A Statement from Doomhouse

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300595067' post='2670797']
Just because NPO did something in the past doesn't make it an "NPO" tactic! It's annoying that every discussion has to revolve around what NPO did or didn't do in the past and whether we are "copying" it or not. We follow our own playbook, not NPO's or anyone else's. Morality does not revolve around whether NPO used to do it or not. Debate our actions on their merits not on how they might compare to what NPO did in the past.
[/quote]
I agree. Now perhaps posters from your side can stop trying to justify DH's actions with reference to NPO's past actions.

[Banksy]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594297' post='2670782']
You're right BEazy it is a weak CB, does it not work both ways? I mean if the other alliances represented here think MK will at some point in the future attack one of us,
is it not ok for us to gang up and pre-empt them on a Paranoia CB aswell? or is it just an MK only thing? As for IRON, well them treaties with Argent and R&R is why it's ok for them to hide behind the hippie shield. by allowing IRON to do exactly what they attacked NPO for doing, they have set a nice double standard.
[/quote]
we premptively attacked the npo as they were involved in military planning and were planning on entering. why would we attack iron when they made it perfectly clear to everyone they weren't entering the war? had iron been directing a coalition then it would be a different story. we don't have a grudge with iron.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1300595329' post='2670800']
we premptively attacked the npo as they were involved in military planning and were planning on entering.
[/quote]
With respect, you had no clear evidence that this was the case. I don't even think Roq has attempted to claim that you did.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300595067' post='2670797']
Just because NPO did something in the past doesn't make it an "NPO" tactic! It's annoying that every discussion has to revolve around what NPO did or didn't do in the past and whether we are "copying" it or not. We follow our own playbook, not NPO's or anyone else's. Morality does not revolve around whether NPO used to do it or not. Debate our actions on their merits not on how they compare to what NPO did in the past or not.
[/quote]

Except when those same plays are brought out as crimes against NPO at every turn by your side. Thus, it is ya'll that continuously bring it up and force the rest of us to see how close or exact ya'lls actions mirror that of the crimes of NPO.

If morality does not revolve around what NPO does, why is it that so many reasons for this war revolve around thinks like that? For example, Sir Paul's tabloid or lack of diplomacy? Unfortunately for you, both of those were more than enough reason for NPO to attack others and are obviously good enough reasons for you. Again, if you don't want to be compared to NPO, then stop revolving your actions around NPO.

If ya'll had DoWed with the reason that NPO may attack you if you hit X alliances in the VE-Polar war and then peaced NPO out once the VE-Polar war ended, there would be no need to bring any comparisons with NPO up. Instead, you hit with the DoW you did and the other reasons that have been brought up and instead of peacing them out, you gave them terms solely meant to mirror an action NPO did in the past.

So, again, the fault lies with you guys. You don't want to be compared to NPO, stop doing crap that allows for an easy comparison such as the OP. That right as well as all the posts about vietFAN and justice and NPO deserving this, only shows that you want to be compared to NPO but obviously ya'll did not think it through entirely. You thought you would be praised and instead you are getting the same hate that NPO got. Go figure. You take plays from NPO and you get hated. You cannot act like NPO and think you will be praised for it. If you want to act like MK, then by all means act like MK. The MK I once admired prior to Karma would not have acted like this, or at least I thought you had more honor than that. Guess I was wrong.

Also, I am treating your actions like their your own as well. MK/DH did this, no one else did. I am comparing it to NPO to illustrate how bad I think it is. So the merits of this are tied to NPO in so much as using NPO's past actions allows me to judge what MK may be capable of in the future. This is how the world works. If NPO had not done those actions, it would be actually more threatening, since the unknown tends to be more threatening. But it appears MK is content thus far to stick with what either NPO did in the past or TOP/Co did in the past. So, either MK lacks an original thought or they just have not come up with anything as good as what was already done, yet.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Dochartaigh

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1300594928' post='2670792']
You are not even close to FAN, hell the nations you had that fought were learning to fight in the first round. Please don't tell me you are comparing yourselves to the FAN of old, cause honestly, your top nations that did fight, well they fought like a bunch of old men on crack.
[/quote]
no FAN is a different alliance, the situation is the same though.
3 years ago we had NPO and Hegemony gracing these boards calling FAN cowards for
not fighting, MK defending the peacemode strategy. than employing
the EXACT SAME strategy in Karma, now we got MK and minions calling
NPO cowards for doing what FAN did and old heg defending NPO's strategy.
no alliance can come close to the FAN military, none, not even DoomHouse.
I fought 6 MK nations that went inactive. Just took their beating.
I attacked MK applicant nations (a couple of them) MK didn't blitz me.
I even had a couple TOP types (Lower tier variety) that didn't even check their nations. the amateurishness goes both ways here.
You're right no alliance is in the same bracket as FAN militarily.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300595055' post='2670796']
OR you can win by resisting conquest, not surrendering and surviving while your attacker
is getting destroyed by a coalition. FAN won by surviving, outlasting NPO.
even if we brought everyone out, fought a full on Brawl, retreated to hippie and fought a 2 year guerilla war, you guys meet NPO's fate, we never surrender, you guys are forced to white peace us, we win by surviving and not surrendering. aka pyhrric victory, the war with FAN was so costly to NPO that in the end NPO got defeated. the PR fallout from that war still haunts NPO. I see MK and pals making the exact same mistakes NPO did.
you may be winning this war militarily but your CB is a PR disaster.
Your actions in the post war (Which you've outlined your plans in the OP) and the fact that any alliance you view as a security threat is subject to getting attacked equates to Iron fisted rule. that will also hurt you in the long run.

When you face your Karma, which will happen, people won't have to tow the party line anymore and NPO will be yesterday's news. Think about that for awhile.
[/quote]
FAN was a sideshow in the run-up to Karma, I would argue that FAN waiting for NPO to be taken out by someone else was a Pyhrric victory, though I'm not sure that it was the worst choice for them given that they didn't know what their terms would be if they came out. FAN outlasted NPO but it didn't beat them, and if they had had been able to get a reasonable peace early on in VietFAN, they most likely would have been better off long term.

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1300595329' post='2670800']
we premptively attacked the npo as they were involved in military planning and were planning on entering. why would we attack iron when they made it perfectly clear to everyone they weren't entering the war? had iron been directing a coalition then it would be a different story. we don't have a grudge with iron.
[/quote]
Here's the deal Bansky, I never meant to disrespect you or your alliance/allies.
You guys attacked based on IRC logs, logs which could have been faked to get NPO hit.
you had no hard evidence that NPO was going to enter. none. other than a few lines of IRC logs. If somebody hands you logs, send your people out and gather the intel.
or wait for NPO to actually post a DoW, than blitz them.

[Banksy]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300595558' post='2670806']
I fought 6 MK nations that went inactive. Just took their beating.
I attacked MK applicant nations (a couple of them) MK didn't blitz me.
I even had a couple TOP types (Lower tier variety) that didn't even check their nations. the amateurishness goes both ways here.
[/quote]
lol, at your ns, you would have been attacking ghosts.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Banksy

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300595665' post='2670808']
FAN was a sideshow in the run-up to Karma, I would argue that FAN waiting for NPO to be taken out by someone else was a Pyhrric victory, though I'm not sure that it was the worst choice for them given that they didn't know what their terms would be if they came out. FAN outlasted NPO but it didn't beat them, and if they had had been able to get a reasonable peace early on in VietFAN, they most likely would have been better off long term.
[/quote]
Thank you for saying the short version of what I was trying to say Azaghul.
See even though FAN was insignificant militarily in NPO's defeat.
the PR damage destroyed NPO's political capitol post war. NPO never recovered.
now the same dilemma faces MK. when MK faces it's Karma, do you want the sum total of the damage done by your actions now to make it impossible for you to ever build a coalition ever again? or do you guys want to be loved enough that your allies now will be your allies even after a decisive defeat? this war begins your era, please plan your actions wisely.

[Banksy]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300595810' post='2670809']
Here's the deal Bansky, I never meant to disrespect you or your alliance/allies.
You guys attacked based on IRC logs, logs which could have been faked to get NPO hit.
you had no hard evidence that NPO was going to enter. none. other than a few lines of IRC logs. If somebody hands you logs, send your people out and gather the intel.
or wait for NPO to actually post a DoW, than blitz them.
[/quote]
yeah but, coupled with the fact we didn't like them very much, we didn't.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wCfs6.gif[/IMG]

not too sure what that has to do with iron though. you keep on avoiding everything.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Banksy

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1300595955' post='2670812']
lol, at your ns, you would have been attacking ghosts.
[/quote]
I'm this NS because I fought for weeks, rerolled 3 times.
I'm in hippie [ooc]because of health issues as I stated earlier[/ooc] otherwise I'd be in the trenches
[ooc]when it comes to CN vs my RL health RL wins every time[/ooc]

[Banksy]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300596243' post='2670820']
I'm this NS because I fought for weeks, rerolled 3 times.
I'm in hippie [ooc]because of health issues as I stated earlier[/ooc] otherwise I'd be in the trenches
[ooc]when it comes to CN vs my RL health RL wins every time[/ooc]
[/quote]
yeah, great.

at your ns [ooc: and at your reroll's ns], you would have been attacking ghosts.

i didn't even bring up peace mode.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Banksy

[Believland]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594297' post='2670782']
You're right BEazy it is a weak CB, does it not work both ways? I mean if the other alliances represented here think MK will at some point in the future attack one of us,
is it not ok for us to gang up and pre-empt them on a Paranoia CB aswell? or is it just an MK only thing? As for IRON, well them treaties with Argent and R&R is why it's ok for them to hide behind the hippie shield. by allowing IRON to do exactly what they attacked NPO for doing, they have set a nice double standard.
[/quote]

How do you know I'm BEazy? D:

It works both ways. However, I wouldn't suggest it but, if you want to then go attack them for it. Again, I wouldn't suggest it.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Avenger218 is now my favorite OWF poster. NADC was hiding a diamond from us all.

[blueski]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300595558' post='2670806']
no FAN is a different alliance, the situation is the same though.
3 years ago we had NPO and Hegemony gracing these boards calling FAN cowards for
not fighting, MK defending the peacemode strategy. than employing
the EXACT SAME strategy in Karma, now we got MK and minions calling
NPO cowards for doing what FAN did and old heg defending NPO's strategy.
no alliance can come close to the FAN military, none, not even DoomHouse.
I fought 6 MK nations that went inactive. Just took their beating.
I attacked MK applicant nations (a couple of them) MK didn't blitz me.
I even had a couple TOP types (Lower tier variety) that didn't even check their nations. the amateurishness goes both ways here.
You're right no alliance is in the same bracket as FAN militarily.
[/quote]
MK hid most their nations in PM during Karma?

Its a general rule that when you're that tiny nearly every opponent you have will roll over and die. They're that small for a reason, and the few who know how to fight and lost enough NS to get down there are the exception.

Bragging about beating up 1,000 NS nations is like showing off your ability to kick the crap out of a toddler.

[Believland]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1300596582' post='2670824']
Avenger218 is now my favorite OWF poster. NADC was hiding a diamond from us all.
[/quote]

Hey, baby. I've missed you a lot. I feel that NADC has quality coming out of their wahzoos in all honesty.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300595558' post='2670806']
no FAN is a different alliance, the situation is the same though.
3 years ago we had NPO and Hegemony gracing these boards calling FAN cowards for
not fighting, MK defending the peacemode strategy. than employing
the EXACT SAME strategy in Karma, now we got MK and minions calling
NPO cowards for doing what FAN did and old heg defending NPO's strategy.
no alliance can come close to the FAN military, none, not even DoomHouse.
I fought 6 MK nations that went inactive. Just took their beating.
I attacked MK applicant nations (a couple of them) MK didn't blitz me.
I even had a couple TOP types (Lower tier variety) that didn't even check their nations. the amateurishness goes both ways here.
You're right no alliance is in the same bracket as FAN militarily.
[/quote]


Since your nation is only 17 days old I'm going to assume those lower tier variety that didn't check their nations either bill locked you, or made your nation to where it was better to re roll. I'll assume the ones you did hit were one of our ghosts. Honestly at the beginning of this war I really liked some of the guys that we were fighting from NADC. Then guys like you come and ruin the image.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300595550' post='2670805']
Except when those same plays are brought out as crimes against NPO at every turn by your side. Thus, it is ya'll that continuously bring it up and force the rest of us to see how close or exact ya'lls actions mirror that of the crimes of NPO.[/quote]
We bring it up a lot less often than people like you do.

[quote]If morality does not revolve around what NPO does, why is it that so many reasons for this war revolve around thinks like that? For example, Sir Paul's tabloid or lack of diplomacy? Unfortunately for you, both of those were more than enough reason for NPO to attack others and are obviously good enough reasons for you. Again, if you don't want to be compared to NPO, then stop revolving your actions around NPO. [/quote]
My point was that something isn't moral or immoral because NPO did or didn't do it.

[quote]If ya'll had DoWed with the reason that NPO may attack you if you hit X alliances in the VE-Polar war and then peaced NPO out once the VE-Polar war ended, there would be no need to bring any comparisons with NPO up. Instead, you hit with the DoW you did and the other reasons that have been brought up and instead of peacing them out, you gave them terms solely meant to mirror an action NPO did in the past. [/quote]
No we gave them terms designed to get them out of peace mode so that those upper tier peace mode nations actually have to fight. It was not "meant to mirror an action NPO did in the past", that didn't factor into the decision at all.

If we were really trying to "mirror" NPO as you say the terms at the end of it would be open ended like NPO would do, we wouldn't be telling them that will get white peace at the end of it.

[quote]So, again, the fault lies with you guys. You don't want to be compared to NPO, stop doing crap that allows for an easy comparison such as the OP. That right as well as all the posts about vietFAN and justice and NPO deserving this, only shows that you want to be compared to NPO but obviously ya'll did not think it through entirely. You thought you would be praised and instead you are getting the same hate that NPO got. Go figure. You take plays from NPO and you get hated. You cannot act like NPO and think you will be praised for it. If you want to act like MK, then by all means act like MK. The MK I once admired prior to Karma would not have acted like this, or at least I thought you had more honor than that. Guess I was wrong.[/quote]
We are acting like MK, it's you who insists on looking at in light of what NPO used to do.

How many MK posts referenced vietFAN in this thread? I see only one reference from an MK poster in the first two pages to NPO threatening people who used peace mode in the past.

The MK prior to Karma would never have let an enemy get away with the avoid fighting by throwing everyone into peace mode strategy. No reasonable alliance would have or will now.

[quote]Also, I am treating your actions like their your own as well. MK/DH did this, no one else did. I am comparing it to NPO to illustrate how bad I think it is. So the merits of this are tied to NPO in so much as using NPO's past actions allows me to judge what MK may be capable of in the future. This is how the world works. If NPO had not done those actions, it would be actually more threatening, since the unknown tends to be more threatening. But it appears MK is content thus far to stick with what either NPO did in the past or TOP/Co did in the past. So, either MK lacks an original thought or they just have not come up with anything as good as what was already done, yet.
[/quote]
This world is old so there aren't a lot of things to do that no one has ever done before. That doesn't mean that we are just "copying" anyone. And we certainly do things with our own flavor. For example in this instance we are insisting on war and fighting while others in the past might have accepted reps or other terms instead. Has any other major alliance ever done a treaty reset like we did? The frequency of white peace is also a trademark of the "new hegemony" in general. Our propaganda is unique. I think your insistence on looking on our actions in light of what NPO used to do just shows that you are stuck on Karma.

[Geoffron X]

Wait, you're bringing out the treaty reset as your major uniqueness? Where you resigned with most of your allies, except for those in Polar's sphere of influence, so that all it was was an attempt to hide that fact?

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1300576753' post='2670472']
[b]No, that isn't what he is saying at all. Just because you and yours felt it was completely acceptable to roll Neutral alliances does not mean everyone else does. Do you understand? Can you stop with these terrible slippery slope arguments and stop putting words in our mouths and argue your case based on logic/reason/fact for just once in your miserable existence.[/b]
[/quote]

HAHAHAAHA I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not, if not, see this thread.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=14358

You and yours indeed eh TOP, VE, Umbrella etc??

[Charles Stuart]

GOONS needs to keep sending the aid to to their new recruits, we really do enjoy looting millions from nations with no military improvements.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Charles Stuart

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1300598406' post='2670851']
HAHAHAAHA I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not, if not, see this thread.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=14358

You and yours indeed eh TOP, VE, Umbrella etc??
[/quote]

Guess what, Ochocinco is gone, and Roq, myself, and the majority of the Umbrellian government weren't in Umbrella when that happened, but if you really want to bring that up - by all means.

[Judge X]

Is this still going? Let them drown in their own tears. We'll see what New Years brings. Until then, I have finally been attacked by an Umbrella baby. Ahhh, the Joys of raping and pillaging. I wonder if this is going to be his first nuke? yeah, it is.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1300598082' post='2670846']
Wait, you're bringing out the treaty reset as your major uniqueness? Where you resigned with most of your allies, except for those in Polar's sphere of influence, so that all it was was an attempt to hide that fact?
[/quote]
I didn't say it was our "major" one, but one of several. And we ended up not resigning with a lot less than just our former treaties minus the polar sphere, we also never rejoined C&G or resigned with FoB, GR, Ronin, RoK, and GOD, and probably a couple of others that I'm forgetting. We only ended up resigning with 6 alliances.

[Judge X]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1300598806' post='2670856']
Guess what, Ochocinco is gone, and Roq, myself, and the majority of the Umbrellian government weren't in Umbrella when that happened, but if you really want to bring that up - by all means.
[/quote]
um, isn't that your whole reason for attacking NPO? Did you really just shoot holes in your own CB? I mean come on, you guys changed but nobody else did?

Edited March 20, 2011 by Judge X