Who dares disturb our sleep?

[Mogar]

[quote name='Sweeeeet Ronny D' timestamp='1324106338' post='2880406']
You had 9 months to prepare, if that wasnt enough time for you, really the only person you should be blaming is yourself.
[/quote]
I'll take missing the point for 1000.

[Phaedron]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1324101856' post='2880366']
It was where the coalition could use some reinforcements, nothing personal and you should take it as a compliment. We have all been enjoying your members' spirit throughout this war and hope to shake hands and walk away at the end of it.
[/quote]

I can't disagree with you man -- I'm just dismayed at the dogpiling on our side of the war. If it was just GATO + VE, we might be able to handle it, and then MHA has MK now on top of everything else.

At least you got in first

And thanks for the compliment sincerely -- we in The Apparatus are proud of our members' fighting spirit and tenacity in the face of adversity.

[Micheal Malone]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324100041' post='2880336']
NG: You guys live up to your reputation via that PM I referenced above. You symbolize all that is wrong with CN, and I'd rather be perma-ZI'ed than bow to your bullying ways.
[/quote]

Rawr rawr and such. Because yes, it was us who forced you to roll to war... [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]

Since my current Fark target appears a bit limp in the war department, perhaps I should engage an apparatus member. I assure you, I have a very limited warchest and don't know the first thing about war.

Edit: Correction on target alliance... late night brain farts.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Micheal Malone

[Crymson]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1324021691' post='2879723']
sorry we didn't spend 3 years collecting taxes!
[/quote]

You've managed to make yet another irrelevant statement.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Crymson

[Monster]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1324101856' post='2880366']
It was where the coalition could use some reinforcements, nothing personal and you should take it as a compliment. We have all been enjoying your members' spirit throughout this war and hope to shake hands and walk away at the end of it.
[/quote]

This is correct.

Props to App for entering on the losing side despite no obligation and the amount of treaties you had on the winning side. Odd, though.

[Phaedron]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1324116448' post='2880478']
This is correct.

Props to App for entering on the losing side despite no obligation and the amount of treaties you had on the winning side. Odd, though.
[/quote]

Never said we weren't a bunch of odd ducks -- but we are odd ducks who see a fight we feel is unfair against our allies, and we feel obliged to jump in. If that brings us to ZI, then so be it, but we will fight long and hard and with as much honor as we can muster. That is all we can ask, and all we can give.

That said, thanks for the kind words

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1324111398' post='2880450']
Rawr rawr and such. Because yes, it was us who forced you to roll to war... [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]
[/quote]

It's not that you declared war on us. You will notice my high level of respect for GATO's interactions with us, and an increasing level of respect for VE as well. Despite my misgivings about the way they entered the war, they have conducted themselves admirably.

Threatening PMs are simply uncalled for and unnecessary, and the only one I've gotten has been from an NG member.

Again, War is war. How you conduct yourself during that war is a matter of honor and valor.

[smurthwaite]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324117771' post='2880485']
Never said we weren't a bunch of odd ducks -- but we are odd ducks who see a fight we feel is unfair against our allies, and we feel obliged to jump in. If that brings us to ZI, then so be it, but we will fight long and hard and with as much honor as we can muster. That is all we can ask, and all we can give.

That said, thanks for the kind words



It's not that you declared war on us. You will notice my high level of respect for GATO's interactions with us, and an increasing level of respect for VE as well. Despite my misgivings about the way they entered the war, they have conducted themselves admirably.

Threatening PMs are simply uncalled for and unnecessary, and the only one I've gotten has been from an NG member.

Again, War is war. How you conduct yourself during that war is a matter of honor and valor.
[/quote]

Long Live the Resistance!

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324109753' post='2880433']
I can't disagree with you man -- I'm just dismayed at the dogpiling on our side of the war. If it was just GATO + VE, we might be able to handle it, and then MHA has MK now on top of everything else.

[/quote]

You don't go to war to be killed, you go to war to kill. Why people still continue to bemoan the fact that it's better to stack NS in favorable terms for yourself in a coalition war is beyond me.

[Holy Empire of Halin]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' timestamp='1324335758' post='2882138']
You don't go to war to be killed, you go to war to kill. Why people still continue to bemoan the fact that it's better to stack NS in favorable terms for yourself in a coalition war is beyond me.
[/quote]

A great man once said
[quote] the New Pacific Order. For years they ruled with an iron fist. They engineered a multitude of first strike "curbstomps,"[/quote]
History repeats itself, no?

[Phaedron]

[quote name='Holy Empire of Halin' timestamp='1324336504' post='2882143']
A great man once said

History repeats itself, no?
[/quote]


Well said.

The usage of a sledgehammer to crush smaller alliances might seem like fun now, but when those nation rulers quit this world to go find another place to have fun on a slightly more fair footing, perhaps you'll see the error of your BLOC-ish ways. I hate this war in exactly the same way I hated NPO hegemony. It's just folks showing me the absolute worst humanity has to offer: "might makes right, and forget honor, courage, or valor".

If that's what Bob has become about again, you can count me out. I will continue to fight on for the sake of The Apparatus (I've still got quite a few nukes left), but after that, don't worry, you won't be seeing me around anymore.

You've proven your point: it's more fun for you (and others) to engage in a curbstomp than it is to fight on a remotely fair basis. Cool for you.

No "wah" here. I've had a great run of 5 years or so of having fun playing CN -- but I can't have any fun attacking a tank with a toothpick, and I'm seeing that trend continue in the future. C'est la vie. There will be other games

[lonewolfe2015]

Look out Lanna, I bet FOK wants this war too.

Oh, and hey.

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='Holy Empire of Halin' timestamp='1324336504' post='2882143']
A great man once said

History repeats itself, no?
[/quote]


A wise man saw how to beat them at their own game.

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324348471' post='2882284']
Well said.

The usage of a sledgehammer to crush smaller alliances might seem like fun now, but when those nation rulers quit this world to go find another place to have fun on a slightly more fair footing, perhaps you'll see the error of your BLOC-ish ways. I hate this war in exactly the same way I hated NPO hegemony. It's just folks showing me the absolute worst humanity has to offer: "might makes right, and forget honor, courage, or valor".

If that's what Bob has become about again, you can count me out. I will continue to fight on for the sake of The Apparatus (I've still got quite a few nukes left), but after that, don't worry, you won't be seeing me around anymore.

You've proven your point: it's more fun for you (and others) to engage in a curbstomp than it is to fight on a remotely fair basis. Cool for you.

No "wah" here. I've had a great run of 5 years or so of having fun playing CN -- but I can't have any fun attacking a tank with a toothpick, and I'm seeing that trend continue in the future. C'est la vie. There will be other games
[/quote]


You seem to believe that winning a war by statistical and tactical maneuverings and advantages implies that hegemonic rule will be imposed. This is not the case. Comparing that to the NPO hegemony of the past is simply wrong. Yes they employed similar military tactics (because guess what it's how you win wars here), but they also utilized a very totalitarian rule, one truly of might makes right. Nobody cried about it in reverse when NPO was beat down by 17 alliances (except maybe NPO). Nobody cried about TOP being hit by 23 alliances (not even TOP). By your logic those two instances were morally wrong when in fact they were tactical necessities of the times. Your response is of course that small alliances aren't the megalithic powers that NPO and TOP were in their respective destructions - but it is a relatively irrelevant issue. Why in the world would you waste time going 1-1 with a small alliance when you can get them out of the picture quickly, and reallocate resources to more important areas? Again it simply comes down to tactics and strategies, it has nothing to do with morality.

Remember that this universe is dictated by politics - wars are simply extensions and realizations of said politics and how well you engage in said politics. Find yourself on the back end of a beating? You simply did poorly in the most important part. This is how NPO and the hegemony was taken down. This is why you have been taken down. Small alliances can matter, you simply have to stop being a pawn and realize that the statistical power of an alliance does not always dictate it's actual power; GPA for instance on one side and some of the PF alliances on the small scale spectrum - not being biased there are just very small member counts in most PF alliances comparatively yet PF finds itself in roles beyond it's statistical power whereas GPA with their statistical greatness currently in the #1 position and a good chunk of NS, in their decision to forego politics have also given up all their power (this is also why they were originally able to be rolled).

If you want to continue with the moralistic aspects and honorable aspects of war, then I have to simply call you crazy. What honor is there in killing? What moral righteousness comes from it?

[Crymson]

[quote name='Holy Empire of Halin' timestamp='1324336504' post='2882143']
A great man once said

History repeats itself, no?
[/quote]

You're a very smart guy, HeoH, so I'm surprised to see you state such a broken comparison. I know you guys are unhappy about the size of the forces arrayed against Sparta, but war is war, and the goal in war is to win, and the best way to win is to utilize the most effective strategies available. Your complaint here is not against the strategy of overwhelming forces being brought to bear in war, but rather against the fact that this very valid strategy is being used against one of your allies.

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324348471' post='2882284']
Well said.

The usage of a sledgehammer to crush smaller alliances might seem like fun now, but when those nation rulers quit this world to go find another place to have fun on a slightly more fair footing, perhaps you'll see the error of your BLOC-ish ways. I hate this war in exactly the same way I hated NPO hegemony. It's just folks showing me the absolute worst humanity has to offer: "might makes right, and forget honor, courage, or valor".
[/quote]

OK, so your issue here is that you don't like wars. If that's the case, then join a neutral alliance. This is a political world, and war is a vital part of politics here.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Crymson

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Star Gazing' timestamp='1323929393' post='2878552']
Plus, a dance is always a good idea.
[/quote]
Dance like no one is watching.

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324357654' post='2882398']
This is a political world, and war is a vital part of politics here.
[/quote]
Oui! War [i][b]is diplomacy.[/b][/i]

[Phaedron]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324357654' post='2882398']
OK, so your issue here is that you don't like wars.
[/quote]

I think you're avoiding the posts in the past where I have discussed the fact that the current wars are without CB, once a standard almost all alliances were forced to abide by here on the OWF. Did you see MK's DoW? lol.

I participated in a number of the Great Wars, Karma, and a number of smaller wars since. This is different. This is an audience standing around cheering on a curb-stomping on multiple fronts. Again, I dispute the notion that total number of troops / land / citizens has always been the sole determining factor of success in CN. Perhaps that's the case now, but there was a time when an alliance's reputation meant something. There was a time when it was looked down upon to have 3 sanctioned alliances all attacking a single alliance of 72 people.

It was sort of like saying "how dare you stick up for your allies, we shall not only fight you on fair grounds, but hit you so hard you don't want to come back."

I'm beginning to understand that most people in CN are okay about wars without CB or even remotely fair fight now.

That's fine. It's an important realization to make.

But that doesn't mean I don't like wars -- I just don't like garbage wars.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Phaedron

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324357654' post='2882398']
You're a very smart guy, HeoH, so I'm surprised to see you state such a broken comparison. I know you guys are unhappy about the size of the forces arrayed against Sparta, but war is war, and the goal in war is to win, and the best way to win is to utilize the most effective strategies available. Your complaint here is not against the strategy of overwhelming forces being brought to bear in war, but rather against the fact that this very valid strategy is being used against one of your allies.



[/quote]

If they're upset they have an odd way of showing it.

All things considered.... How long they've known and tacit consent, their role in eliminating multiple fronts so that "overwhelming force," is free to hit Sparta....

Hm.

Interesting.

I'll file this one under faux care?

Edited December 20, 2011 by IYIyTh

[janax]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1324396663' post='2882576']
If they're upset they have an odd way of showing it.

All things considered.... How long they've known and tacit consent, their role in eliminating multiple fronts so that "overwhelming force," is free to hit Sparta....

[/quote]

You can't apply "overwhelming force" to an alliance with half it's membership and probably 3/4th of it's ns in pm. This is not a pm joke, simply reality.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1324397969' post='2882582']
You can't apply "overwhelming force" to an alliance with half it's membership and probably 3/4th of it's ns in pm. This is not a pm joke, simply reality.
[/quote]

I didn't say I agreed or disagreed, merely commenting on what I perceived to be really after-the-fact faux care on the part of a certain few.

Hence the quotations around "overwhelming force."

Edited December 20, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Monster]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1324396663' post='2882576']
If they're upset they have an odd way of showing it.

All things considered.... How long they've known and tacit consent, their role in eliminating multiple fronts so that "overwhelming force," is free to hit Sparta....

Hm.

Interesting.

I'll file this one under faux care?
[/quote]

You're an idiot if you think that. Want to know what would have really been freeing up people to hit Sparta and an easy tech raid? I think you know.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Roquentin

[Melancholy Culkin]

Well, have fun I guess.

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1323988336' post='2879138']
Lanna has too similar of tastes to my own for that to work out, two dominant people = someone ends up dying.
[/quote]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1323997388' post='2879319']
except for the fact she's well over the age of 18, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your personal attacks!
[/quote]


Too dominant, eh?

[smurthwaite]

I don't know Lanna other than by name, but there are two things I want to point out here:
1st, Gowfanatic and I go way back and if he endorses this DoW (which he clearly does) then the only conclusion to be drawn is that it is the classy thing to do and that general hilariousness will be a part of the fun.
2nd, by all accounts, Apparatus is good people. Those who are allied to them obviously think so and I have ssen nothing but respect on the boards by those who are sparring with them; this leads to only one logical conclusion. Those who are speaking of App in an ill manor are those who have no idea what they are talking about. It seems as the loudest people in this discussion are also the most supid and ignorant, mouth breathing cave dwellers.

That being said, I offer these words of encouragement to my good friends in both App and the depths of the undead:

ALL HAIL THE RESISTANCE.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1324465380' post='2883243']
You're an idiot if you think that. Want to know what would have really been freeing up people to hit Sparta and an easy tech raid? I think you know.
[/quote]

Roq... Gee, I don't know why they wouldn't hit Fark. (Assuming that's what you're suggesting.)
Perhaps because they wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting?

"We won't hit Fark, we'll just eliminate an entire other front and let the other people take the brunt of whom is universally regarded as the more military competent / worrisome foe."

Makes perfect rational sense to me that if you're going to $%&@ a bunch of people over who might have the propensity to be upset about it in the future to do it while taking the least amount of damage possible. Substituting one front from the other doesn't matter and makes little difference (Instead of X Y Z !@#$piling Fark, Just U while X Y Z go clean up isle four. Or X Y Z !@#$pile, but you know what, we'll do you all a favor and just hit our allies MDoAP partner and enable X Y Z to hit you instead.) You should be thanking us for it! We told you were going to have to make difficult decisions, and we tried warning you we were going to $%&@ you over, but we told you about it so you should be happy. In fact, you should be thanking us for allowing this to happen because it could be worse (Huh?) Since when did not pre-emptively attacking your allies bloc-mates for little reason become a favor?

Not seeing how changing the names does much except mean a little less damage for one party. (Hint hint, not Fark!)
Equal fast descent out of that upper tier's range either way!


In fact, I view both one in the same and I know I'm not alone in that point of view. No one is fooled, and if they're being quiet, it's because they're literally too blind, incompetent, are allied, hope to be allied or just have no spine and would rather pray for scraps than call !@#$%^&* or are way ahead of me in this post. OR some of their other "Allies," proved to have bigger knives aimed at their backs. They made that decision when you left. I get that it's still somewhat home and you'd like it not to be so, but it is.

We both know what they could have done to prevent it if they genuinely cared, though. In fact, this is just going out on a limb, but I'm [i]willing to bet [/i]if they decided not to do anything rather than opt in on third party OA's to hit allies MDoAP partners or do others bidding so that their friends could burn their direct allies to the ground this whole war might look drastically different. I just have a feeling.

It certainly hasn't happened. Quite the opposite, in fact.
What am I missing here, or are we all going to pretend that's not what happened for political efficacy?
If people are genuinely upset with what their reality is, perhaps they should ask themselves why it is so and what they could do to fix it than living with absolutely deplorable behavior.
Doing otherwise just implies tacit consent.

In before "Do something about it," "Ad-hominem," "X isn't as upset as you that we $%&@ed them over, why are you?"

[img]http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/iaintevenmadp1.gif[/img]

...But I know some people who should and have every reason to be.

Edited December 21, 2011 by IYIyTh

[jalap]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1324396141' post='2882572']It was sort of like saying "how dare you stick up for your allies, we shall not only fight you on fair grounds, but hit you so hard you don't want to come back."

I'm beginning to understand that most people in CN are okay about wars without CB or even remotely fair fight now.

That's fine. It's an important realization to make.[/quote]
Well, although I share your pessimism, I have high hopes that we are merely seeing a snapshot of a certain moment in time. The tendency these days is delivering a quick win for some alliances, but we can only guess what the long term effects will be. Surely, planet Bob can't last long in the state of anarchy it is in right now.

In any case, my respect to The Apparatus, I love you guys!