Pandora's Box

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288983665' post='2503065']
No, you didn't.

Perhaps the missing important stuff was not given to you. However, that's not the point.
[/quote]
Yes actually that's the entire point, because it's the difference between a lie by omission, which you are accusing me of, and what actually happened.

Regardless, the only stuff that's surfaced that I didn't have was the part where NpO backpedals. I presented what I had.

Oh, and you'll be pleased to know I found more recently, see my recent blog.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Sardonic

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288983665' post='2503065']
Then show a time when you declared war, putting your alliance at risk.

You take opportunities to attack your enemies whenever you can do so without putting yourselves at risk.

CSA was just another example of that.
[/quote]
I am sorry if you are unable to correctly understand a simple statement that you yourself made, but somehow you're missing your own point.

I'm not sure how to further explain the fact that the statement "GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win." is [i]literally[/i] refuted by the fact that we declared war on CSA because they aided Methrage. Risk need not factor into it.

I'm not arguing about "GOONS has never declared war that has put itself at risk". If you want to argue about [i]that[/i] statement, I'd be glad to (though not in this thread), but it a very different statement than the one you originally made.

[quote]
#stratego happened before ODN negotiated the higher reps with you guys.

So no, it wasn't.
[/quote]
ODN didn't have anything to do with the tech raid situation; it had to do with the UOKMB members that UPN was accepting, and they didn't negotiate higher reps - they simply paid what UPN had already agreed to but then backed out on.

The tech raid was resolved by the individual nations involved (without permission from government on either end) before #stratego happened, which I'm pretty sure is even shown in the logs Sard posted.

[quote]
That's called strategy.

It's exactly the same kind of thing that was done to NPO. Do you think that the Karma War was manufactured?
[/quote]
I thought the Karma War began with an offensive declaration by the NPO. Could you elaborate on the similarities?

Edited November 5, 2010 by ktarthan

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288985964' post='2503091']
I'm not arguing about "GOONS has never declared war that has put itself at risk". If you want to argue about [i]that[/i] statement, I'd be glad to (though not in this thread), but it a very different statement than the one you originally made.
[/quote]
No, it's not. Your problems with reading comprehension are not my problem.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288985964' post='2503091']
ODN didn't have anything to do with the tech raid situation; it had to do with the UOKMB members that UPN was accepting, and they didn't negotiate higher reps - they simply paid what UPN had already agreed to but then backed out on.
[/quote]
I thought ODN also negotiated reps for the UPN member that was attacked?

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288985964' post='2503091']
The tech raid was resolved by the individual nations involved (without permission from government on either end) before #stratego happened, which I'm pretty sure is even shown in the logs Sard posted.
[/quote]
No, it wasn't. UPN's government does not allow individual members to resolve reparations on their own, like a lot of alliances.

Higher reps were negotiated (I thought by ODN) and paid by your alliance to UPN.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288985964' post='2503091']
I thought the Karma War began with an offensive declaration by the NPO. Could you elaborate on the similarities?
[/quote]
Indeed it did. A trap was laid; a CB was created that NPO would consider sufficient to go to war on but that most of Planet Bob would consider not valid. Then, NPO declared war based on the CB that they were given, and you know the rest.

This is what is known as strategy.

[SirWilliam]

Someone really believes, or is at least seriously contending, that working to create/manufacture/fabricate a reason to go to war (those that were looking to set GOONS up for that explicit purpose) doesn't constitute the creation/manufacture/fabrication of a CB?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288993125' post='2503152']
No, it's not. Your problems with reading comprehension are not my problem.
[/quote]
Saying "for no other reason than to declar war and win" is much different than "has never declared war with significant risk". One points out the reason for war exclusively as the ability to win. The other points out that lack of risk is inclusive in the reason for war. The first, in reference to GOONS, is demonstrably false as I have done. The other is more subjective, but is not compatable with your initial assertion.

[quote]
I thought ODN also negotiated reps for the UPN member that was attacked?
[/quote]
Nope. Read below.

[quote]
No, it wasn't. UPN's government does not allow individual members to resolve reparations on their own, like a lot of alliances.

Higher reps were negotiated (I thought by ODN) and paid by your alliance to UPN.
[/quote]
That's why I said without permission on either end. We don't allow individual members to resolve reps either, but they went ahead and did it, and then sent peace. This is why there was some confusion in some of our communication with UPN, as we honestly had no idea where the $1m figure came from so we assumed was someone on their end (which was technically true), until we got the story straight from the raider. After that we offered to pay for damages to UPN if they wished to calculate them and they were found to be over the amount already paid. They never got back to us, nor contested this resolution.

ODN, as I said, was only involved with the ex-UOKMB members, and we even gave them a discount for their troubles.

[quote]
Indeed it did. A trap was laid; a CB was created that NPO would consider sufficient to go to war on but that most of Planet Bob would consider not valid. Then, NPO declared war based on the CB that they were given, and you know the rest.

This is what is known as strategy.
[/quote]
I have a hard time believing that after reading the OV-NPO negotiation logs leading up to that situation. But hey, I wasn't there.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1288974183' post='2502974']
Boss, are you claiming that Halflinger here is a worse poster than Schatt? 'Cos, damn, that is a bold claim.
[/quote]

Naa, Haflinger by country mile man, Shatt has a solid past to lay claim to, Haf has always been terrible.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288921284' post='2502491']
lol, they were clearly searching for a CB. At least some people in #stratego were; many were just there to observe.

What I take exception to is the idea that they were trying to manufacture one. Finding a valid CB and trying to fabricate one are two very different things.
[/quote]

Of course they were manufacturing one. A CB's validity is relative and based on popular opinion. The fact that they were looking at it from several different angles and CB's should speak to the fact they didn't believe in the actual cause as they were to simply rolling GOONS.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1289024569' post='2503738']
Of course they were manufacturing one. A CB's validity is relative and based on popular opinion. The fact that they were looking at it from several different angles and CB's should speak to the fact they didn't believe in the actual cause as they were to simply rolling GOONS.
[/quote]

It has already been pointed out to him that they were looking for any [s]reason[/s] chance/opportunity/manufactured attempt to hit us, he chooses to ignore that on a consistent basis, It truly is mission impossible trying to break his thick skull enough to open the idea that he's actually wrong and full of !@#$.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288995122' post='2503181']
That's why I said without permission on either end. We don't allow individual members to resolve reps either, but they went ahead and did it, and then sent peace. This is why there was some confusion in some of our communication with UPN, as we honestly had no idea where the $1m figure came from so we assumed was someone on their end (which was technically true), until we got the story straight from the raider. After that we offered to pay for damages to UPN if they wished to calculate them and they were found to be over the amount already paid. They never got back to us, nor contested this resolution.
[/quote]
Ah, OK. My bad, I thought ODN was involved in that too.

The point still remains that this negotiation took place after the #stratego logs.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288995122' post='2503181']
I have a hard time believing that after reading the OV-NPO negotiation logs leading up to that situation. But hey, I wasn't there.
[/quote]
Blackstone leaked the CB to TORN hoping to produce exactly this situation.

Yes, it was a really dumb trap. It did work though.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289033038' post='2503822']
It has already been pointed out to him that they were [b]looking[/b] for any [s]reason[/s] chance/opportunity/manufactured attempt to hit us, he chooses to ignore that on a consistent basis, It truly is mission impossible trying to break his thick skull enough to open the idea that he's actually wrong and full of !@#$.
[/quote]
Try reading my posts.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288921284' post='2502491']
lol, they were clearly searching for a CB. At least some people in #stratego were; many were just there to observe.

What I take exception to is the idea that they were trying to manufacture one. Finding a valid CB and trying to fabricate one are two very different things.
[/quote]

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289039644' post='2503845']
Ah, OK. My bad, I thought ODN was involved in that too.

The point still remains that this negotiation took place after the #stratego logs.


Blackstone leaked the CB to TORN hoping to produce exactly this situation.

Yes, it was a really dumb trap. It did work though.


Try reading my posts.
[/quote]


Okay what part of setting a dummy alliance up in the hope we raid it so they have a CB do you not understand? either your really thick or you are being this way intentionally. You have to be about the most horrible poster I have ever seen on here. You are flawed, your logic is flawed.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289040889' post='2503852']
Okay what part of setting a dummy alliance up in the hope we raid it so they have a CB do you not understand? either your really thick or you are being this way intentionally. You have to be about the most horrible poster I have ever seen on here. You are flawed, your logic if flawed.
[/quote]
The logs don't suggest the creation of a dummy alliance. They suggest finding a pre-existing small alliance that you guys are likely to raid and offering it a protectorate, then attacking you when you refuse to pay reps.

It's a dumb !@#$@#$ idea.

As far as I know, the only senior government member to go along with this idea is HeroofTime; IIRC he's the one who suggested it actually.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289041610' post='2503859']
The logs don't suggest the creation of a dummy alliance. They suggest finding a pre-existing small alliance that you guys are likely to raid and offering it a protectorate, then attacking you when you refuse to pay reps.

It's a dumb !@#$@#$ idea.

As far as I know, the only senior government member to go along with this idea is HeroofTime; IIRC he's the one who suggested it actually.
[/quote]


Now, I have pm's from one of the heads in that room that specifically states they want us ground to dust/gone, out the game and are willing to find any excuse to do this. by any means. So don't sit there and tell me otherwise, you know this, I know this. My only regret is that some of the alliances I hate wont touch these fools with a barge pole, smart move on their part.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289041822' post='2503864']
Now, I have pm's from one of the heads in that room that specifically states they want us ground to dust/gone, out the game and are willing to find any excuse to do this. by any means. So don't sit there and tell me otherwise, you know this, I know this. My only regret is that some of the alliances I hate wont touch these fools with a barge pole, smart move on their part.
[/quote]
Then attack that alliance.

Seriously. If you guys believed the stuff you're saying, you'd be at war.

That's why I think Schatt is your source; this whole affair has the feel of a PR stunt.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289042618' post='2503871']
Then attack that alliance.

Seriously. If you guys believed the stuff you're saying, you'd be at war.

That's why I think Schatt is your source; this whole affair has the feel of a PR stunt.
[/quote]


LOL, for real? Would you act upon every single idiots rants and fantasies? It would suit us for them to attack us. As it stands they are making themselves look terrible. I can't speak for GOONS but I'm certain they would view it of "why attack, let them come out into the open and do it". Because according to them we are facing a massive coalition. They hate us the onus is on them to attack us and do something about it.

And no Haflinger, you are wrong about it being a PR stunt between schattenman and GOONS. It's just worked out this way due to there terrible opsec and terrible leadership qualities. You are sounding more and more like Alterego.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289042964' post='2503875']
LOL, for real? Would you act upon every single idiots rants and fantasies? It would suit us for them to attack us. As it stands they are making themselves look terrible. I can't speak for GOONS but I'm certain they would view it of "why attack, let them come out into the open and do it". Because according to them we are facing a massive coalition. They hate us the onus is on them to attack us and do something about it.
[/quote]
When an alliance leader plots against my alliance and wants to see it destroyed, and I have evidence of that, then yes, war is justified.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289042964' post='2503875']
And no Haflinger, you are wrong about it being a PR stunt between schattenman and GOONS. It's just worked out this way due to there terrible opsec and terrible leadership qualities. You are sounding more and more like Alterego.
[/quote]
Schatt has done stuff like this for GOONS before though. Remember Browncoats?

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289046068' post='2503893']
When an alliance leader plots against my alliance and wants to see it destroyed, and I have evidence of that, then yes, war is justified.


Schatt has done stuff like this for GOONS before though. Remember Browncoats?
[/quote]

Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I wouldn't know about Browncoats, but it's relevance is not really important. What I said was he's not doing that in this instance. And did I say war would not be justified? Again that has relevance to what I said? It suits us for them to come into the open and attack us, they will garner even less help than they are getting now by doing so.

There really is no tin foil hat needed with this one Haflinger. It is not some stunt from them to give us good PR. They really want us "Ground to dust" to use the exact words of one of them.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289046538' post='2503897']
Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I wouldn't know about Browncoats, but it's relevance is not really important. What I said was he's not doing that in this instance. And did I say war would not be justified? Again that has relevance to what I said? It suits us for them to come into the open and attack us, they will garner even less help than they are getting now by doing so.
[/quote]
Well, as I said, it's only a suspicion. I don't have any evidence. Just a theory which happens to fit the facts.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289046538' post='2503897']
There really is no tin foil hat needed with this one Haflinger. It is not some stunt from them to give us good PR. They really want us "Ground to dust" to use the exact words of one of them.
[/quote]
Oh I have no doubt that there's at least one alliance leader in that boat. I read the logs too.

I'm just surprised at your sudden pacifism.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289047619' post='2503901']
Well, as I said, it's only a suspicion. I don't have any evidence. Just a theory which happens to fit the facts.


Oh I have no doubt that there's at least one alliance leader in that boat. I read the logs too.

I'm just surprised at your sudden pacifism.
[/quote]

I'm a pacifist by nature. And I hold no title within GOONS other than general annoyance and soldier. If it was my decision I would let them attack, it is the smart play.

[potato]

Your theory is wrong. I don't know about GOONS but the logs I saw weren't given to me by Shattenmanhattan.

[Biazt]

Haflinger is right. Schattenmann has been a double agent for GOONS for over 3 years now, and has been feeding us valuable intel throughout. From browncoats to the WCE incident, it's just another PR stunt Schattenmann concocted for us.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Biazt

[mythicknight]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288995122' post='2503181']
But hey, I wasn't there.
[/quote]

Neither was he, but out of the multitude of theories I've heard pop up from him, these ones are pretty amusing~. Then again, it's [i]Haffy[/i].

Edited November 6, 2010 by mythicknight

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289049664' post='2503921']
I'm a pacifist by nature. And I hold no title within GOONS other than general annoyance and soldier. If it was my decision I would let them attack, it is the smart play.
[/quote]
The "your" there was the plural form; I meant your alliance, not you individually.

Silly language

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1289058434' post='2503971']
Haflinger is right. Schattenmann has been a double agent for GOONS for over 3 years now, and has been feeding us valuable intel throughout. From browncoats to the WCE incident, it's just another PR stunt Schattenmann concocted for us.
[/quote]
Errr, you are aware that Schatt has posted that he was a double agent for GOONS from the time of the disbandment at least until joining Vox Populi, right?

It's hardly much of a stretch to imagine that he still is.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289063189' post='2504014']
The "your" there was the plural form; I meant your alliance, not you individually.

Silly language


Errr, you are aware that Schatt has posted that he was a double agent for GOONS from the time of the disbandment at least until joining Vox Populi, right?

It's hardly much of a stretch to imagine that he still is.
[/quote]

I will say the same to you as I said to one of the WCE heads in pm. Since joining GOONS I have been really impressed with how they handle themselves internally. The guys/ladies are not complete idiots, they do not just attack on a whim. They are competent individuals that I enjoy chatting to. Hardly the raving warmongering psychos that people try to portray them as.

You can either retort that with a similar comment like he made or be sensible and realise maybe, just maybe, they are not as bad as what people think they are. Of coarse you will argue otherwise, because you sit on the other side of the fence.

And seriously, you can stop with the theory about Shchattenman is still a spy for GOONS. In this case you are wrong and clutching for straw with this line of thought.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1289065720' post='2504042']
And seriously, you can stop with the theory about Shchattenman is still a spy for GOONS. In this case you are wrong and clutching for straw with this line of thought.
[/quote]
Well, if he's not, then you guys should probably give him a job, 'cause he's doing a better job for you than any of your other spies.

[SirWilliam]

Schatt works for us? [i]And[/i] we have other spies?

What the hell Sardonic and ktarthan, why wasn't I ever let in on this?