CN Alternate History

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1292351238' post='2539578']
I don't envy the position you were in there. If we hadn't have disbanded, I'd have come out swinging with my nukes and gone down in a blaze of glory. Maybe the VE is forcibly disbanded and I try to move on with GOD, if I get the chance. Maybe FAN goes on with their attack on NoV anyway and divides WUT (they only hit a couple of CIS nations in the war anyway). Maybe some of the alliances on the sidelines decide to come to our aid.

Of course, if you're going to question your decisions, then I have to question my own. Maybe I don't take that vacation after the previous Thanksgiving and manage to convince the rest of gov to turn down joining WUT, as I helped with turning down the AoA. Maybe I convince Egore not to go independent. Maybe I make more overtures to TOP and NpO, the only alliances that really supported us in WUT during the GCW. Maybe if I had done my job, I wouldn't have been so helpless when our darkest hour came. But who knows, maybe all that needed to happen for us to be where we are now.
[/quote]

my change for the GCW- Polaris grows some balls and defends VE. that has always pissed me off that we sat on the sidelines.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292355301' post='2539625']
The Karma War is still fought at about the same point in history but ends in a much less decisive fashion, but in Karma victory. The Bipolar War is never fought.

My "What if?"...

ChairmanHal launches a coup within Ragnarok in February 2008, providing detailed logs to Moo at that same time detailing the plots being organized in the background against NPO in in exchange for Pacifican and Q support.

The result...

Ragnarok is ripped apart by civil war. SF and Q are immediately at war and allies for both sides are dragged in by treaty. A bloody struggle continues into early summer with white peace in the end. Ragnarok disbands, ChairmanHal joins NPO (ok, maybe I'd just quit ).

A second war, parallel to the Bipolar War, ends in a decisive Karma victory after Polaris joins the fight on Karma's side.
[/quote]

Interesting what if. I do remember you being the only Tri I liked at the time (I believe the other two were rish and Tails?). Of course, you'd have been hard pressed to find members of RoK to stick with you if NPO was on your side.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292355301' post='2539625']
The Karma War is still fought at about the same point in history but ends in a much less decisive fashion, but in Karma victory. The Bipolar War is never fought.

My "What if?"...

ChairmanHal launches a coup within Ragnarok in February 2008, providing detailed logs to Moo at that same time detailing the plots being organized in the background against NPO in in exchange for Pacifican and Q support.

The result...

Ragnarok is ripped apart by civil war. SF and Q are immediately at war and allies for both sides are dragged in by treaty. A bloody struggle continues into early summer with white peace in the end. Ragnarok disbands, ChairmanHal joins NPO (ok, maybe I'd just quit ).

A second war, parallel to the Bipolar War, ends in a decisive Karma victory after Polaris joins the fight on Karma's side.
[/quote]
There probably wouldn't be a civil war. You would probably just be kicked and then you would promptly go to NPO, whom would immediately attack SF in an effort to prevent a war such as Karma from happening. However, due to the timing many treaty cancellations probably would not have taken place yet and the sides would have been drastically (and admittedly begrudgingly) different in favor of NPO.

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292355818' post='2539629']
No, he's been around since 06. TPF made a deal with Polar to surrender, even before the war. It's not surprising since the entire alliance was founded on traitors from Fark. We should have seen that coming.
[/quote]

It's like with relationships; if they cheated in the first place to get with you, how can you ever really say they are trustworthy after that? I had always liked TF! before that from my very limited interactions with them, and that was the first big betrayal I experienced in the game. In some ways, it seemed way worse than anything ~ did.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1292352042' post='2539588']
Everything happens for a reason. I can guarantee nobody would be where they are if even the tiniest details were altered. Can you imagine where we would be without Sponge? I can't.
[/quote]
I don't see VE moving away from NpO if not for Sponge DoWing FIST (and if not for that the Ardus-Sponge logs would've never happened). The only point of contention between VE and NpO before that was over GOD, and diplomacy had won out there time and again. If the WotC had happened without that tie breaking, VE likely would've been neutral or even joined on BLEU's side, but it's impossible to say for sure.

[Caliph]

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1292350397' post='2539566']
...and how did that work out?

Patience, a bit of political savvy and faith in those who signed Drinking Buddies would have went a lot further.
[/quote]
This is one thing that I do agree, but you should remember that there was an atmosphere of fear and mistrust during Black Friday that year, which left us fearful and angry and, most importantly, divided. Some agreed with those events, others called them travesties. And that was the split in the Initiative. When Ivan came back to coup Moo, the entire Initiative, except for NpO, and perhaps GGA I'm not sure, voted to support Moo in the dispute. Ivan was bent on taking GOONS out before they passed NPO for good, we say the writing on the wall, and we knew with Ivan in power the anti GOONS sentiment in NPO and NpO and GGA would have been realised into a war, similar to how to curbstomped FAN and kicked them out of the WUT. The Unjust Path was only formed to defend GOONS from NPO agressions. It was similar to Karma in the regard that if outside forces hadn't attacked it, it would not have amounted to much.

The thing is by taking that defensive action, NPO's fears were realised and they, and others, saw it as a power ploy by GOONS. By taking defensive action it was perceived as an agressive action and that made NPO see the Unjust Path, and GOONS, as the biggest threat to them, and not Polar.

If we had played things better, and sat back and put our thinking caps on, things could have worked out differently. But there are multiple reasons things didn't, among them being the leaders who had done a good job no longer had the will to lead anymore. They were burned out and either didn't make good choices, or their replacements didn't make good choices.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292355818' post='2539629']
No, he's been around since 06. TPF made a deal with Polar to surrender, even before the war. It's not surprising since the entire alliance was founded on traitors from Fark. We should have seen that coming.
[/quote]
This is correct, TPF agreed to white peace before that war even started. TPF went through the motions and promptly surrendered and was the only alliance in that entire coalition to get white peace. We viewed your actions in the war as a betrayal. At least with Sponge we knew where he was coming from, he was an enemy and a blatant one. You we viewed as an ally, and those are the betrayals that sting the most.

Edit:

Heres a "what if". What if Legion had actually fought decently in GW3? If Legion had put up a credible defense/offense in that war, they would have still lost due to other factors, but the AEGIS side would not have lost as badly, and Legion would have in a better position after the war. Due to Legion not being labeled the "paper tiger", and having war experience under their belt, perhaps they would have been able to rally allies to be a counter bloc to the Initiative after the war. Not right away, but perhaps they would have remained independent, but strong as an alliance, instead of the easy prey that Valhalla and NPO found (Valhalla because Valhalla had the CB which started the "Dove" War which was right before the Unjust War, when Valhalla, MCXA, \m/, Genmay, and GOONS all hit Legion, but Legion largely got to peace mode). Perhaps that war would not have happened, or it if did could have triggered the next great war. With a strong Legion out there for anti WUT alliances to flock to, perhaps the Initiative would have stuck together for a little while longer. Perhaps still splintering later, but the fear of a strong anti WUT force would have kept them together until the outside force was destroyed.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Caliph

[Monster]

Something I never really got was why the Unjust Path didn't try to collect the Aegis alliances and instead antagonized them. You mentioned the Dove War and then there was the attempted extortion by \m/.

[JBone]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1292353500' post='2539604']
TPF would still be traitorous scumbags.
[/quote]
Love you too buttercup.


[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292355818' post='2539629']
No, he's been around since 06. TPF made a deal with Polar to surrender, even before the war. It's not surprising since the entire alliance was founded on traitors from Fark. We should have seen that coming.
[/quote]
There was no deal prior to the war, no matter how many times you or anyone else says differently.

TPFs closest allies at the time were GOONS and NPO. GOONS had given those of us who were TF! our first protectorate/treaty which allowed us to survive, prosper and give the proverbial bird to the shadow LUE government running Farkistan at the time. NPO took us in as well, protection, aid and training without asking for anything in return. In UJW TPF was in a no win situation, allies on both sides(we were the only UJP AA who still held/hold a treaty with NPO)

How were we to know GOONS leadership would do the [b]ONE[/b] thing, they were told beforehand, that would cause TPF to leave the war. We were the major reason NPO didn't roll with Polar. We tries furiously to get peace for the rest of UJP but by that time things had spiraled out of control at GOONS and \m/s lack of established leadership allowed a sanctioned 400 nation AA to disband.

As I recall though MK didn't make out all that bad......they surrendered what? A day or two after TPF, and in no small part due to the same reason we did. Somehow no one ever mentions this.


[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292369999' post='2539793']
This is one thing that I do agree, but you should remember that there was an atmosphere of fear and mistrust during Black Friday that year, which left us fearful and angry and, most importantly, divided. Some agreed with those events, others called them travesties. And that was the split in the Initiative. When Ivan came back to coup Moo, the entire Initiative, except for NpO, and perhaps GGA I'm not sure, voted to support Moo in the dispute. Ivan was bent on taking GOONS out before they passed NPO for good, we say the writing on the wall, and we knew with Ivan in power the anti GOONS sentiment in NPO and NpO and GGA would have been realised into a war, similar to how to curbstomped FAN and kicked them out of the WUT. The Unjust Path was only formed to defend GOONS from NPO agressions. It was similar to Karma in the regard that if outside forces hadn't attacked it, it would not have amounted to much.

The thing is by taking that defensive action, NPO's fears were realised and they, and others, saw it as a power ploy by GOONS. By taking defensive action it was perceived as an agressive action and that made NPO see the Unjust Path, and GOONS, as the biggest threat to them, and not Polar.

If we had played things better, and sat back and put our thinking caps on, things could have worked out differently. But there are multiple reasons things didn't, among them being the leaders who had done a good job no longer had the will to lead anymore. They were burned out and either didn't make good choices, or their replacements didn't make good choices.[/quote]
I agree with most of what you say. Where I would differ is that NPO didn't veiw UJP as the threat everyone thought it did. NpO, more so Sponge, saw it as a way to isolate NPO and weaken their power base, and thus draw them back to needing NpO once again. If cooler heads prevailed things would have turned out very differently. Give credit to Mr Wonderful though, he played it well.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292369999' post='2539793']
This is correct, TPF agreed to white peace before that war even started. TPF went through the motions and promptly surrendered and was the only alliance in that entire coalition to get white peace. We viewed your actions in the war as a betrayal. At least with Sponge we knew where he was coming from, he was an enemy and a blatant one. You we viewed as an ally, and those are the betrayals that sting the most.[/quote]
See above.

[Monster]

Um, ~ leadership has said there was a deal before the war. Jonathan Brookbank has testified to it being the case on multiple occasions.

[JBone]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292374397' post='2539845']
Um, ~ leadership has said there was a deal before the war. Jonathan Brookbank has testified to it being the case on multiple occasions.
[/quote]
I was TPF MoW at the time, I would have been aware of any such deal.

That's not the way it went down, despite Mr Brookbanks testimony.

Funny how [b]ZERO[/b] logs of this phantom deal, that everyone was privy to, have [b]EVER[/b] materialised....not even from ES.

Think about it.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292373958' post='2539841']
Something I never really got was why the Unjust Path didn't try to collect the Aegis alliances and instead antagonized them. You mentioned the Dove War and then there was the attempted extortion by \m/.
[/quote]
The alliances in the UJP held a deep distrust of the Aegis alliances at the time (WAE, TRASH CAN) and it's doubtful Aegis would have chosen to ally GOONS (the boogieman) over NPO. At the same time there wasn't very much time between GW3, Ivan's coup, the formation of the UJP and the UJW to really form solid relationships that would lead to treaties being signed in time for the upcoming war. It's also important not to forget about modgate; that couldn't have been great for FA coordination among \m/ and GOONS. Even if a few treaties were signed I doubt there were very many alliances that could have swung the tide of war if everything went according to plan as it did (TPF betrayal, etc).

Edited December 15, 2010 by Biazt

[Caliph]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292373958' post='2539841']
Something I never really got was why the Unjust Path didn't try to collect the Aegis alliances and instead antagonized them. You mentioned the Dove War and then there was the attempted extortion by \m/.
[/quote]
The Unjust and the former AEGIS didn't get on, Sponge was masterful in using our PR against us. He played up everyone's fears. He brought up all the reasons people hated us, and used many alliances dislikes to his advantage. To his credit, JB helped as well. Our Unjust image hurt us, as nobody accepted it when we did nice things. When GUARD disbanded the UjP stated they would protect all former members for 30 days, and nobody cared. Honestly it was an attempt to get some positive PR, but that didn't work. Too obvious.

We were the types who would run around raiding folk, and if you complained we would raid you even more, and then laughed while doing it. I don't see how raiding someone is fine but raiding someone and having fun while doing it is somehow 100 times worse, but i'll not get into that here. People hated Shark week, people hated the ZI game show, and we didn't mind being hated.

Do you really think AEGIS alliances would go to the UjP over the NPO or NpO?
There would be a huge culture clash, and honestly we were viewed as the boogeymen, NPO as some just honorable alliance, and NpO and GGA as some moral beacons to rally behind.

We tried to expand our FA to non traditional allies, but failed at it due to a variety of reasons. Anyone else remember the failed \m/ IRON MDoAP?

Relationships take time, and the Unjust mentality was still stuck in GW3 where AEGIS was not to be trusted.

In all honesty, we were outplayed and outmaneuvered at every pass. We knew we had people gunning for us but we thought we were invincible so we didn't care until it was too late.

[Caliph]

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1292374224' post='2539844']
I agree with most of what you say. Where I would differ is that NPO didn't veiw UJP as the threat everyone thought it did. NpO, more so Sponge, saw it as a way to isolate NPO and weaken their power base, and thus draw them back to needing NpO once again. If cooler heads prevailed things would have turned out very differently. Give credit to Mr Wonderful though, he played it well.
[/quote]
I agree that Sponge saw it as a way to manipulate NPO and JB and Sponge were able to convince enough people that GOONS was making a power play. NPO fell for it, as did so many others.

That is not to say the UjP might not have eventually become a power play for GOONS to be more dominant than NPO, but at the time the UjW war rolled around there was absolutely no plan or plot to overthrow NPO; the UjP saw NPO as an ally (well all but GS and MK, who were the only members to not have overlapping membership in the WUT). An ally who, if leadership changed, would become an enemy, whose advisors were bent on destroying GOONS.

Mr wonderful's actions were definately masterful, as was JB's. That coalition was formed excellently, and both were able to maximize their potential due to our ineptitude. It also helped that there was a general feeling of unease, mistrust, anger, and fear prevelant in the world at the time over Black Friday. The Community itself was divided, and rallied behind the so called "justice league", later renamed to ~ because the name was so bad

Anyway, Mr wonderful and JB did a great job at executing their plan. To everyone's suprise that plan was executed to even more success than they had ever hoped. They succeded in disbanding the then #3 alliance (GOONS) and the #5 or 6 alliance (\m/) at the time, who at the start of the war was one sanction spot above NpO, who had about half the members.

Perhaps that was not their intent, but nevertheless it happened, and it has shaped the cyberverse as we see it today.

If \m/ and GOONS had never disbanded, but had been able to secure a peace, the world today would be different. Perhaps the UjP would have survived, however the grudges would still be there, as many in the UjP viewed the breakup of the WUT and the refusal of former WUT aliances to enter the war in our defense as a betrayal. If the UjP had survived that war, with GOONS and \m/ not disbanding, I can garauntee you would've seen a cold war between them and BLEU, waiting for a rematch.

How that would've turned out would depend on the quality of the leaders in the alliances, as well as if BLEU had tried to be the power players and made a lot of people angry like they did before Continuum rolled them.

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1292374224' post='2539844']
See above.
[/quote]

I find it suspect TPF was the only alliance in that coalition to get white peace. MK who surrender a day or 2 after you got harsh terms, they wouldn't even let Genmay or \m/ surrender yet, and surrender terms for GOONS were out of the question at the time. With your then allies on the chopping bloc, you accepted white peace and promptly flipped to the other side. We enterred that war together, and you left it first and went to those who helped bury us.

If there was no deal at the start of the war, you sure got a hell of a break and promptly used it to screw over your then allies.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1292290419' post='2538986']
The sides were a lot more even than they wound up being, but we did have enough of an edge that we most likely would have won. I can probably dig up the stats breakdowns still if you care enough and I find the time between finals to go hunting through records.
[/quote]
Can confirm this, even the most optimistic estimations on our side at the time suggested your side having an edge.

Also, Good thread.

Edited December 15, 2010 by shahenshah

[Il Impero Romano]

I sometimes wonder how things would have been had I not acted on OV's behalf during the Karma negotiations.


(In before "torpedo" accusations again)

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292377546' post='2539863']
When GUARD disbanded the UjP stated they would protect all former members for 30 days, and nobody cared.

[/quote]

I used all my clout as Minister of Defense in the RIA to push one of our trivumvirates to side with UJP. RIA (MK MDP) brought ASC (GOONS MDP), and fark was gave MHA and NATO the finger and went with SF on the Unjust Highway, and even though we lost, i don't regret that at all.

The only reason I did that was because you protected us, and for that you have my thanks.

Sparta on the other hand grabbed a handful of Order...

<333

Edited December 15, 2010 by Emperor Whimsical

[Caliph]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1292386719' post='2539946']
I used all my clout as Minister of Defense in the RIA to push one of our trivumvirates to side with UJP. RIA (MK MDP) brought ASC (GOONS MDP), and fark was gave MHA and NATO the finger and went with SF on the Unjust Highway, and even though we lost, i don't regret that at all.

The only reason I did that was because you protected us, and for that you have my thanks.

Sparta on the other hand grabbed a handful of Order...

<333
[/quote]
Right, I remember that now. Superfriends did join and was tearing GGA up that war if I remember right. That was awesome

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292355522' post='2539627']
Didn't we establish, many moons ago, that you weren't even around Planet Bob in September 2007?

Nahh...TPF was on Electron Sponge's "let them live" list, along with MK. I never blamed Slayer for taking the deal, especially knowing what I knew then.
[/quote]

Been active and paying plenty of attention since October of 2006. I heard it straight from Sponge's mouth. TPF sold out the Unjust Path to save their own ass. There's no getting around it.

[Sephiroth]

If OG wasn't booted from The Citadel I think it would still be intact.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292387982' post='2539959']
Right, I remember that now. Superfriends did join and was tearing GGA up that war if I remember right. That was awesome
[/quote]

Aye. SF was formed from some exGUARD and fark.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292355818' post='2539629']
No, he's been around since 06. TPF made a deal with Polar to surrender, even before the war. It's not surprising since the entire alliance was founded on traitors from Fark. We should have seen that coming.
[/quote]

There was a period of "enforced vacation" that figures in as I recall...

At any rate, Slayer's stated reason to me for departing the field had significantly more to do with the whole Bilrow episode than any pre-war agreement. Whether that is actually how to went down would be something for him to answer and at this point he's not exactly around to defend himself.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292389262' post='2539976']
There was a period of "enforced vacation" that figures in as I recall...

At any rate, Slayer's stated reason to me for departing the field had significantly more to do with the whole Bilrow episode than any pre-war agreement. Whether that is actually how to went down would be something for him to answer and at this point he's not exactly around to defend himself.
[/quote]

The Bilrow noise was simply a good opportunity to fulfill the pre-war agreement with ~ and to gain a few moral points for everybody's favorite white knight crusader Slayer99.

edit: regarding my ban, I was actively trying to get unbanned from my ban in August all the way until September 20th, when I withdrew my appeal and accepted the ban. During that time period and the entire UJW, I was as active, if not more, than any other \m/ member and still read the OWF daily.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Chief Savage Man

[Monster]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1292388304' post='2539967']
If OG wasn't booted from The Citadel I think it would still be intact.
[/quote]

Probably would have broken up sooner, actually as that was the product of pre-Karma issues.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292389978' post='2539990']
Probably would have broken up sooner, actually as that was the product of pre-Karma issues.
[/quote]
I think Umbrella would of left sooner if OG stayed which is largely why OG got booted, but if OG wasn't booted Citadel might of had enough signatories still interested in keeping it going that Umbrella leaving wouldn't of been the end for the bloc.

[Monster]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1292391885' post='2540023']
I think Umbrella would of left sooner if OG stayed which is largely why OG got booted, but if OG wasn't booted Citadel might of had enough signatories still interested in keeping it going that Umbrella leaving wouldn't of been the end for the bloc.
[/quote]


I don't see it being viable without Gremlins or Umbrella. It wouldn't have changed Gre's direction.