A Statement from Doomhouse

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300477151' post='2669258']
So instead of the "obvious destruction" they instead choose long-term stagnation of nation growth and inability to import tech, or support their nations at war? NPO is looking at choosing between the options presented to them. It's my opinion that a month of war is a better option than peace mode that lasts for who knows how long. NPO has to choose at some point. If they're waiting for white peace to fall onto the table, they're grossly misinterpreting the situation.
[/quote]

This issue is trust here, why should they trust the side which attacked them with little or no CB.

Though, can't expect much from the Illiterate Coalition.

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1300474483' post='2669211']
I am sure I am not the only one to notice that you describe yourself as a soldier beneath your avatar. I find that quite humorous in light of the fact that you have yet to come out off peace mode. A barracks soldier. Must be nice. Your signature is funny as well for much the same reason. I suspect that the only thing you have killed while in hippy mode is time. Out of the sheer generosity and the pure kindness of my heart, I made you a brand new signature graphic which at least is honest.

From the above it is very apparent that, like Ivan Moldavi, your "blood still runs with the cold resolve of Order."
How many nukes have you eaten in this conflict?
How many comrades within the NPO have you rescued from bill lock?
How many of your comrades have been comforted knowing that you are in the trenches right beside them?
Are your minions comfortable with the fact that your current nation strength is higher than it was prior to this conflict?
Are the real NPO soldiers comfortable with your decision (and those of your elite peers) to never fight in this conflict?

Oh, you are a killer all right; a real soldier's soldier. I bet you look all pretty in your garrison uniform.
[/quote]

It is a pity people claiming that they value ideas like honor and integrity resort to slander in order to push their agenda. A soldier is bound to follow his orders and a man of honor should know that, but alas it seems that honor and integrity are just empty words when politics come into the equation. Jumping into the fray is the easiest decision, but following orders is what makes a soldier.

For the matter in hand I think that many Pacificans gave a clear answer to the proposition. I suppose it is time to bring in the rest of DH in order to try and further support your goal. After all the GOONS members flux is approaching saturation.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300477151' post='2669258']
So instead of the "obvious destruction" they instead choose long-term stagnation of nation growth and inability to import tech, or support their nations at war? NPO is looking at choosing between the options presented to them. It's my opinion that a month of war is a better option than peace mode that lasts for who knows how long. NPO has to choose at some point. If they're waiting for white peace to fall onto the table, they're grossly misinterpreting the situation.
[/quote]

yes, your opinion. NPO is choosing to see if DH truly wants to make this an eternal war, or if DH are actually as smart as they claim to be. Ya'll make this an eternal war because NPO refuses to allow their alliance to be destroyed, and you will continue to loose more and more support. Then come next war, ya'll may find your side devoid of other alliances as no one supports your crap.

if you turn this war eternal, you are grossly misinterpreting ya'lls skill at diplomacy.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300477447' post='2669262']
This issue is trust here, why should they trust the side which attacked them with little or no CB.

Though, can't expect much from the Illiterate Coalition.
[/quote]

Those who lose in war are at the mercy of the victor. There is no trust involved.

[Furril]

IF only one large alliance could step is as a mediator and keep both sides honest should either one break the deal.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300477447' post='2669262']
This issue is trust here, why should they trust the side which attacked them with little or no CB.

Though, can't expect much from the Illiterate Coalition.
[/quote]
You're a few dozen pages too late to try and bring up this "why should we trust you" excuse. It was already debated and dismissed.

To recap for you, what holds us to our word is what holds [i][b]anyone[/b][/i] to their word on [i][b]any[/b][/i] peace term. If we didn't do what we said we'd be subject to ridicule and most likely attack. Do you also show up in threads to ask what's going to hold everyone to their word that they won't re-enter on a front?

[Achilles]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1300477260' post='2669259']
There's this thing called the original post. Maybe you should read it before posting
[/quote]

I've read all through this thread. I also know that there's two sides to every story. I just fail to agree with one side. That's all. You're obviously as bias as I am. I was a member of NPO at the time of the KARMA war and quite some time before. I see that you haven't been around all that long. I feel like dues were paid then. You wouldn't know that, aside from the propaganda that you've been fed.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Achilles

[Kyaris]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300477626' post='2669266']
yes, your opinion. NPO is choosing to see if DH truly wants to make this an eternal war, or if DH are actually as smart as they claim to be. Ya'll make this an eternal war because NPO refuses to allow their alliance to be destroyed, and you will continue to loose more and more support. Then come next war, ya'll may find your side devoid of other alliances as no one supports your crap.

if you turn this war eternal, you are grossly misinterpreting ya'lls skill at diplomacy.
[/quote]

Their refusal to come to the bargaining table doesn't mean we are permanent warring them. If I'm not mistaken, it means that they are refusing to surrender, thus themselves being the people who are perpetuating eternal war.

Nothing that has happened obligates us to let NPO off the hook because people think it's unfair that we're winning.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Kyaris

[mhawk]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300476822' post='2669251']

Our cause is solid.
[/quote]
Your cause is little more than being a thug. Unless you can justify this in some coherent manner.

[Spaniard United]

Damnit it FailHouse!

You SOBs finally did it ...


You finally made me laugh

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300477626' post='2669266']
yes, your opinion. NPO is choosing to see if DH truly wants to make this an eternal war, or if DH are actually as smart as they claim to be. Ya'll make this an eternal war because NPO refuses to allow their alliance to be destroyed, and you will continue to loose more and more support. Then come next war, ya'll may find your side devoid of other alliances as no one supports your crap.

if you turn this war eternal, you are grossly misinterpreting ya'lls skill at diplomacy.
[/quote]
It would be eternal war if NPO were forced into that position by being given no options, or options that are completely unreasonable. If NPO is going to inflict more damage on themselves than DH would just to prove a point, I suppose that's their choice.

I doubt NPO will gain a bunch of sympathy just because they won't accept any terms short of white peace, and would rather rot away in peace mode rather than fight, just to try and paint themselves as victims. There's such a thing as self-inflicted eternal war.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300477349' post='2669261']
Nation strength, not numbers of nations. Nice try though.
[/quote]
Then that is a horrible way to try to analyze a situation. Obviously % of NS in PM will increase to near 100% as a losing war goes on. You could have large nation in PM and it account for the majority of your NS over time if you're in a losing war. Also the figure of NS is wrong.

Top 40 nations in MK. 1,861,355NS in PM

1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Considering that is just looking at the top 40 mk nations it would seem intuitively obviously far greater than the stated 18% is in PM across the entire alliance. I'd guess closer to 50%.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300477710' post='2669270']
To recap for you, what holds us to our word is what holds [i][b]anyone[/b][/i] to their word on [i][b]any[/b][/i] peace term. If we didn't do what we said we'd be subject to ridicule and most likely attack. Do you also show up in threads to ask what's going to hold everyone to their word that they won't re-enter on a front?
[/quote]

The problem here is you've pretty much shown you don't care about ridicule with the initial DoW and the verious callouts and those who signed not to re-enter would be hit by the same alliances they fought against and possibly more and clearly, that's going to stop them from breaking terms. Considering most of the NS is on your side, who's going to hold you to account if you don't hold up your end?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300477734' post='2669272']
Their refusal to come to the bargaining table doesn't mean we are permanent warring them. If I'm not mistaken, it means that they are refusing to surrender, thus themselves being the people who are perpetuating eternal war.

Nothing that has happened obligates us to let NPO off the hook because people think it's unfair that we're winning.
[/quote]

yes, yes it does. you are attempting to keep NPO either in a perma-war or utterly destroy them to a point where it will already take them a year or more to rebuild. your little "we aren't asking for reps" smokescreen is just that, a smokescreen.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300478204' post='2669278']
It would be eternal war if NPO were forced into that position by being given no options, or options that are completely unreasonable. If NPO is going to inflict more damage on themselves than DH would just to prove a point, I suppose that's their choice.

I doubt NPO will gain a bunch of sympathy just because they won't accept any terms short of white peace, and would rather rot away in peace mode rather than fight, just to try and paint themselves as victims. There's such a thing as self-inflicted eternal war.
[/quote]

saying that "come out of PM so we can utterly destroy your upper tier and force you to take a year or more to rebuild" is a !@#$@#$ option is ridiculous. and it appears you are wrong in how much sympathy NPO will gain. read the thread and look at some of the names and the AAs those names hold.

given the terms you offer, this is far and away a DH-inflicted eternal war. No alliance should have to be utterly decimated in order to end a war. No alliance.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300478246' post='2669279']
Then that is a horrible way to try to analyze a situation. Obviously % of NS in PM will increase to near 100% as a losing war goes on. You could have large nation in PM and it account for the majority of your NS over time if you're in a losing war. Also the figure of NS is wrong.

Top 40 nations in MK. 1,861,355NS in PM

1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Considering that is just looking at the top 40 mk nations it would seem intuitively obviously far greater than the stated 18% is in PM across the entire alliance. I'd guess closer to 50%.
[/quote]

Somehow you turned 18% into 50% with no math or appearances whatsoever. Just so you're aware, it's a stat we track. Last I checked it was ~30%. NPO's was 80%, Legion's is 99%, and GOONS less than 15%. That number only goes down as the war progresses if, as in your case, half of your largest nations are all in peace mode and have never left. Our alliances lose NS evenly across the board, and so the disparity of loss between large and small nations is equivalent, maintaining our ratio. GOONS nations in peace mode are usually only there for the five day minimum.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300476228' post='2669235']
your right. saying that the leader of an alliance somehow does not represent the alliance in all he does, but somehow Sir Paul, who was never Emperor, magically represents all of NPO when he writes an obvious tongue-n-cheek tabloid.....

yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense. hypocrite much? sorry if Sir Paul represents NPO; then Archon, no matter the title he uses, sure as hell represents MK.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I've never said Sir Paul represents all of NPO with his tabloid tribune. NPO protecting a pretender to our throne is obviously an infringement upon our sovereignty, though.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300471552' post='2669187']
I assure you that I've worked to ignore them, but their persistence renders my filter insufficient. Furthermore they're only the most recognizable posters of a wider standard. There have been countless posts in this thread of similar value, but from those who are less active.

Opposing arguments worth addressing are often drowned out in the sea of simple insults, willful ignorance, or blind paranoia. Early on in the thread there was a point where Moldavi asked a question and I failed to answer it for quite some time, not willfully, but because I never saw it until stumbling past his third or so "am I going to get an answer" post.

The world of our opposition is a vast ruin, and I'm not speaking of what's left after our bombs land.
[/quote]

You talk of NPO's inability to navigate politics and you can't even navigate your own thread? It's not even all that bad in here. I think you're just ignoring the things you don't want to hear and playing up the ramblings of a few known trouble makers. Stop overblowing this nonissue. It just makes you look bad.

[janax]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300478469' post='2669283']
yes, yes it does. you are attempting to keep NPO either in a perma-war or utterly destroy them to a point where it will already take them a year or more to rebuild. your little "we aren't asking for reps" smokescreen is just that, a smokescreen.



saying that "come out of PM so we can utterly destroy your upper tier and force you to take a year or more to rebuild" is a !@#$@#$ option is ridiculous. and it appears you are wrong in how much sympathy NPO will gain. read the thread and look at some of the names and the AAs those names hold.

given the terms you offer, this is far and away a DH-inflicted eternal war. No alliance should have to be utterly decimated in order to end a war. No alliance.
[/quote]

Oh no. Not a year to rebuild. How long do you think it will take many of the alliances that have been fighting for NPO or NpO to rebuild? Think that 3.1 million missing NS of STA's is just going to mysteriously re-appear? How about the millions RoK lost?

War damages things. It's part of the nature of war.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300478325' post='2669282']
The problem here is you've pretty much shown you don't care about ridicule with the initial DoW and the verious callouts and those who signed not to re-enter would be hit by the same alliances they fought against and possibly more and clearly, that's going to stop them from breaking terms. Considering most of the NS is on your side, who's going to hold you to account if you don't hold up your end?
[/quote]
No really, this discussion is about 30 pages too late. If you want to keep this up, go back in time please. Only the most paranoid of our detractors think we'd post "loljk" on the OWF and open ourselves up to being Karmaed.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300478546' post='2669285']
Somehow you turned 18% into 50% with no math or appearances whatsoever. Just so you're aware, it's a stat we track. Last I checked it was ~30%. NPO's was 80%, Legion's is 99%, and GOONS less than 15%. That number only goes down as the war progresses if, as in your case, half of your largest nations are all in peace mode and have never left. Our alliances lose NS evenly across the board, and so the disparity of loss between large and small nations is equivalent, maintaining our ratio. GOONS nations in peace mode are usually only there for the five day minimum.
[/quote]
First of all, it was the mk guy that stated 18%. - A figure you state is at least almost half of the true number you estimate. I'm saying that if 27% of the total MK ns is in pm in just the top 40 nations. I find it highly unlikely that your figure of 30% - 3% difference makes any sense. Saying that another 50 nations in PM only account for 3% of the total NS of MK is foolish.

Top 40 nations in MK. 1,861,355NS in PM

1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Either way the mk guy was clearly wrong, by your figures or mine. That was my point.

Edited March 18, 2011 by mhawk

[Spaniard United]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300478204' post='2669278']
It would be eternal war if NPO were forced into that position by being given no options, or options that are completely unreasonable. If NPO is going to inflict more damage on themselves than DH would just to prove a point, I suppose that's their choice.

I doubt NPO will gain a bunch of sympathy just because they won't accept any terms short of white peace, and would rather rot away in peace mode rather than fight, just to try and paint themselves as victims. There's such a thing as self-inflicted eternal war.
[/quote]
Wait I'm sorry ... what? In all of the posts by MK et al I've yet to see what we did wrong post-Karma aside from exist? We were attacked with no CB and no reason other than the fact that DH could get away with it. I fail to see how we would need to paint ourselves the victims when it's obvious to anyone who's not been brainwashed to see that this was is unjust and undeserved. To stand and say that we will not surrender, we will not bow down to the aggressors in this war is not self-inflicted eternal war, it's pride, it's honor, it's knowing that one day the world will see you for what you are and on that day we will be victorious.

TL;DR This option is completely unreasonable. The New Pacific Order is a sovereign alliance and I personally will not be dictated to by the likes of DH.

kthnxbai

[Gobb]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300478246' post='2669279']
1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Considering that is just looking at the top 40 mk nations it would seem intuitively obviously far greater than the stated 18% is in PM across the entire alliance. I'd guess closer to 50%.
[/quote]
Banksy's post was from over 12 hours ago, just so you know.

[mattski133]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300477447' post='2669262']
This issue is trust here, why should they trust the side which attacked them with little or no CB.

Though, can't expect much from the Illiterate Coalition.
[/quote]

CB was a term twisted by NPO to justify their wars against people who didn't deserve them. CB's often involved trivial matters that NPO was able to blow out of proportion as an excuse to run another alliance out of here. CB's eventually came to be some kind of spying accusation or violation of EZI, almost exclusively.

A Casus Belli is simply a justification of war. In this case, that NPO was as big a threat on the flanks of the war that they could easily join through Legion (who also remained out under much more conspicuous terms) as they were if they were actively involved in it. Doomhouse could enter the war against NpO to assist Pandora's Box, and it would leave it's flanks open to Legion and NPO, TPF, Invicta, etc.

Any sound military commander with an understanding of the history between these factions would consider that a valid CB and take the initiative to secure victory.

Point being, there's no rule that says anyone has to play by NPO's rules.

[Kerlan]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300473365' post='2669204']
Given your other ally was struck and you did nothing, I wouldn't use that line of reasoning.

Please hit "back" and try again.[/quote]
I'm paraphrasing, but it pretty much went like this:

Us: "Oh hey we see you're getting hit, we're coming to help!"
Them: "Thanks guys you're awesome but please stay out of this one."
Us: "Awwwwww."

So, when NPO was hit, we had our full forces ready to roll. The upper tiers went into PM to be ready for a later entry, while our lower tiers rolled right in in full defense of NPO. But, plans all changed when all of C&G declared on us. Had that not happened, most of The Legion probably would have exited PM long ago. So, poorly timed move on your part there.


Also: What LittleRena said.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1300453918' post='2669041']
Doitzel, IIRC, neither Archon nor MK had anything to with the terms given to NPO other than that Voice of Karma sig.
[/quote]

MK received quite a few of the reps that NPO sent out.