Formal Apology from TGE

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='Nemhauser' timestamp='1294423062' post='2567430']
Thanks for the apology, I'll put it with the others. See you in three months when you guys screw up again.
[/quote]


TGE does seem to be quite the flip-flopper, now don't they? I'd prefer they stay constant in their hating rather than going back and forth :/

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='ColonelTom' timestamp='1294435274' post='2567658']
Now, after all that redirect, misdirection and junk, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?!?
[/quote]


sigh....It has been made clear where you can get the evidence more than once, they are a certain alliance whose name begins with 'N' and ends with 'h'.

[Shurukian]

While I'd like to see a new start, and a serious rebirth from TGE, all of their apologies follow the same format. A new start hasn't been achieved in the past, so why should it be expected now? Good intentions or not, you need to be committed to change. And if you aren't, just don't say it in the first place.

It takes more than one person to bring in change; a fact that most of us have learned, and some of us have learned the hard way. Even if Mark Thomas is sincere in this want for change, I don't believe that all necessary people are on board. As for a serious rebirth, a real difference hasn't really been seen. Bringing in old members isn't really a big change when these problems have been long-lasting.

As for the "I'm sorry, let's move on", it's very easy to apologize when you're in the wrong. But you can't expect NoR to act the same. And I really can't blame them for not jumping on the happy wagon. I'm actually quite impressed at how peacefully Nemhauser has reacted to this and all the other incidents in the past few months/years. But as for dramatic change, I'm not very optimistic.

Sometimes, it's just time to hang your towel.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Shurukian

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='SF Austin' timestamp='1294366624' post='2566552']
You are not our allies and you are not our friends.

Thanks for the kindling
[img]http://www.cgsco.com/images/colin.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Nice to know jerk-off.


Hopefully TGE can move on from this and learn their lesson.

[The MVP]

Of all the ways to go about an apology, this isn't it.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]This is such crap. I guess you have convicting proof? [/quote]
Well, there is a second option, that TGE made up this 'evidence', either a few months ago or just now, for the explicit purpose of damaging Nordreich (and in that case to damage you, a former ally, also). That still doesn't paint them as a good alliance. I don't really care which it is as the conclusion (TGE have been pulling some deeply shady politics with you as a pawn in it) is the same either way.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1294450798' post='2567921']
Well, there is a second option, that TGE made up this 'evidence', either a few months ago or just now, for the explicit purpose of damaging Nordreich (and in that case to damage you, a former ally, also). That still doesn't paint them as a good alliance. I don't really care which it is as the conclusion (TGE have been pulling some deeply shady politics with you as a pawn in it) is the same either way.
[/quote]

The roots of this conflict lay in Norden Verein's defunct [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Nordland_Doctrine]Nordland Doctrine[/url], which did two things: first, it officially asserted their ownership of Nordreich (1) history, and second, it gave them a flimsy pretext to harass all other Germanic alliances, and they used it to target TGE with incessant bullying.

It's pretty obvious that you're a smart guy. Nobody shifts from friend-of-TGE to protectorate of Nordreich (2) on accident. I'm not saying TGE is blameless, but NoR is getting a free ride from people that are too intelligent to feign ignorance. The relationship between NoR and TKoI was at least partly designed to provoke a reaction from TGE. It was a calculated slap in the face.

TGE is politically unsavvy and is unable to effectively counter the sophisticated NoR propaganda machine, so they're being painted as the instigators when, in fact, they're simply responding to a tit-for-tat diplomatic skirmish that was started by the heirs of Nordreich years ago.

The irony here is that it is the reformed Nordreich is the one who first asked everyone to forget/forgive the past and expressed a desire to move on. Now they openly mock those sentiments when TGE expresses them.

-Craig

[i]edit: I do admit that my memory of the events which occurred almost 3 years ago is a bit fuzzy, so I apologize in advance if I made minor errors with my recitation of history. I look forward to being corrected.[/i]

Edited January 8, 2011 by Comrade Craig

[ImperialCubanacan]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294464669' post='2568243']BS[/quote]

Guess what? Nordreich 2006/2007 is gone. Norden Verein 2007/2008 *le gasp* is gone. Get over yourselves, please. We love the flattery, but come on, we didn't leave our phone number on the dresser, so get the hint.


Regards,
Cuba

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='ImperialCubanacan' timestamp='1294465704' post='2568265']
Guess what? Nordreich 2006/2007 is gone. Norden Verein 2007/2008 *le gasp* is gone. Get over yourselves, please. We love the flattery, but come on, we didn't leave our phone number on the dresser, so get the hint.


Regards,
Cuba
[/quote]

Same people. Same name. Same enemies. Same tired old grudges. I think I get the hint quite clearly.

-Craig

[SF Austin]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294466619' post='2568281']
Same people. Same name. Same enemies. Same tired old grudges. I think I get the hint quite clearly.

-Craig
[/quote]

I guess that means we need to outlaw The International and start bombing in five minutes, dont want you to forget how much we loved smashing your infra, oh wait Mr Zog changed all that.......

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294464669' post='2568243']
The roots of this conflict lay in Norden Verein's defunct [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Nordland_Doctrine]Nordland Doctrine[/url], which did two things: first, it officially asserted their ownership of Nordreich (1) history, and second, it gave them a flimsy pretext to harass all other Germanic alliances, and they used it to target TGE with incessant bullying.

It's pretty obvious that you're a smart guy. Nobody shifts from friend-of-TGE to protectorate of Nordreich (2) on accident. I'm not saying TGE is blameless, but NoR is getting a free ride from people that are too intelligent to feign ignorance. The relationship between NoR and TKoI was at least partly designed to provoke a reaction from TGE. It was a calculated slap in the face.

TGE is politically unsavvy and is unable to effectively counter the sophisticated NoR propaganda machine, so they're being painted as the instigators when, in fact, they're simply responding to a tit-for-tat diplomatic skirmish that was started by the heirs of Nordreich years ago.

The irony here is that it is the reformed Nordreich is the one who first asked everyone to forget/forgive the past and expressed a desire to move on. Now they openly mock those sentiments when TGE expresses them.

-Craig

[i]edit: I do admit that my memory of the events which occurred almost 3 years ago is a bit fuzzy, so I apologize in advance if I made minor errors with my recitation of history. I look forward to bei
[/quote]
Here is the only problem with your theory craig is that its TGE instigates these conflicts NoR has not. So to say nor is hashing crap from that past is unfair. They have let things go since their rebirth yet the same alliance keeps trying to cause crap and are the instigators. TGE doesnt need to be painted as anything they are the one causing the issues. In normal circumstances would this need to be posted on the OWF probably not but considering whom were talking about there is a continued double standard for them. If they dont come out publicaly they are screwed. As i stated earlier I understand standing up for your ally but in this case and in the last they are wrong dead wrong. Help them if you can if not cut them loose to the punishment they truly deserve.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294466619' post='2568281']
Same people. Same name. Same enemies. Same tired old grudges. I think I get the hint quite clearly.

-Craig
[/quote]

I think what's really !@#$%^&* in your argument is that you do not recognize who the victim of TGE's manipulation is; tKoI. Can you honestly, for one second, tell me that TGE hasn't made a habit of trying to undermine anyone who leaves them, whether it be an individual or an alliance? We had to put up with that nonsense when RoA formed and we gave TGE [i]multiple[/i] chances to get their !@#$ together even after we caught them not only spying on RoA (a full member of AZTEC at the time) but then re-admitted the spy into their ranks under a different name (and if we knew who he was, then they damn sure knew as well).

Sure, TGE tried to blackmail NoR, but they did it to "get back" at tKoI, not necessarily because it was Nordreich.

Honestly, TGE reminds me of nothing more than a jealous prepubescent school girl who's boyfriend dumped her cause he realized she has the clap, and so now she wants to get back at him by telling his new girlfriend that he got her pregnant and then punched her in the stomach.

That's what TGE is; Planet Bob's chlamydia. The only thing keeping them from being herpes is that there's a cure.

Edited January 8, 2011 by hizzy

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294464669' post='2568243']
The irony here is that it is the reformed Nordreich is the one who first asked everyone to forget/forgive the past and expressed a desire to move on. Now they openly mock those sentiments when TGE expresses them.
[/quote]

Craig, you know better than this.

I have already listed [u]four[/u] separate incidents since our reformation in which TGE actively interfered in Nordreich's internal affairs. We haven't done a damn thing to them to deserve this, and we have not retaliated.

I don't know what the intent of this 'apology' is, beyond a pathetic attempt to get a bit of positive PR. Its author has already personally informed Nordreich, if not the rest of the world, that he has no clue about the kind of games TGE has played in the past twenty months. How can someone who is uninformed apologize for anything?

It's complete rubbish, and anyone who gives this more than a moment's thought can see right through it.

TGE has handed Nordreich and its allies multiple, rock-solid CBs since May 2009. We have done nothing about these incidents beyond complaining to TGE's allies. We have endured being told that mentioning these is somehow an attempt to 'avenge' ourselves on TGE/INT. We sit quietly while FOK, INT and WAPA protect a group of scheming morons from suffering the consequences of their own duplicity and stupidity.

[b]There is no feud.[/b] You and the rest of TGE's allies really need to drill that idea into your skulls. If one exists, it is in the minds of those inside and outside K-Fred's circle who tolerate TGE's repeated potshots at the alliance I helped to found and once led.

[Earl Dumarest]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1294479752' post='2568484']
We sit quietly while FOK, INT and WAPA protect a group of scheming morons from suffering the consequences of their own duplicity and stupidity.
[/quote]

I prefer to think of them as "bumbling idiots" rather than "scheming morons". Why would I even say such a thing? Well my experience is that TGE is a very hard group to like. The relationship between WAPA and TGE has been strained many times.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1294479752' post='2568484']
[b]There is no feud.[/b] You and the rest of TGE's allies really need to drill that idea into your skulls. If one exists, it is in the minds of those inside and outside K-Fred's circle who tolerate TGE's repeated potshots at the alliance I helped to found and once led.
[/quote]

Not a feud, but maybe sibling rivalry. Not as brothers, but perhaps as step brothers? Preposterous you say?

[erikz]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294466619' post='2568281']
Same people. Same name. Same enemies. Same tired old grudges. I think I get the hint quite clearly.

-Craig
[/quote]
Not really. Maybe you should help your political train-wreck of an ally instead of giving Flinders a hard time now... TGE also isn't the same alliance it was, its just a pitiful extract of the once mighty, and more importantly, honourable Empire.

I usually do not agree with Nordreich or Flinders but I have to pick his side on this one.

Edited January 8, 2011 by erikz

[Bob Janova]

Craig, you should know that I was no fan of the original Nordreich or Norden Verein (or of the second Nordreich either, to be honest), but trying to shift the blame for TGE's actions here onto something started by a different alliance several years ago is fairly ridiculous, even in the role of being required to find some way to support an ally in this type of thread. Yes, NoR/NoV/NoR have played dirty political tricks in the past. That doesn't stop this one by TGE being dirty, probably the dirtiest of all, and it shouldn't stop them getting criticism for it.

[quote]TGE is politically unsavvy and is unable to effectively counter the sophisticated NoR propaganda machine, so they're being painted as the instigators when, in fact, they're simply responding to a tit-for-tat diplomatic skirmish that was started by the heirs of Nordreich years ago.[/quote]
The ineffective PR attempt is one part of the story, but I think the bigger one is that they deliberately either stored up or made up damaging information on an alliance they were perfectly happy to protect, in order to blackmail them and take shots at Nordreich when they decided to cut ties with TGE. Either that or TGE's government really is so incompetent that half of them didn't know what the other half was doing, though I find that doubtful; this sort of blackmail is generally planned and discussed.

CN is littered with terrible alliances protected by powerful ones; one might well put the original Nordreich and NoV in that category, too. Eventually, if they keep being terrible enough (i.e. they keep ignoring their allies' advice), they get dropped.

[Col Ralke]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1294492064' post='2568539']
Either that or TGE's government really is so incompetent that half of them didn't know what the other half was doing[/quote]
I would say two-thirds don't know what one third is doing.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Earl Dumarest' timestamp='1294488318' post='2568524']Not a feud, but maybe sibling rivalry. Not as brothers, but perhaps as step brothers? Preposterous you say?[/quote]

That's [u]exactly[/u] what I say. Not even as step-brothers. Our bloodlines are completely different. At best, given the current treaty web, we are fifth or sixth cousins, several times removed.

To reiterate: Before NoR re-founded, I approached all of our traditional adversaries and said that we had no intention of re-igniting old quarrels. INT and LSF, while not thrilled with our reappearance on the world stage, were at least prepared to give us a chance. (And the three of us did work together to ferret out spies and agents provocateurs shortly after NoR's reformation.) TGE, on the other hand, has actively attempted to meddle in Nordreich's internal affairs since Day One.

Were this a rivalry, we might have responded in kind. Instead, with each idiotic move on TGE's part we have approached their protectors, accepted one 'sincere TGE apology' after another, and moved on.

This should help to explain why our reaction to this 'apology' -- delivered by someone who has admitted he knows nothing of what TGE has done to NoR -- is one of complete contempt.

We have been nothing but patient with respect to TGE, but both they and their protectors need to understand that while Nordreich does not want to be in the position of 'breaking the treaty web', our patience is not limitless.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1294508329' post='2568668']
We have been nothing but patient with respect to TGE, but both they and their protectors need to understand that while Nordreich does not want to be in the position of 'breaking the treaty web',[b] our patience is not limitless.[/b]
[/quote]
I concur, hopefully this will be the last of such incidents....for all our sakes.

[der Rote Baron]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294464669' post='2568243']
The roots of this conflict lay in Norden Verein's defunct [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Nordland_Doctrine]Nordland Doctrine[/url], which did two things: first, it officially asserted their ownership of Nordreich (1) history, and second, it gave them a flimsy pretext to harass all other Germanic alliances, and they used it to target TGE with incessant bullying.

It's pretty obvious that you're a smart guy. Nobody shifts from friend-of-TGE to protectorate of Nordreich (2) on accident. I'm not saying TGE is blameless, but NoR is getting a free ride from people that are too intelligent to feign ignorance. The relationship between NoR and TKoI was at least partly designed to provoke a reaction from TGE. It was a calculated slap in the face.

TGE is politically unsavvy and is unable to effectively counter the sophisticated NoR propaganda machine, so they're being painted as the instigators when, in fact, they're simply responding to a tit-for-tat diplomatic skirmish that was started by the heirs of Nordreich years ago.

The irony here is that it is the reformed Nordreich is the one who first asked everyone to forget/forgive the past and expressed a desire to move on. Now they openly mock those sentiments when TGE expresses them.

-Craig

[i]edit: I do admit that my memory of the events which occurred almost 3 years ago is a bit fuzzy, so I apologize in advance if I made minor errors with my recitation of history. I look forward to being corrected.[/i]
[/quote]
This is is great post, and so true.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='der Rote Baron' timestamp='1294528192' post='2568954']
This is is great post, and so true.
[/quote]

Not really. TGE only wants to move on now cause their PR stunt backfired and they realized they were being stupid.

[Believland]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294464669' post='2568243']

It's pretty obvious that you're a smart guy. Nobody shifts from friend-of-TGE to protectorate of Nordreich (2) on accident. I'm not saying TGE is blameless, but NoR is getting a free ride from people that are too intelligent to feign ignorance. The relationship between NoR and TKoI was at least partly designed to provoke a reaction from TGE. It was a calculated slap in the face.
[/quote]

How dare someone who wants to upgrade? Seriously though, you might want to see if Fernando has any tinfoil left.

[Schattenmann]

Hey, at least you tried.

[Comrade Craig]

I stand by my original assertion. TGE is one of a few historical victims of the NoR/NoV bullying machine. The fact that Nordreich has arbitrarily drawn a line, declared themselves to be "new", and unilaterally disconnected themselves from the their own history doesn't change [i]reality[/i], and the reality is that TGE was a punching bag for the guys who now call themselves Nordreich. I can't get inside the heads of TGE members or gov't. Maybe they thought this was an opportunity to finally dish out some abuse in retaliation for the constant humiliation that they suffered. Or maybe not. Sometimes the targets of abuse lashes out in inappropriate ways. Given their history of being a victim to NoR/NoV, they deserve a little slack, whether they're guilty of this current offense or not.

In the end, people will either recognize the truth in my words and show TGE some sympathy or they won't; but I won't stand idly by and pretend that history never happened, no matter how many people mindlessly hail the (second? third? I lost count) Reich for its "principled" stand.

-Craig

Edited January 9, 2011 by Comrade Craig

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1294552360' post='2569364']
I stand by my original assertion. TGE is one of a few historical victims of the NoR/NoV bullying machine. The fact that Nordreich has arbitrarily drawn a line, declared themselves to be "new", and unilaterally disconnected themselves from the their own history doesn't change [i]reality[/i], and the reality is that TGE was a punching bag for the guys who now call themselves Nordreich. I can't get inside the heads of TGE members or gov't. Maybe they thought this was an opportunity to finally dish out some abuse in retaliation for the constant humiliation that they suffered. Or maybe not. Sometimes the targets of abuse lashes out in inappropriate ways. Given their history of being a victim to NoR/NoV, they deserve a little slack, whether they're guilty of this current offense or not.

In the end, people will either recognize the truth in my words and show TGE some sympathy or they won't; but I won't stand idly by and pretend that history never happened, no matter how many people mindlessly hail the (second? third? I lost count) Reich for its "principled" stand.

-Craig
[/quote]

Your version of "history" is most interesting. The very root of this problem is the inability of people to accept that this NoR is not NoV or the first NoR. They are doing their best to shed the problems of the past incarnations but the stigma is perpetuated by people unwilling to let them move forward.

Do you feel the same way about VE, \m/, GOONS?