CAMTIN DoW

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1323372018' post='2869417']
1. Carpe Diem shouldn't have been there in the first place. SEEING AS THEY RENEG'D A SURRENDER TERM THEY SIGNED A FEW DAYS EARLIER.
2. TOOL didn't pay a dime and we knew that before they surrendered.
[/quote]
Carpe Diem did not violate their surrender terms. It is the difference between what actually happened and the version of history that is written by the victors, and that is that. Whether or not TOOL disbanded has no bearing on the fact that you charged them the reps. If I run out on a bar tab, the bill does not cease to exist.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1323372018' post='2869417']
1. Carpe Diem shouldn't have been there in the first place. SEEING AS THEY RENEG'D A SURRENDER TERM THEY SIGNED A FEW DAYS EARLIER.
2. TOOL didn't pay a dime and we knew that before they surrendered.
[/quote]
Those are facts that challenge the original viewpoint and therefore are completely irrelevant.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323369904' post='2869381']
You are patently wrong, and 5 minutes' research would do you well if you're going to make your decisions about what's right or wrong or who to associate with based on past actions.

MK demanded defensive reparations from NPO's supporters for themselves and their allies whose sum makes DT's reps positively negligible.
MK itself charged Carpe Diem, an alliance comparable in size to DT, [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100267]18,000 in tech[/url]--twice that demanded of DT by CSN--plus $150,000,000, the cash equivalent of another 2,000 tech. MK charged TOOL [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100820]26,000 tech[/url].
Doom House charged the remainder of us $2,809,000,000 in reps, including Olympus if there hadn't been a screw-up in the wording of the surrender document. That's a total of over 3 billion with a [size="4"]B[/size] in reps for daring to activate our defensive treaties and stand in their way. And it all depends on short-sighted, giggling schoolboys standing behind them to empower them to do it.
[/quote]
No, the reps for GOONS were because the whole lot of you hit GOONS instead of MK and others on that side of the coalition. You dogpiled on GOONS ignoring their well known publicly announced policy of charging reps for alliances attacking them. Just because you ignore a consequence doesn't make it go away. Consequences will occur regardless if you think you should be exempt or not based solely upon your actions.

If you didn't want to pay reps, you didn't have to declare war on GOONS.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323369904' post='2869381']
You are patently wrong, and 5 minutes' research would do you well if you're going to make your decisions about what's right or wrong or who to associate with based on past actions.

MK demanded defensive reparations from NPO's supporters for themselves and their allies whose sum makes DT's reps positively negligible.[/quote]
With one exception we demanded tech deals, not straight tech.

[quote]MK itself charged Carpe Diem, an alliance comparable in size to DT, [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100267]18,000 in tech[/url]--twice that demanded of DT by CSN--plus $150,000,000, the cash equivalent of another 2,000 tech.[/quote]
Carpe Diem re-entered a war in which they'd already agreed to peace. Their own leaders admitted they expected stiff punishment.

[quote]MK charged TOOL [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100820]26,000 tech[/url].[/quote]
In the form of tech deals that were forgiven upon TOOL's dissolution. We never got a dime, nor did we ever expect to at the time of the agreement. The terms only existed to prevent the "BUT THEY GOT WHITE PEACE, WHY CAN'T WE" !@#$%*ing that had surfaced in some corners.

[quote]Doom House charged the remainder of us $2,809,000,000 in reps, including Olympus if there hadn't been a screw-up in the wording of the surrender document. That's a total of over 3 billion with a [size="4"]B[/size] in reps for daring to activate our defensive treaties and stand in their way. And it all depends on short-sighted, giggling schoolboys standing behind them to empower them to do it.[/quote]
Most of which came from Legion's share, calculated due to their total evasion of the war via peace mode.

Don't pile on GOONS next time.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372350' post='2869421']
Carpe Diem did not violate their surrender terms. It is the difference between what actually happened and the version of history that is written by the victors, and that is that. Whether or not TOOL disbanded has no bearing on the fact that you charged them the reps. If I run out on a bar tab, the bill does not cease to exist.
[/quote]
It does cease to exist if the bar owner tells you don't worry about it if you are leaving and never coming back. TOOL was going to disband, and the clause in the terms specifically stated that if they did follow through with disbandment they wouldn't have to pay anything.

This is more lenient than every other situation regarding disbanded alliances. We let them go, no debts, no anything. Stop trying to twist a kindness into something its not.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323372429' post='2869425']
No, the reps for GOONS were because the whole lot of you hit GOONS instead of MK and others on that side of the coalition. You dogpiled on GOONS ignoring their well known publicly announced policy of charging reps for alliances attacking them. Just because you ignore a consequence doesn't make it go away. Consequences will occur regardless if you think you should be exempt or not based solely upon your actions.[/quote]
You are giving two conflicting reason for the same action: (1) The reps were charged because we dogpiled GOONS, and (2) anyoen that attacks GOONS under any circumstance gets charged reps. You cannot imply that if GOONS had not been dogpiled then the reps would not have been charged AND claim that the reps were a foregone conclusion.
[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323372429' post='2869425']
If you didn't want to pay reps, you didn't have to declare war on GOONS.
[/quote]
CoJ held an ODOAP with 64Digits, 64Digits attacked GOONS. The decisions was not whether or not to attack GOONS, it was whether or not to activate our treaty.

You can blindly support GOONS demands of reps as long as you like, that's up to you, but don't bother me with flawed logic and circular arguments to justify it.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323372604' post='2869427']
It does cease to exist if the bar owner tells you don't worry about it if you are leaving and never coming back. TOOL was going to disband, and the clause in the terms specifically stated that if they did follow through with disbandment they wouldn't have to pay anything.

This is more lenient than every other situation regarding disbanded alliances. We let them go, no debts, no anything. Stop trying to twist a kindness into something its not.
[/quote]
HAHAHAHA You are full of !@#$, Caliph, and 2 years ago, I would've expected more from you. Magnamimous Doom House waves reps if you disband instead of paying them. Weep in joy for our mercy. Your kindness knows no bounds!

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372812' post='2869429']
You are giving two conflicting reason for the same action: (1) The reps were charged because we dogpiled GOONS, and (2) anyoen that attacks GOONS under any circumstance gets charged reps. You cannot imply that if GOONS had not been dogpiled then the reps would not have been charged AND claim that the reps were a foregone conclusion.

CoJ held an ODOAP with 64Digits, 64Digits attacked GOONS. The decisions was not whether or not to attack GOONS, it was whether or not to activate our treaty.

You can blindly support GOONS demands of reps as long as you like, that's up to you, but don't bother me with flawed logic and circular arguments to justify it.
[/quote]
There's nothing flawed about their logic. If they didn't want to pay reps they shouldn't have attacked us. It really is that simple.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372925' post='2869430']
HAHAHAHA You are full of !@#$, Caliph, and 2 years ago, I would've expected more from you. Magnamimous Doom House waves reps if you disband instead of paying them. Weep in joy for our mercy. Your kindness knows no bounds!
[/quote]
TOOL was going to disband before the war, the war happened and disbandment was postponed until after the war. We let them disband without forcing them to pay reps or be under any terms other than don't join the war. They were going to disband, we didn't force them to, and to help them make that choice for themselves we included the clause to let them disband in peace rather than us hunting them down to extort individual nations.

It was a kindness.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372812' post='2869429']
You are giving two conflicting reason for the same action: (1) The reps were charged because we dogpiled GOONS, and (2) anyoen that attacks GOONS under any circumstance gets charged reps. You cannot imply that if GOONS had not been dogpiled then the reps would not have been charged AND claim that the reps were a foregone conclusion.

CoJ held an ODOAP with 64Digits, 64Digits attacked GOONS. The decisions was not whether or not to attack GOONS, it was whether or not to activate our treaty.

You can blindly support GOONS demands of reps as long as you like, that's up to you, but don't bother me with flawed logic and circular arguments to justify it.
[/quote]


So you honored a treaty that was OPTIONAL and complain about the outcome?

Seriously? Are you even trying to be cute anymore or have you just tossed in the towel?

Stop, just stop and walk away from this because you have no leg to stand on.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1323370832' post='2869396']
I for one am enjoying throwing men & missiles at NPL whiners. Now just waiting for the inevitable dogpile counter.
[/quote]
Don't get too excited. NoR has't had a single counter despite hitting two SF alliances. Though if anyone is a magnet for counters, I suppose it's GOONS.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323373109' post='2869435']
TOOL was going to disband before the war, the war happened and disbandment was postponed until after the war. We let them disband without forcing them to pay reps or be under any terms other than don't join the war. They were going to disband, we didn't force them to, and to help them make that choice for themselves we included the clause to let them disband in peace rather than us hunting them down to extort individual nations.

It was a kindness.
[/quote]
Then it was a kindness for Electron Sponge to let \m/ either be a Polar techfarm or disband.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372812' post='2869429']
You are giving two conflicting reason for the same action: (1) The reps were charged because we dogpiled GOONS, and (2) anyoen that attacks GOONS under any circumstance gets charged reps. You cannot imply that if GOONS had not been dogpiled then the reps would not have been charged AND claim that the reps were a foregone conclusion.

CoJ held an ODOAP with 64Digits, 64Digits attacked GOONS. The decisions was not whether or not to attack GOONS, it was whether or not to activate our treaty.

You can blindly support GOONS demands of reps as long as you like, that's up to you, but don't bother me with flawed logic and circular arguments to justify it.
[/quote]
Fact: You declared war on GOONS.
Fact: Your treaty was optional. If you had activated it, it would entail you declaring war on GOONS.
Fact: It is public knowledge that attacking GOONS results in GOONS charging you reps.
Fact: You attacked GOONS anyway.

What is so hard about this?

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323373194' post='2869442']
Then it was a kindness for Electron Sponge to let \m/ either be a Polar techfarm or disband.
[/quote]

"My logic has been shown to be foolish so I shall retort with something off subject and declare a victory.*"



*and still pay reps

Edited December 8, 2011 by mrwuss

[Dr Beefstupid]

Schattenmann, you are so horrible at this it amazes me you are still trying.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323373194' post='2869442']
Then it was a kindness for Electron Sponge to let \m/ either be a Polar techfarm or disband.
[/quote]
Not so. \m/ was not going to disband prior to the war, events in the war caused the disbandment. TOOL had decided to disband before the war, and enterred the war knowing it was to disband after the war. We let them disband without holding their individual nations responsible or extorting them individually, and since the alliance TOOL was no longer around the reps were null and void.

2 completely different situations.

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323373194' post='2869442']
Then it was a kindness for Electron Sponge to let \m/ either be a Polar techfarm or disband.
[/quote]

\m/ wasn't planning on disbanding, dummy.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1323373359' post='2869448']
Schattenmann, you are so horrible at this it amazes me you are still trying.
[/quote]
Really, is that why 7 of you swarmed to combat me?

Edited December 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323373240' post='2869444']
Fact: You declared war on GOONS.
Fact: Your treaty was optional. If you had activated it, it would entail you declaring war on GOONS.
Fact: It is public knowledge that attacking GOONS results in GOONS charging you reps.
Fact: You attacked GOONS anyway.

What is so hard about this?
[/quote]
You'd think he'd just come out and say "it's immoral", because that's basically all his argument amounts to.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1323373527' post='2869452']
You'd think he'd just come out and say "it's immoral", because that's basically all his argument amounts to.
[/quote]
His argument is basically "I don't like it".

He can not like it all he wants, it doesn't change the way it is. Realizing theres some things you can't change is a mark of maturity.

[potato]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323372350' post='2869421']
Carpe Diem did not violate their surrender terms. It is the difference between what actually happened and the version of history that is written by the victors, and that is that. Whether or not TOOL disbanded has no bearing on the fact that you charged them the reps. If I run out on a bar tab, the bill does not cease to exist.
[/quote]

Yes, they did. Most of CD would tell you that these days.
TOOL was going to disband pre-war. We knew that, they knew that. They basically told us "We're going to disband. Give us a number, we're out anyways". Anyone anywhere near the peace negociations knew that. We give them tech deals, knowing full well we wouldn't get a dime. We didn't expect anything. But giving them white peace and not the others would have made the whole process even worse.

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323373496' post='2869451']
Really, is that why 7 of you swarmed to combat me?
[/quote]

"Everyone in the room disagrees with me" == "It takes everyone in the room just to put up a fight" apparently.

Your delusions are so grandiose it's fascinating.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Dr Beefstupid

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1323373901' post='2869457']
"Everyone in the room disagrees with me" == "It takes everyone in the room just to put up a fight" apparently.

Your delusions are so grandiose it's fascinating.
[/quote]

Atlas shrugged (and no one was around to care).

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1323319338' post='2868286']In light of recent holy revelations and a sacrilegious cockblock by an alliance of napoleonic ingrates, Mushqaeda hereby declares war on :insert alliance here:. We'll revisit this chapter at a later date. I swear upon Allarchon high that we shall revisit this chapter at a later date.[/quote]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1323319350' post='2868289']For the time being they can consider themselves lucky to escape the wrath of the jihadists, but this act will not be overlooked. Those responsible for this transfer of destruction will be eliminated at a further point in time.[/quote]

[quote name='ak47don' timestamp='1323319386' post='2868294']To a certain green alliance, your time will come and when we’re at your doorstep you will have nowhere to run for the Jihad against you will be so great that it covers the circumference of heaven. You will soon know the wrath of Allarchon and you will weep for his mercy in the end.[/quote]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1323371408' post='2869404']
Please, tell me more.
[/quote]

Honesty makes things easier.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1323373713' post='2869454']
His argument is basically "I don't like it".

He can not like it all he wants, it doesn't change the way it is. Realizing theres some things you can't change is a mark of maturity.
[/quote]
You are speaking to a man who knows what it is to change that which cannot be changed.