A Statement from Doomhouse

[mattski133]

[quote name='JustIncredible' timestamp='1301510352' post='2680779']
I am not saying DH orchestrated this whole war, but they could have easily prevented this ongoing front. I am unaligned and am not now or have ever been on either side of this conflict. I am just trying to understand how DH can claim any part of this war as justified when you're doing the same EXACT thing Pacifica did.

What is the difference in the New Pacific Order using curb stomps to remain in power and DH using curb stomps to remain in power? It is quite clear that you believe if NPO returns to power then they would come after you again. It is also clear if you remain in power you're going to continuously beat them down to stop them from ever getting that chance again. What makes your cause better?

(PS: Don't get any ideas, I'm protected )[/quote]

Well, Doomhouse was going to war one way or another, because iFOK amongst others was taking a serious shelling and we were definately needed there. However, doing so would have left the target-making to Legion and TPF, and certainly NPO at that point. Back when this first started, before Doomhouse moved, Legion was constantly prodded for an answer as to why they were not helping their allies under attack and no response was given.

The difference is that NPO hit anything that moved from the enemy, their allies, or even neutrals, to remain in power. I think you'll find Doomhouse to be perfectly fine with leaving neutrals and their allies alone. But since NPO displayed a good deal of animosity towards DH and no stance on the current conflict was given, they find themselves stuck in war.

[quote]Sounds like paranoia to me

and if not, if it was strategy only used to stop them from bashing you in if you supported your friends in PB, then why not just give them peace since that front if over? Because you just don't want to?
[/quote]

I believe peace was offered? They just haven't accepted the terms.

[JustIncredible]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1301512408' post='2680794']
I believe peace was offered? They just haven't accepted the terms.
[/quote]

As for the rest of your post, I mentioned, I'm out of the loop so it was just my opinion.

As for this particular quote, why should NPO have to pay reps, eternal war, fight you for 30 days or any other terms other than white peace, when they did not in fact first strike and even IF they were to come into the war would only have done so through treaty obligation which are (for the most part) widely given white peace when it comes to end.

If DH would've entered to assist PB and (lets say the war turned and the Polar front had a chance) would you have expected anything more than white peace since you only would've be in due to obligations.

Edited March 30, 2011 by JustIncredible

[mattski133]

[quote name='JustIncredible' timestamp='1301512881' post='2680800']
As for the rest of your post, I mentioned, I'm out of the loop so it was just my opinion.

As for this particular quote, why should NPO have to pay reps, eternal war, fight you for 30 days or any other terms other than white peace, when they did not in fact first strike and even IF they were to come into the war would only have done so through treaty obligation which are (for the most part) widely given white peace when it comes to end.

If DH would've entered to assist PB and (lets say the war turned and the Polar front had a chance) would you have expected anything more than white peace since you only would've be in due to obligations.
[/quote]

As it gets deeper into the situation I rely more on speculation since I'm a 'grunt' member of GOONS, but I can try to speculate a little (the more speculation there is, the more HeroofTime and the rebel posts there are to challenge them, i find, and no one wants that).

NPO has been asked to fight, because they put most of their top tier into peace a few hours before Doomhouse was slated to issue orders to it's nations. Personally, I didn't know our target until three hours before the update of attack, being junior military command, I can confidently say NPO was putting their nations into peace mode at about the same time Doomhouse was assigning targets. (in my mind, erasing the question of whether or not they knew about the attack, and also raising the question of, how did they know exactly... )

So, most of them got out of this war. To get peace they need to fight for a month, three cycles, what have you. I don't think anyone in Doomhouse wants to levy reps, just a solid fight.

If NpO/NPO had won? I have no idea what the repercussions of that would be except to examine history. Which brings us back to the 'why' of this front of the war in the first place.

[JustIncredible]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1301514181' post='2680815']
As it gets deeper into the situation I rely more on speculation since I'm a 'grunt' member of GOONS, but I can try to speculate a little (the more speculation there is, the more HeroofTime and the rebel posts there are to challenge them, i find, and no one wants that).

[b]NPO has been asked to fight, because they put most of their top tier into peace a few hours before Doomhouse was slated to issue orders to it's nations[/b]. Personally, I didn't know our target until three hours before the update of attack, being junior military command, I can confidently say NPO was putting their nations into peace mode at about the same time Doomhouse was assigning targets. (in my mind, erasing the question of whether or not they knew about the attack, and also raising the question of, how did they know exactly... )

So, most of them got out of this war. To get peace they need to fight for a month, three cycles, what have you. I don't think anyone in Doomhouse wants to levy reps, just a solid fight.

If NpO/NPO had won? I have no idea what the repercussions of that would be except to examine history. Which brings us back to the 'why' of this front of the war in the first place.
[/quote]

Good points, but yet from where I sit my question really wasn't answered. Maybe I wasn't clear, idk, but in an attempt to make this as clear as possible for you, and save us a little time trying to understand each other.. (this is for you, your government, your allies or anyone else who wants to answer.)

Why should NPO fight or not get peace at all?

IF they were planning to be involved in this war is would be in defense of an ally, whether now or later, whether just jumping right in or strategically planning it would've been through treaty obligations.. So why punish them? Why should they be held into war since the front that you were trying to stop them from gaining an upper hand on is over?

[mattski133]

[quote name='JustIncredible' timestamp='1301514904' post='2680825']
Good points, but yet from where I sit my question really wasn't answered. Maybe I wasn't clear, idk, but in an attempt to make this as clear as possible for you, and save us a little time trying to understand each other.. (this is for you, your government, your allies or anyone else who wants to answer.)

Why should NPO fight or not get peace at all?

IF they were planning to be involved in this war is would be in defense of an ally, whether now or later, whether just jumping right in or strategically planning it would've been through treaty obligations.. So why punish them? Why should they be held into war since the front that you were trying to stop them from gaining an upper hand on is over?
[/quote]

it could be that they are a threat, still, with their upper tiers in fine shape and their smaller tiers confident that they'll recover quickly. or maybe that they've used this same argument in the past with their enemies such as FAN. but really it boils down to them avoiding the fight. we're ready to get it on, why aren't they? the only logical conclusion to them not wanting to fight is that they hope to fight some other day when victory is assured.

it's a unique war so it's hard to wrap your head around, but if you understand it is simply about fighting (everything must die), i think the confusion about why they should fight or not get peace at all goes away.

i think i was reading a post by Vlad yesterday citing that this place will go into utter stagnation under the ascension of DH-PB-C&G and friends, but if it is accepted that war can be fun, and not just a tool to eradicate all opposition as it was in the past, this place might become habitable again (unlike the Pax Pacifica).

i mean...we just accepted rebel virginia and about 1/3 of my warchest pre-war as peace terms to an alliance that was part of a coalition that absolutely ravaged GOONS. and i think it's partially because NSO shares the mindset of why we're all here.

my advice is to erase the comparisons between DH and NPO and see what happens if everyone loosens up a bit and gives up their visions of world domination.

or maybe im full crap i dont know.

[JustIncredible]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1301515874' post='2680836']
it could be that they are a threat, still, with their upper tiers in fine shape and their smaller tiers confident that they'll recover quickly. or maybe that they've used this same argument in the past with their enemies such as FAN. but really it boils down to them avoiding the fight. we're ready to get it on, why aren't they? the only logical conclusion to them not wanting to fight is that they hope to fight some other day when victory is assured.

it's a unique war so it's hard to wrap your head around, but if you understand it is simply about fighting (everything must die), i think the confusion about why they should fight or not get peace at all goes away.

i think i was reading a post by Vlad yesterday citing that this place will go into utter stagnation under the ascension of DH-PB-C&G and friends, but if it is accepted that war can be fun, and not just a tool to eradicate all opposition as it was in the past, this place might become habitable again (unlike the Pax Pacifica).

i mean...we just accepted rebel virginia and about 1/3 of my warchest pre-war as peace terms to an alliance that was part of a coalition that absolutely ravaged GOONS. and i think it's partially because NSO shares the mindset of why we're all here.

my advice is to erase the comparisons between DH and NPO and see what happens if everyone loosens up a bit and gives up their visions of world domination.

[b]or maybe im full crap i dont know.[/b]
[/quote]

I like that excuse better XD

But anyways good argument man, it has been both fun and educational going back and forth. Like I said, I hold no ill will towards either alliance at this point, or anyone for that matter. When I came back, I came back with intentions on starting fresh with no past reputation following me around and I will be giving all alliances the same chance in my eyes. I will not judge them for their pasts, but yet only from what I see since reappearing as Masterpiece. Thanks again for the debate and remaining courteous as I asked a million questions I'm sure have already been asked

EDIT: TYPOS EVERYWHERE!

Edited March 30, 2011 by JustIncredible

[chefjoe]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1301515874' post='2680836']
it could be that they are a threat, still, with their upper tiers in fine shape and their smaller tiers confident that they'll recover quickly. or maybe that they've used this same argument in the past with their enemies such as FAN. but really it boils down to them avoiding the fight. [b] we're ready to get it on, why aren't they[/b]? the only logical conclusion to them not wanting to fight is that they hope to fight some other day when victory is assured.

it's a unique war so it's hard to wrap your head around, but if you understand it is simply about fighting (everything must die), i think the confusion about why they should fight or not get peace at all goes away.

i think i was reading a post by Vlad yesterday citing that this place will go into utter stagnation under the ascension of DH-PB-C&G and friends, but if it is accepted that war can be fun, and not just a tool to eradicate all opposition as it was in the past, this place might become habitable again (unlike the Pax Pacifica).

i mean...we just accepted rebel virginia and about 1/3 of my warchest pre-war as peace terms to an alliance that was part of a coalition that absolutely ravaged GOONS. and i think it's partially because NSO shares the mindset of why we're all here.

my advice is to erase the comparisons between DH and NPO and see what happens if everyone loosens up a bit and gives up their visions of world domination.

or maybe im full crap i dont know.
[/quote]

Like you would really jump headfirst and happily into a fight where you were sure to lose.

Im sure there arent too many in CN whom would flinch at fighting GOONS 1v1 if that was what is on the table, but it isnt.

So please do us all a favor and quit whining about someone not jumping into a fight they didnt want with a smile on their face just so you can kick their ass...

[Beefspari]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1301518796' post='2680860']
Like you would really jump headfirst and happily into a fight where you were sure to lose.
[/quote]
If the alternative was sitting in peace mode forever while a chunk of my alliance was destroyed unsupported? You bet I would.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL2.jpg[/img]

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1301500403' post='2680677']
Maybe we could start an NSO foreign legion program within GOONs.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerishehL1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I think GOONS should do this except make it available for anyone who wants to join in.

[Raider]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1301518796' post='2680860']
Like you would really jump headfirst and happily into a fight where you were sure to lose.
[/quote]
I've already done this...twice in fact. First leaving CPCN for GATO during the GATO-1V War and then leaving GATO to fight with Vox Populi during the noCB War.

So yeah.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1301521816' post='2680889']
I've already done this...twice in fact. First leaving CPCN for GATO during the GATO-1V War and then leaving GATO to fight with Vox Populi during the noCB War.

So yeah.
[/quote]
I believe he means an alliance as a whole, not a single nation. A long time ago I took a beating from an ex NPO when he went rogue on grey council. Fought with Toga and someone else from Valhalla(sorry bro I can't remember your name now) was an awesome battle, his nukes thrashed my nation hard. Was a good fight if your reading this Tsar, exactly the type I'd expect from a comrade o/

Edited March 30, 2011 by William Bonney

[Crymson]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1301503598' post='2680708']
Give him some credit Crymson, at least he is not using l33t sp33k.
[/quote]

You are as clumsy as you are stupid, admiral!

[the rebel]

[quote name='JustIncredible' timestamp='1301511783' post='2680791']
[b]I am in no way in support of Pacifica or her actions now or ever. NPO done a lot things that they should've infact been punished for, which is what Karma was stood for, but this war is nothing more than DH (especially Archon) doing the same thing he fought so hard for to stop 2 years ago.[/b] As I said, I am completely out of the loop these days, so maybe I am wrong but this just the opinion of a bystander.
[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head, power corrupts. Its a never ending cycle and human nature.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Feldheim C' timestamp='1301521191' post='2680882']
I think GOONS should do this except make it available for anyone who wants to join in.
[/quote]
Are you saying you would [i][b]want[/b][/i] someone in NPO or Legion or UPN to join us?
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriso_oL4.jpg[/img]

[Choson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301497153' post='2680654']
I was just doing what all the GOONS on here was doing asking for wars or is it only you lot can ask and not us? double standards much?

So now im classed as uneducated because i have no interest in a certain area, wow shut up pleb.
[/quote]
No, you're actually being classed as an immature brat. I'm able to, at the very least, give you the common courtesy of spelling your name right when talking to you or referring to you. Taking the whiny way out by saying [ooc]"How am I supposed to know about what North Koreans consider the Korean Peninsula; or what was a well established Korean dynasty?"[/ooc] just shows how immature you're willing to go to try and "prove" a point that doesn't exist.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1301528793' post='2680958']
No, you're actually being classed as an immature brat. I'm able to, at the very least, give you the common courtesy of spelling your name right when talking to you or referring to you. Taking the whiny way out by saying [ooc]"How am I supposed to know about what North Koreans consider the Korean Peninsula; or what was a well established Korean dynasty?"[/ooc] just shows how immature you're willing to go to try and "prove" a point that doesn't exist.
[/quote]

Please the amount of crap over the months ive received from you, means you dont deserve any courtesy from me. Immature? really if i was i would be in your alliance, which is full of immature asshats and thats a fact to anyone that visits your boards.

Do yourself a favour mate and stop talking crap.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1301500103' post='2680672']
Your government members are different but your actions are the same. And we've already discussed this CB thing to death. It's not just about "paranoia" and the like. It's also because NPO would've entered at some point anyway, so we beat them to the punch. Regardless, none of that has even a little bit of connection to "ignoring a person's arguments to just insult them."
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

If actions are what you wish to state constitutes an alliance being the same as before, then GOONS 2.0 is the same as GOONS 1.0 due to actions being the same. GOONS 2.0 has allied to MK (as GOONS 1.0 did) as well as Umbrella (considering GOONS/Genmay treaty). GOONS still acts arrogant as before. GOONS still has the EoG list as before. GOONS still techraids as before. GOONS still aggressively attacks other alliances as before. I am sure I can find more but frankly, I think I have proven my point.

If actions are all it takes then GOONS 2.0 is the same exact GOONS as GOONS 1.0 except in name. Hell iirc Sardonic and Lamuella were both gov in the old GOONS as well (at least i know Sardonic was).

[Beefspari]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301529640' post='2680965']
Please the amount of crap over the months ive received from you, means you dont deserve any courtesy from me. Immature? really if i was i would be in your alliance, which is full of immature asshats and thats a fact to anyone that visits your boards.

Do yourself a favour mate and stop talking crap.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/leomad2.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Trying to justify your own immaturity based on the people you're talking to being immature is known as hypocrisy. If you really cared, you'd try to set an example or be the bigger man by being mature, not responding with "No, you're a stupid head. So I'm being a stupid head because you're a stupid head."
[right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisR6.jpg[/img][/right]

[Achilles]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1301494291' post='2680637']
I don't think that was sarcasm.
[/quote]


Telling NSO to use the Moldavi Doctrine to support one of the alliances they just got out of war with. I would hope that was sarcasm. If not, you guys should start nuking yourselves to make it easier on us.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1301531008' post='2680983']
Trying to justify your own immaturity based on the people you're talking to being immature is known as [b]hypocrisy[/b]. If you really cared, you'd try to set an example or be the bigger man by being mature, not responding with "No, you're a stupid head. So I'm being a stupid head because you're a stupid head."[/quote]

Where am i being false? I actually believe you GOONS are immature asshats which is true for most of you. Also not respecting someone enough to give them courtesy isnt being immature, so run along and stop lecturing me like an old woman.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301531909' post='2680999']
Where am i being false? I actually believe you GOONS are immature asshats which is true for most of you. Also not respecting someone enough to give them courtesy isnt being immature, so run along and stop lecturing me like an old woman.
[right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/leomad3.jpg[/img][/right]
[/quote]
Well, you can't win them all. Since you insist on namecalling, I'll take this one as a loss and let you have your way.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L2.jpg[/img]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1301530669' post='2680980']
If actions are what you wish to state constitutes an alliance being the same as before, then GOONS 2.0 is the same as GOONS 1.0 due to actions being the same. GOONS 2.0 has allied to MK (as GOONS 1.0 did) as well as Umbrella (considering GOONS/Genmay treaty). GOONS still acts arrogant as before. GOONS still has the EoG list as before. GOONS still techraids as before. GOONS still aggressively attacks other alliances as before. I am sure I can find more but frankly, I think I have proven my point.

If actions are all it takes then GOONS 2.0 is the same exact GOONS as GOONS 1.0 except in name. Hell iirc Sardonic and Lamuella were both gov in the old GOONS as well (at least i know Sardonic was).
[/quote]
Ah yes, I love the smell of a false syllogism in the morning. Are all alliances who tech raid the same as old GOONS? Are all alliances with ZI lists the same as old GOONS? Are all alliances allied to MK the same as the old GOONS? Are all arrogant alliances the same as the old GOONS? Are all alliances that aggressivley attack the same as the old GOONS? No. Not even close. You have not made your point, you have just used several attributes, none of which are unique to goonkind. If you want to prove we are the same alliance you're going to do far better than a few generic attributes that can be applied to scores of other alliances. I was in both, it's not the same thing, our methods are much more refined, our diplomacy far more potent. All you have are a few similarities, most of which can be applied to other alliances.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1301534774' post='2681044']
Ah yes, I love the smell of a false syllogism in the morning. Are all alliances who tech raid the same as old GOONS? Are all alliances with ZI lists the same as old GOONS? Are all alliances allied to MK the same as the old GOONS? Are all arrogant alliances the same as the old GOONS? Are all alliances that aggressivley attack the same as the old GOONS? No. Not even close. You have not made your point, you have just used several attributes, none of which are unique to goonkind. If you want to prove we are the same alliance you're going to do far better than a few generic attributes that can be applied to scores of other alliances. I was in both, it's not the same thing, our methods are much more refined, our diplomacy far more potent. All you have are a few similarities, most of which can be applied to other alliances.
[/quote]

That is the same as what you have on the NPO though. A few similarities which you are stretching to make a case. So, if it does not work for you, how can you state it works for NPO? I am not actually trying to prove you are as I don't think you are the same as GOONS 1.0. I am just trying to prove a point that given how old the NPO culture is, it is not something that is going to completely change overnight. This takes time and NPO has made several changes including in government and new members which have risen to ranks. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1301530669' post='2680980']
If actions are what you wish to state constitutes an alliance being the same as before, then GOONS 2.0 is the same as GOONS 1.0 due to actions being the same. GOONS 2.0 has allied to MK (as GOONS 1.0 did) as well as Umbrella (considering GOONS/Genmay treaty). GOONS still acts arrogant as before. GOONS still has the EoG list as before. GOONS still techraids as before. GOONS still aggressively attacks other alliances as before. I am sure I can find more but frankly, I think I have proven my point.

If actions are all it takes then GOONS 2.0 is the same exact GOONS as GOONS 1.0 except in name. Hell iirc Sardonic and Lamuella were both gov in the old GOONS as well (at least i know Sardonic was).
[/quote]

Quite frankly the new GOONS would get crucified if they tried to do stuff that the first GOONS did, because convention simply doesn't allow that sort of stuff these days, so the point is moot. I think whether GOONS 2.0 is the same as GOONS 1.0 is a stupid question anyway, because a) what's relevant is GOONS' current actions and b) even if GOONS 2.0 did stuff that GOONS 1.0 did, I really wouldn't give a damn. And before you try and catch me out, point a) does not apply to NPO, because they are not currently in a position of power, whereas GOONS are.

[Crymson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301531909' post='2680999']
Where am i being false? I actually believe you GOONS are immature asshats which is true for most of you. Also not respecting someone enough to give them courtesy isnt being immature, so run along and stop lecturing me like an old woman.
[/quote]

Fortunately for the world, what you think has no practical importance whatsoever.