Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[Earogema]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295383802' post='2581947']
It doesn't really matter if that's entirely true, Polar still supported the spying.
[/quote]
That's silly, of course it would still matter. On the first, you manufactured a CB. Sardonic was complaining about manufactured CBs not too long ago, and it's pretty obvious what PB's (and really this entire world's) view is on manufactured CBs.

In addition, the lack of diplomacy attempted when only ONE member of Polar's government even knew about they spy would mean you were itching to go to war at all costs. The fact that you did not attempt to get this member removed and perhaps go through a round of wars (like NPO attempted to do to OV) shows that you wanted Polar dead.

You are attempting to eliminate threats slowly. It's WUT and Q all over again.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Earogema

[Vladimir]

Rarely have the defenders of a war looked so ridiculous. I don't even know why you're bothering with this farce, to be honest. Those who want the war for political reasons will support it regardless, and the CB chosen is so bad that it won't bring in any additional support (which is really the only reason for a public CB). The only thing that this accomplishes is that you lose your dignity in the process.

[Sulmar]

My favorite part is where VE keeps the spy in their alliance. I feel like that says all that needs to be said.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295342393' post='2580995']
Like I said, I was there. Were you?

<Random_Gone> [b]I am not going to waste my life speaking to you[/b] when it's clear you are not capable of understanding what a simple issue this is
<Impero[VE]> ah, theres that tone your so famous for
<Random_Gone> Only when dealing with people like you
<Impero[VE]> your right, it is simple, hence this being where we are
<Impero[VE]> now, if theres nothing else?
<Random_Gone> Enjoy your war. Congratulations on a successful setup, and I'll see you on the other side
<Impero[VE]> im sorry you feel that way
<Impero[VE]> have a great night

There you go; Random saying "Screw diplomacy, I'm not going to discuss anything with you."

efb by impero!!@
[/quote]

was that before or after Impero told Dajobo to sod off? i am guessing after given the timestamps from Impero's post a couple of posts above yours. So, Impero tells Dajobo to sod off and then, from what appears to be a middle of the conversation log dump, Random tells Impero to sod off later... yep, still looks like VE said sod off first which kind of makes diplomacy harder. and like i said, this looks like a middle of the conversation log dump, not a beginning of the conversation log dump which means there was most likely some sort of diplomacy attempted before hand which from Random's tone, it appears Impero was basically continuing his sod off style with Random.

so, spin it like you will, anyone with any sort of intelligence can see right through that.

[SirBombAlot]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1295372980' post='2581592']
I love war.
What I like even better is an even war.[/quote]

OT: DRAGON membership = 30ish.

Alchemy membership = 30ish.

Seems pretty even to me. Bring it. /OT

Any CB is a good CB. Happy hunting to all involved parties.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1295383446' post='2581940']
Damn, I wish I could find the logs wherein Lennox asks me if he should set up Polaris to get them rolled. Of course now I can't find them. That said, I can't believe [i]Lennox[/i] of all people is starting a global war. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
[/quote]

yes, this is the guy of NAMBLA fame we're talking about here. By the way, I called it. Lennox would be back, and it seems he has in a big way .


Still don't understand why VE harbored Lennox for such a long time for such 'terrible acts' and 'secrets revealed'. Seems they weren't too angry, but rather thrilled and completely forgot about them. The explanation to this has thus been incoherent, if even a response has been made about it at all.

[Partisan]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1295382470' post='2581913']
Clearly you fail to understand that lennox in fact did a service to VE. While he did spy on them, he went to great effort to construct an solid looking CB against an enemy they've had their eye on for a time. If anything this is cause for promotion.
[/quote]

Oh, I understand it. I simply don't agree with it. hypocricy etc.

[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1295383124' post='2581935']
[OOC]Yes it is. I'm not saying that users are pretending their rulers find these things abhorrent. I'm saying rulers do not find these things abhorrent, but pretend they do because, as rulers, they want to fight the opposing alliance. There is absolutely nothing OOC about that, and calling it OOC is not a [i]valid[/i] counter to the point that...[/OOC]
Condoning spying, whether due to a set up or not, is a valid CB.

Edit:

They didn't fabricate a CB. They were handed a CB with a bright bow on top of it, but as far as the narrative they're trying to run with here, I kind of agree with you.
[/quote]

Well, everything is pointing at this being a trap purposefully set up by VE, which would indicate that they did indeed try to 'fabricate' a CB.

[Partisan]

[quote name='Rooman33' timestamp='1295383647' post='2581945']
OOC: Dude, your default toolbar search engine is ask.com? Weak

IC: It was only a matter of time until someone did something stupid to start a war... Here's hoping everyone has fun tossing nukes around. I'll try talking my citizens into wearing suntan lotion before going out under the green-tinged sky.
[/quote]

OOC: you may kill me now.

IC: to the popcorn machine, I guess..

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1295384831' post='2581982']
yes, this is the guy of NAMBLA fame we're talking about here. By the way, I called it. Lennox would be back, and it seems he has in a big way .


Still don't understand why VE harbored Lennox for such a long time for such 'terrible acts' and 'secrets revealed'. Seems they weren't too angry, but rather thrilled and completely forgot about them. The explanation to this has thus been incoherent, if even a response has been made about it at all.[/quote]
As VE said, Lennox came and told the truth exactly RIGHT AFTER he spied on them(hmmmm.....). That obviously proves he is a loyal Viridian!

Edited January 18, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Bob Janova]

[quote]On the first, you manufactured a CB[/quote]
Uh ... no. Do you need a dictionary? Manufacturing a CB would imply that no spying occured, or that VE came up with the plan. No, the plan was conceived and executed between Lennox and Dajobo. It doesn't matter if Lennox had ulterior motives, Dajobo still participated, and the Polar (and hangers-on's) defence is 'lol we thought he was joking' – not terribly convincing.

[quote]Rarely have the defenders of a war looked so ridiculous[/quote]
Indeed, an honourable alliance like the NPO would never declare a war over spying. Give it a rest, Vlad ... I know you'd like to find something terribly wrong with PB's behaviour but declaring war over someone spying on you is one of the oldest and best CBs there is.

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295384441' post='2581971']
was that before or after Impero told Dajobo to sod off? i am guessing after given the timestamps from Impero's post a couple of posts above yours. So, Impero tells Dajobo to sod off and then, from what appears to be a middle of the conversation log dump, Random tells Impero to sod off later... yep, still looks like VE said sod off first which kind of makes diplomacy harder. and like i said, this looks like a middle of the conversation log dump, not a beginning of the conversation log dump which means there was most likely some sort of diplomacy attempted before hand which from Random's tone, it appears Impero was basically continuing his sod off style with Random.

so, spin it like you will, anyone with any sort of intelligence can see right through that.
[/quote]
It was after. Dajobo went to Impero and had the conversation in the OP of my thread. I then had a brief chat with Impero telling him to hear Dajobo out. The second set of logs in the OP of my thread took place. Then we move on to the logs quoted above. That is, of course, only a section because that is how poor posters work. I'd put the whole logs in here but they are at home and I am not.

[Penguin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295383802' post='2581947']
It doesn't really matter if that's entirely true, Polar still supported the spying.
[/quote]
I know, Bob Janova. Intent to do harm never really matters in these cases. If you can catch someone in a taboo, even if they are being clueless or careless, there's ample precedent to act on it. It's happened to me once or twice when I was in a position to declare war, and although I didn't, I know a bit about the temptation when someone you don't particularly like drops something easy like this in your lap. I can see you're not in any mindset at present where you'd believe anything I say, but if you ever do want to indulge me it's been far too long since we had a chat.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Penguin

[Pollard]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295378388' post='2581783']
What other fake leaks have I fallen for? I don't even have sources on your "side," so they're not in the habit of lying.
[/quote]


The leak in the prison shower system. Be careful not to drop the soap now.

[Bob Janova]

Penguin, you should think about chatting at times other than when my alliance is fighting NpO! This is quite a habit for you . You're always welcome however.

[Vladimir]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295385126' post='2581993']Indeed, an honourable alliance like the NPO would never declare a war over spying. Give it a rest, Vlad ... I know you'd like to find something terribly wrong with PB's behaviour but declaring war over someone spying on you is one of the oldest and best CBs there is.[/quote]
As has been pointed out quite a lot already, the Order's declaration over accepting screen-shots was what led to the Karma war (and ours was a lot more solid than this sad excuse), which included a declaration and much propaganda by VE and yourself! I don't need to find anything wrong with PB's behaviour, you have already spent years condemning it yourselves.

And that's before we even get to the issue of the prolonged negotiations that we entered into with OV, the fact that we actually reached an agreement with them that avoided war (which OV accepted and VE rejected), or the issue of this so obviously being a set-up that even you are effectively forced to concede it.

I used to think that you were one of the genuine moralists around here, but you've really let the mask slip on this one.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Vladimir

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1295385242' post='2581998']
It was after. Dajobo went to Impero and had the conversation in the OP of my thread. I then had a brief chat with Impero telling him to hear Dajobo out. The second set of logs in the OP of my thread took place. Then we move on to the logs quoted above. That is, of course, only a section because that is how poor posters work. I'd put the whole logs in here but they are at home and I am not.
[/quote]

well like i said, anyone with an ounce of actual intelligence could see that the logs Impero and Beefspari posted was not at the beginning of any conversation but instead in the middle of a conversation, which means that if it is in the middle, there had to be conversation aka diplomacy, before hand. so, yet another lie from VE/et al.

then there is the fact that the timestamps prove that your conversation took place after the Dajobo/Impero time stamps, which means VE was really not in any mood to entertain any sort of diplomacy that Polaris was attempting to do. which again proves that VE/et al is lying yet again.

with 2 lies already proven, that kind of makes one think how many other lies VE/et al are using in this CB?

[Penguin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295385497' post='2582005']
Penguin, you should think about chatting at times other than when my alliance is fighting NpO! This is quite a habit for you . You're always welcome however.
[/quote]
Though most penguins don't hibernate during the winter, I'm not like most penguins. I suppose there''ll be ample time to talk once we've all had our fill and gotten bored, so keep a seat cold for me if you please.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295385126' post='2581993']
Uh ... no. Do you need a dictionary? Manufacturing a CB would imply that no spying occured, or that VE came up with the plan. No, the plan was conceived and executed between Lennox and Dajobo. It doesn't matter if Lennox had ulterior motives, Dajobo still participated, and the Polar (and hangers-on's) defence is 'lol we thought he was joking' – not terribly convincing.
[/quote]
Uh...no
[quote]
: the act or process of producing something
[/quote]
If Lennox had some bias against Polar and did this for VE (or any PB-connected alliance, as I have already pointed out) then it's a manufacturing. Manufacture means to make, which means there had to have been a spy. We can argue what it means to manufacture something that is abstract all day long, but you get the point that there had to be an action which could be used as a CB. Lennox would have been the one to manufacture the CB. In addition, if what you say is true, (that it doesn't not matter that Lennox had his own agenda) then it is entirely possible that there WERE in fact discussions with Lennox by VE on how to set up Polar. So yes, that would quite matter if Lennox had manufactured this CB.

So if I made a false AA on red to be raided and then it got raided, I am manufacturing a CB yes, but they technically raided into it. Doesn't mean that anybody will think that CB is legit because obviously the party doing the manufacturing is going to use whatever small print to avoid the diplomatic process which would probably easily solve the problem.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295385672' post='2582011']
well like i said, anyone with an ounce of actual intelligence could see that the logs Impero and Beefspari posted was not at the beginning of any conversation but instead in the middle of a conversation, which means that if it is in the middle, there had to be conversation aka diplomacy, before hand. so, yet another lie from VE/et al.

then there is the fact that the timestamps prove that your conversation took place after the Dajobo/Impero time stamps, which means VE was really not in any mood to entertain any sort of diplomacy that Polaris was attempting to do. which again proves that VE/et al is lying yet again.

with 2 lies already proven, that kind of makes one think how many other lies VE/et al are using in this CB?
[/quote]

I fail to see how any of the drivel you posted can constitute any lies being proven. What exactly are you saying we lied about?

[Bob Janova]

Vlad, I wasn't talking about Karma, I was talking about all the other wars with spying CBs over the years. The (BIG) difference between Karma and this is that Dajobo (i) sent Lennox out to spy on another alliance (no-one ever even [i]tried[/i] to claim Seth did that) and (ii) actively requested the screenshots, he didn't just 'receive' them.

Edit:
[quote]Lennox would have been the one to manufacture the CB.[/quote]
So when you said 'you', you were just being wrong? Thanks for admitting that you're just throwing crap and hoping some of it will stick. (Also, it was Lennow [b]and the Polar Regent[/b], inconveniently for you conspiracy nuts.)

Edited January 18, 2011 by Bob Janova

[porksaber]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373640' post='2581602']
There's a big difference between "orchestrating a spy ring" and casually suggesting that someone should spy
[/quote]

No way! They are both grievous acts of war and you should attack anyone who does them. If you don't it literally means that you have no testicles.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1295385859' post='2582015']
Uh...no

If Lennox had some bias against Polar and did this for VE (or any PB-connected alliance, as I have already pointed out) then it's a manufacturing. Manufacture means to make, which means there had to have been a spy. We can argue what it means to manufacture something that is abstract all day long, but you get the point that there had to be an action which could be used as a CB. Lennox would have been the one to manufacture the CB. In addition, if what you say is true, (that it doesn't not matter that Lennox had his own agenda) then it is entirely possible that there WERE in fact discussions with Lennox by VE on how to set up Polar. So yes, that would quite matter if Lennox had manufactured this CB.

So if I made a false AA on red to be raided and then it got raided, I am manufacturing a CB yes, but they technically raided into it. Doesn't mean that anybody will think that CB is legit because obviously the party doing the manufacturing is going to use whatever small print to avoid the diplomatic process which would probably easily solve the problem.
[/quote]

Seeing as Lennox and Dajobo had their conversation before he applied as sprog, and subsequently told us who he was, it is pretty easy to see that VE was the one being attempted to be set up. Then Lennox clearly changed his course of action, came to VE to explain what was going on, which is where the tables turned on Polar, and we turned it into a war.

By saying 'manufactured' you imply we built this out of nothing. This one was giftwrapped to us less than a month after Christmas, all we had to do was say yep, we have the 2nd in command of an alliance advising a spy on how to best infiltrate VE and procure information, with his only superior being a known anti-VE stalwart, what good would a negotiation have done? No, sometimes the only way to settle something is with a decent amount of bloodshed.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1295385859' post='2582015']
Uh...no

If Lennox had some bias against Polar and did this for VE (or any PB-connected alliance, as I have already pointed out) then it's a manufacturing. Manufacture means to make, which means there had to have been a spy. We can argue what it means to manufacture something that is abstract all day long, but you get the point that there had to be an action which could be used as a CB. Lennox would have been the one to manufacture the CB. In addition, if what you say is true, (that it doesn't not matter that Lennox had his own agenda) then it is entirely possible that there WERE in fact discussions with Lennox by VE on how to set up Polar. So yes, that would quite matter if Lennox had manufactured this CB.

So if I made a false AA on red to be raided and then it got raided, I am manufacturing a CB yes, but they technically raided into it. Doesn't mean that anybody will think that CB is legit because obviously the party doing the manufacturing is going to use whatever small print to avoid the diplomatic process which would probably easily solve the problem.
[/quote]
But if Lennox did this on his own (which let's face it is much more likely) then it was a clever set up by him and not a manufactured CB by PB. And even at that Lennox's set up only works if NpO supports the spying, which they did.

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295386268' post='2582026']
But if Lennox did this on his own (which let's face it is much more likely) then it was a clever set up by him and not a manufactured CB by PB. And even at that Lennox's set up only works if NpO supports the spying, which they did.
[/quote]
Good old "if you say it enough times it becomes true."

[Earogema]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295385964' post='2582017']
Vlad, I wasn't talking about Karma, I was talking about all the other wars with spying CBs over the years. The (BIG) difference between Karma and this is that Dajobo (i) sent Lennox out to spy on another alliance (no-one ever even [i]tried[/i] to claim Seth did that) and [b](ii) actively requested the screenshots, he didn't just 'receive' them.[/b]
[/quote]
I hate that you people keep spouting this.

While sethb clearly did not sent BC to spy on NPO, he did in fact actively request the logs.
[quote][17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> I got that screenie for you
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> Cheesy
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> about NPO increasing warchest
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> BUT
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> here's the deal
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> ?
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> NPO has an anti-spy feature
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> it's embedded in the image
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> we don't know where
[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> so if that screen shot leaks, we lose a spy
[/quote]
1. "I got that screenie for you", without telling what the screenie was implies that sethb knew what it was.
2. "Cheesy" implies that he wanted it.
3. He obviously did not tell NPO that he had it. (A common arguement is that Dajobo should have told VE that he had gotten the screens from Lennox. Which is something I agree to).
4. He purposely hid the screen in OV to prevent the NPO finding out about the spy.

He wanted the damn screens and new that BC had them. While he may not have told them to spy on BC, he was coordinating with them.

Sethb did not just "receive" shots.