbered Kaskus and Mongols 4 to 1 in the ranges between 33k and 15k

4 to 1

Let's repeat that again

4 to 1

If they're ineffective at 4 to 1 while getting their aid slots filled with aid from their allies, then they really need have better preparation.

Wonders or not, outnumbering them 4 to 1 should be adequate to keep nations in Kaskus in eternal anarchy. They've so far failed to do that spectacularly.
[/quote]

"Wonders or not" - actually, that whole statistical set-up basically ignores every single advantage Kaskus seemed to have in that range, and moreover suggests that any amount of aid can really do anything for a lower-tier nation that's battling away at a well stocked former-upper tier nation beyond artificially keep them in the fight. I've been there. I'm sure GOONS could always have been more effective, but by and large getting nuked every other day by some guy with 1k infra and 4k tech and a few hundred million in the bank is a task without foreseeable end.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='steodonn' timestamp='1334323018' post='2952128']
Your missing the point. Theres no reason you would have to fight GOONS and Umbrella alone. There strengths complement their allies strength and the bloc as a whole ends up stronger
[/quote]
Oh of course not. Still doesn't hide the fact that GOONS have utterly failed to suppress 2 micros made up of roughly 40 nations, even to the point of not keeping them staggered, despite having a massive advantage in numbers.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334323195' post='2952131']
"Wonders or not" - actually, that whole statistical set-up basically ignores every single advantage Kaskus seemed to have in that range, and moreover suggests that any amount of aid can really do anything for a lower-tier nation that's battling away at a well stocked former-upper tier nation beyond artificially keep them in the fight. I've been there. I'm sure GOONS could always have been more effective, but by and large getting nuked every other day by some guy with 1k infra and 4k tech and a few hundred million in the bank is a task without foreseeable end.
[/quote]
Why haven't they been able to keep Kaskus members staggered? Again, all this shows is either 1. how bad GOONS are at war, or 2. how inactive their nations are. I simply can't think up of an excuse they can use to explain why people like GantanX haven't been staggered at all.

Edited April 13, 2012 by R3nowned

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334322811' post='2952127']
Doesn't change how much this war highlights how weak GOONS actually are, if GOONS didn't have so many allies willing to bail them out of the messes they get themselves into due to their aggressiveness they probably would of been forced to surrender to Kaskus this war eventually.

GOONS is like that kid who goes around bullying other kids, then when one of them fights back and hits him in the nose, he runs off crying to his older brother about it and gets his brother to beat the kid up for him that he wasn't able to beat up himself.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is that the diplomatic side of this game is for cowards, and that you are fully entitled to make claims that don't take into account strategies that make use of diplomacy.

[quote]
They don't need to be strong or effective fighters, since they have allies for that. I understand what you're saying, although alliances who's power is completely reliant on their allies yet they still try strong arming other alliances are usually thought of as a joke and not respected by most.
[/quote]

I'm sure everyone who's lost a war to PB in the last year and a half considers them a weak joke, too.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334323357' post='2952133']
So what you're saying is that the diplomatic side of this game is for cowards, and that you are fully entitled to make claims that don't take into account strategies that make use of diplomacy.



I'm sure everyone who's lost a war to PB in the last year and a half considers them a weak joke, too.
[/quote]
I was referring mostly to GOONS, who's only strength is their allies yet they try acting tough and pushing other alliances around, as well as try picking on those they perceive as weaker than them.

That the rest of PB flexes their muscle to do so GOONS can get away with pushing other alliances around and treating them like !@#$ just makes me dislike PB regardless of whether some of the other alliances don't usually treat other alliances unfairly, except when they are supporting GOONS in doing so.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Methrage

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1334319187' post='2952099']
Hey, I would refuse to pay reps in this situation if I were Mongols as well, but then again I guess we share things like "pride" and "self-respect," which are likely foreign to an alliance like yours. I've always thought that distinction was where we differ to the greatest extent.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that your alliance coughed up reparations to us in the DH-NPO war. What was your point about "pride" and "self-respect" exactly?

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334323475' post='2952135']
I was referring mostly to GOONS, who's only strength is their allies yet they try acting tough and pushing other alliances around, as well as try picking on those they perceive as weaker than them.
[/quote]

I don't for a moment condone a lot of the stuff GOONS does, but the idea that they're not to be respected or that they're a soft target is ridiculous, because they clearly have their own stategies that work for now. If they had a bad strategy that didn't work, they'd be a joke, but this is literally the opposite of what's going on.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1334323773' post='2952137']
I don't for a moment condone a lot of the stuff GOONS does, but the idea that they're not to be respected or that they're a soft target is ridiculous, because they clearly have their own stategies that work for now. If they had a bad strategy that didn't work, they'd be a joke, but this is literally the opposite of what's going on.
[/quote]
Their strategy going into this war wasn't to call in all of PB, they were forced to do it since their original strategy of trying to fight by themselves didn't work. This is an embarrassment for them and I'm sure even some of their allies are face palming that they need to mobilize all of PB to take on two micro alliances. When GOONS declared on Mongols, I remember at least one member of GOONS said he would quit the alliance if they had to call in allies to fight some micros when I predicted they would need to.