Pandora's Box

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286617315' post='2479562']
*sigh*

sneeep


So, given the events of the past year and a half, I'd say ODN's done everything possible to prove itself. If not, I’m open to suggestions on how to further prove ourselves. We haven't had the opportunity to fight a losing war, but to be blunt I have no intention of losing a war simply to prove a point, and neither does anyone else. People have to decide, given the circumstances, whether they are prepared to trust us based on our attempts to demonstrate our reform- and I think most people (short of the real nuts, Alterego) have come to realise we're a good ally.

I did *try* to avoid a discussion of ODN history, because it's totally irrelevant to this topic, and because I didn't want to give people the opportunity to have a go at us. But I refuse to lie down and have people take cheap shots at my alliance. To claim "we wouldn't know morals if we tripped over them while running from a fight" demonstrates tremendous ignorance about us. I think - I hope - it's simply a comment born out of bitterness because you missed an opportunity to attack someone you dislike.
[/quote]

I like a good hating on ODN thread as much as the next eX-Hedge, but the above rings true, I kept an eye on ODN in the last big tussle, they didn't shirk.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286618915' post='2479567']
This is the difference between people like me and you. You think words mean something and I think words are worthless and only actions matter. This "nut" would burn in a heartbeat for his alliance and allies.
[/quote]

As would I, and [ooc] I've done so before, under another name. [/ooc]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286618915' post='2479567']
Size of the opposition is totally irrelevant to me and people like me that you and others like you dismiss while you sit in backrooms and consider how to extract yourself from a war you might lose. UPN gave you a chance and you said no. You are a great ally when it comes to words but still a terrible ally when it comes to your actions.
[/quote]

I've explained earlier in this thread why we didn't fight for UPN. I actually put some thought into the post and I'm not going to repeat myself.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1286614516' post='2479547']
I think you're missing the point. We could have activated the mutual aggression clause of C&G before ODN or at least still managed to hit some of the parties involved in rolling GOONS, without violating CnG. However you did get it right that taking one of us means getting all of us.
[/quote]

Article II of C&G states..

[quote]Article II

We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one.
[/quote]

I assume ODN informed C&G of this possible war they might be entering, which would seem to directly put all of C&G firmly on the side against PB/GOONS going by article II.

In your scenairo (and once again assuming you knew ODN may be going to war) you would seem to either have to choose which treaty had a higher priority, C&G or GOONS MDoAP or you'd have to fight for both sides.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286613892' post='2479544']
Dont try to make out you were going out of your way to fight [in BiPolar].
[/quote]

Oh and for your interest we lost well over 50% of our NS in that war, *and* TOP maintains to this day that we were one of the toughest alliances they fought, besides MK. I think I already pointed this out too.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286607521' post='2479497']
I would think the MADP CnG bloc treaty that LOST and ODN share would override the MDoAP with GOONS. We've been informed many many times in the past that if one member of CnG wars either aggressively or defensively with someone, they all are at war with someone.
[/quote]
Hardly. UPN's actions would have resulted in the ODN needing to use a oA clause to help UPN out (Os clearly thought UPN had a !@#$ CB). As C&G operates as a unit, the bloc would have decided to help out GOONS. Aside from that, MK was still officially tied to both C&G, the ODN and GOONS at the time (cancellation had been given, but the treaties had not yet expired iirc), which would make it even less likely the ODN would support an attack on GOONS.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286618915' post='2479567']
This is the difference between people like me and you. You think words mean something and I think words are worthless and only actions matter. This "nut" would burn in a heartbeat for his alliance and allies. Size of the opposition is totally irrelevant to me and people like me that you and others like you dismiss while you sit in backrooms and consider how to extract yourself from a war you might lose. UPN gave you a chance and you said no. You are a great ally when it comes to words but still a terrible ally when it comes to your actions in times of peril.
[/quote]
The potential UPN-GOONS war was ridiculous. The ODN wouldn't have been bound to defend them any any case (see my previous post), they were saving UPN from their own stupidity and blind hatred of GOONS. UPN gave the ODN a chance to $%&@ over their C&G allies and force LOST and Athens to sever ties with their close links to GOONS, SF and PC - hardly the actions of a 'good' ally. A diplomatic solution was found.

If this was any alliance other than GOONS, no one would bat an eyelid at the ODN's actions.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]This is the difference between people like me and you. You think words mean something and I think words are worthless and only actions matter. This "nut" would burn in a heartbeat for his alliance and allies.[/quote]
And that's why you don't have any power left to influence anything – because you burnt it already. As with most silly arguments on these boards, the truth lies somewhere in between: actions are important, yes, but actions are very costly and need to be used sparingly. Words, when those words have the implicit threat of possible action behind them, mean nearly as much and cost much less. And once you've spent all your NS with ill-judged action, neither your actions nor your words mean anything any more.

[Vol Navy]

So the logs posted by Sardonic that ODN was "in with UPN" were not true?

Because even if ODN uses oA to enter, article II from C&G seems pretty cut and dry. Once again, provided ODN was truly going to enter the war as was reported.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286622452' post='2479586']
So the logs posted by Sardonic that ODN was "in with UPN" were not true?

Because even if ODN uses oA to enter, article II from C&G seems pretty cut and dry. Once again, provided ODN was truly going to enter the war as was reported.
[/quote]
Uh, the ODN was helping UPN, and they would object to any offensive actions by GOONS. But what is going on is clearly UPN searching for some sort of CB, and going in as the aggressor (see: Sardonic's lovely log summaries), which would mean UPN's treaty isn't binding on them. The only person who thought the ODN was going to to fight for UPN's side seems to be that Deggerz person from Nemesis (how on earth he got into gov...).

But I'm sure that the ODN would use a oA to attack their MADP partner's ally despite thinking the CB was !@#$!

[Vol Navy]

I was just going by the assumption that the coalition was legitimate as Sardonic seemed to believe. There were quite a few ties to C&G in there on the "in" side of things. IAA is tied to 3 C&G members for instance, NpO, STA etc, with ODN, a member of C&G on the in list as well. Had it actually happened I would think the presence of ODN would have caused C&G to join that coalition rather than honor non-C&G treaties as it would seem that C&G over rides all other treaties.

Of course maybe Daggerz was way off. It would have certainly been interesting to see how things would have played out if the situation would have escalated.

One of these events finally will at some point.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1286622408' post='2479585']
And that's why you don't have any power left to influence anything – because you burnt it already. As with most silly arguments on these boards, the truth lies somewhere in between: actions are important, yes, but actions are very costly and need to be used sparingly. Words, when those words have the implicit threat of possible action behind them, mean nearly as much and cost much less. And once you've spent all your NS with ill-judged action, neither your actions nor your words mean anything any more.
[/quote]
I never had any power to influence anyone. Tell me does moral code flip flopping damage the repuatation of people who actually take themselves seriously?

Edited October 9, 2010 by Alterego

[Banksy]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286624909' post='2479594']
I was just going by the assumption that the coalition was legitimate as Sardonic seemed to believe. There were quite a few ties to C&G in there on the "in" side of things. IAA is tied to 3 C&G members for instance, NpO, STA etc, with ODN, a member of C&G on the in list as well. Had it actually happened I would think the presence of ODN would have caused C&G to join that coalition rather than honor non-C&G treaties as it would seem that C&G over rides all other treaties.

Of course maybe Daggerz was way off. It would have certainly been interesting to see how things would have played out if the situation would have escalated.

One of these events finally will at some point.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure Sardonic posted those logs ironically. I don't think you've seen the full set of logs, daggerz is clearly off his rocker and has no clue about what was going on.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286625552' post='2479595']
I never had any power to influence anyone. Tell me does moral code flip flopping damage the repuatation of people who actually take themselves seriously?
[/quote]

Frankly, if my explanation above is not sufficient to persuade you about ODN’s motivations and actions and reform since early 2009, then nothing ever will. If you had a real interest in what I had to say, I’d expect questions or intelligent criticism, neither of which have been forthcoming. At least I can say I’ve tried now, though.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1286559432' post='2478950']
There's a difference between going rogue and accidentally raiding someone in an alliance. A rogue will do 7 days of maximum damage, a mistake raid will do 2 or 4 GAs. The damage probably is 15 times different. I would always demand $3m but [b]if UPN agreed to $1m[/b], which probably more than covers the damage, then there is really no issue there.
[/quote]
UPN didn't.

That much should be obvious by now.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1286559432' post='2478950']
Actually I'm not really sure why we're talking about rogues since the nations in question seem to be from a micro-alliance in an alliance war with GOONS. The problem there seems to be that they're not being offered, or not taking, individual surrender terms prior to trying to join UPN.
[/quote]
The reason is because GOONS does not recognize the existence of the micro-alliance and prefers to call them rogues, presumably to facilitate their usage of sanctions.

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1286565193' post='2479025']
That's probably wrong to call BAPS a 'maybe' in the coalition, but if that conflict DID develop into a world-conflict, and all your allies in Valhalla, Invicta, Olympus and Nebula-X all joined/chained in on UPN's side... would you really be willing to become essentially what you hate about UPN and stay out? My guess is no.
[/quote]
Out of respect for us, please, don't drag this bit of drama out here.

BAPS are terrific allies, among the best an alliance could have.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286617315' post='2479562']
*sigh*

Sunstar actually wanted to side with IRON in Karma. It's a little known fact but it's true.
[/quote]
Yes, this is true, I can confirm.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286617315' post='2479562']
The thing is, Arsenal became more active in the ODN in about January 2009, and was appointed Deputy Secretary of State. From there he started ODN's move towards C&G, quite early on. There are records of this in our state archives, if you need proof. This was not out of cowardice. I remind everyone that in early 2009, the world was still largely dominated by NPO. iirc Polar was only coming out of terms at that point. Arsenal's motivations were simple - he hated the hegemony, particularly NPO, and wanted to see us move away from them. Then, in about March, he was appointed Secretary of State, where he had a lot more influence. There was a strong push to get closer to MK.
[/quote]
Arsenal wanted freedom for FAN.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286617315' post='2479562']
During his time as SoS, he also managed to piss off IRON, with the International/IRON/VE incident.
[/quote]
lolwut

IRON backed ODN to the hilt during the International incident. They and NPO sided with ODN, which ticked off VE and led to the cancellation of the VE MADPs with IRON and NPO.

Actually ODN pretty much cancelled on everyone who backed them during the International incident during Karma to side with the people they recruited us to fight.

This is the reason why Sunstar wanted to support IRON in Karma.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286626421' post='2479599']
Frankly, if my explanation above is not sufficient to persuade you about ODN’s motivations and actions and reform since early 2009, then nothing ever will. If you had a real interest in what I had to say, I’d expect questions or intelligent criticism, neither of which have been forthcoming. At least I can say I’ve tried now, though.
[/quote]
I was talking about Honest Bob not ODN.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Alterego

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286613892' post='2479544']
[b]
Bi-Polar war:[/b] Its hard to walk away when a group of powerful alliances ran at you and continued coming at you. You were cornered and had nowhere to run so you had to fight. Dont try to make out you were going out of your way to fight.

[b]Karma war: [/b]You ditched allies on the smaller side to fight with allies on the bigger side. I love the bolded line, you weren't placed on alternate sides. You saw the sides then picked the bigger side.
[/quote]
Your bias is showing Alterego, we wanted to fight in the TOP-CNG conflict! having lived with the shame of being ''optional'' we went to fight willingly, so I am telling you yes we wanted to fight in that war.

Karma, Some of us in govt at the time choose the side we wanted in Karma not all of us were agreement with the post-Walkerninja attachment to certain alliances...some of us were in full agreement with Karma's aim and worked behind the scenes to ensure ODN came down on the right side, you may choose to see it as saving pixels but personally put my pixels on the line for that choice which was made out of conviction and belief in what Karma claimed to be fighting for.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Cataduanes

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286626606' post='2479602']
Arsenal wanted freedom for FAN.
[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge (and I'm quite open to correction here, I could be wrong), ODN was never at war with FAN. We did fight Vox though. I happen to know Arsenal very well, and he genuinely likes C&G. ODN's move toward C&G had nothing to do with FAN.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286626606' post='2479602']
IRON backed ODN to the hilt during the International incident. They and NPO sided with ODN, which ticked off VE and led to the cancellation of the VE MADPs with IRON and NPO.
[/quote]

I know, but that was around the start of Arsenal's interaction with them, and they didn't get on very well. Later on, he was often frustrated with IRON's perceived attempts to mess around with ODN's movements.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286627465' post='2479610']
To the best of my knowledge (and I'm quite open to correction here, I could be wrong), ODN was never at war with FAN. We did fight Vox though. I happen to know Arsenal very well, and he genuinely likes C&G. ODN's move toward C&G had nothing to do with FAN.
[/quote]
Arsenal wanted ODN on the pro-FAN side in Karma. He told me that directly; his dislike of NPO was because of his friends in FAN.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286627465' post='2479610']
I know, but that was around the start of Arsenal's interaction with them, and they didn't get on very well. Later on, he was often frustrated with IRON's perceived attempts to mess around with ODN's movements.
[/quote]
Yes, I am aware that IRON can sometimes take actions which are not exactly recommended. That doesn't justify him selling out the rest of us.

It also doesn't justify some of the other idiotic moves which Arsenal pulled pre-Karma which led to basically pushing all of Purple into the Hegemony.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286626606' post='2479602']
UPN didn't.

That much should be obvious by now.
[/quote]
Oh hello
[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1286565590' post='2479033']
Allow me to clarify this.

On the 6th I finally got to talk to Avocado (the person who attacked the UPN member by mistake). The attack was the result of a 6-day-old member reading an ancient thread that pegged the person as a ghost. It was long inaccurate but he didn't read the date it was posted. That said, it was still a mistake by GOONS, so I tried to rectify the situation with Peggy.

<Beefspari[GOONS]> Hey Peggy, did Warlord talk to you/
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> no
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Hang on a sec. I talked to Pangui and Warlord. Was waiting for you to log on.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> About the 1m thing
<Beefspari[GOONS]> I finally got to talk to Avocado
<Beefspari[GOONS]> I was trying to track down whoever told him to send 1m by talking to his company leader
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Avocado is kind of an idiot, only been playing for 6 days.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Anyway,
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:56:45 PM] <Beefspari> Who was it that told you to send 1m?
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:03 PM] <Avocadoes> To the nation I attacked acciently?
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:08 PM] <Beefspari> Yes
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:21 PM] <Avocadoes> Yeah. Well he asked me for 1M
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:58:32 PM] <Avocadoes> let me find it it'll be a minute
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:59:26 PM] <Avocadoes> OK, I send him the apology message about the attack then he sent me this
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:59:27 PM] <Avocadoes> Message: please send your condolences in the means of one million to rebuild my economy ever so crushed, and to reparate, as i don't have even enough to pay bills.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:18 PM] <Beefspari> But can I have his name please? =p
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:40 PM] <Avocadoes> Charizard
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:42 PM] <Avocadoes> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=401396
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:02:29 PM] <Beefspari> Thanks.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:05:25 PM] <Avocadoes> The guy was understanding and even requested adding me as a buddy, so I assume everything was OK on his end.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> The guy who actually got hit was the one that asked for 1m.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Avocado should've confirmed it with someone, and he knows better now, but there's that.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> If you need something else to consider the situation resolved let me know.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> He took a screenshot too.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2082/74509753.jpg

Peggy never responded, so I sent her a message the following day, on the 7th.

<Beefspari[GOONS]> Peggy, did you get my message last night about the 1m thing?
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> yes
<Beefspari[GOONS]> As I said if there's anything else you need to consider the situation resolved let us know, otherwise the guy who got attacked seems satisfied with the conclusion.
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> our nation should also have confirmed it with someone and he, as Avocado, hopefully knows better now
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> UPN is not satisfied with the outcome, but OsRavan and Sardonic did their own deal
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Well what would you have wanted to consider the accidental attack resolved?
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> I'd research the amount GOONs demanded from a similar situation and I'd ask the same
<Beefspari[GOONS]> We tend to just ask for damages or a flat 3m if it's not that big a deal.

The logs clearly show that A) it was the UPN member who was hit that requested the 1m, B) said UPN member is happy with the conclusion and accepted the peace willingly, and C) Avocado and the UPN guy are even friends now. Furthermore, I presented the information to Peggy twice, and offered additional compensation if she was not satisfied. I was ignored twice.

Now given the fact that Peggy has the facts and that the person who was attacked is completely satisfied, I don't see how there's anything left to argue. If UPN or anyone else (like Schat) tries to keep pushing this issue, they're reaching. The problem was resolved to the satisfaction of those involved, and even so compensation was offered numerous times. There's nothing left for GOONS to do on our end, and bringing this up again would be digging up an already resolved issue. This incident is closed.
[/quote]

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286628436' post='2479613']
Arsenal wanted ODN on the pro-FAN side in Karma. He told me that directly; his dislike of NPO was because of his friends in FAN.
[/quote]

I know he liked (and likes) FAN, and that was his part of his motivation for getting on the right side of Karma. But ODN's direction from there was another matter - there's a difference between disliking NPO, and wanting your alliance away from them, and getting your alliance close to C&G.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286628436' post='2479613']
Yes, I am aware that IRON can sometimes take actions which are not exactly recommended. That doesn't justify him selling out the rest of us.

It also doesn't justify some of the other idiotic moves which Arsenal pulled pre-Karma which led to basically pushing all of Purple into the Hegemony.
[/quote]

Arsenal could not have seen ODN on NPO's side in Karma. He just could not. He hated them. I don't think you really understand that. He also disliked IRON and TPF and a bunch of other hegemony alliances. I think he also believed in Karma values (there's a difference between believing in what Karma stood for and being a moralist. He's the former.)

And as NPO's closest ally, I'm a little surprised to hear that you're pissed off at being pushed into their camp.

Edit: clarity.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Kalasin

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286628896' post='2479616']
I know he liked (and likes) FAN, and that was his part of his motivation for getting on the right side of Karma. But ODN's direction from there was another matter - there's a difference between disliking NPO, and wanting your alliance away from them, and getting your alliance close to C&G.
[/quote]
Yep, true.

The logs I've seen suggested he saw C&G as the best choice for his political goals.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286628896' post='2479616']
Arsenal could not have seen ODN on NPO's side in Karma. He just could not. He hated them. I don't think you really understand that. He also disliked IRON and TPF and a bunch of other hegemony alliances. I think he also believed in Karma values (there's a difference between believing in what Karma stood for and being a moralist. He's the former.)
[/quote]
No, I understand that. I was just saying the reason why.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286628896' post='2479616']
And as NPO's closest ally, I'm a little surprised to hear that you're pissed off at being pushed into their camp.
[/quote]
We are, arguably, NPO's closest ally now. Although you should always put TPF in there as well. When Arsenal was trying to get ODN divorced from IRON, we weren't. Really weren't. I had to filter all our comms with NPO to prevent drama from our people talking to the wrong IO.

NPO has changed a whole lot since Karma. We supported them before Karma because of the Revenge Doctrine, and really for no other reason. (Well, they'd been loyal allies for us as well.) Post-Karma, they have Cortath in charge, and he's much more our kind of person.

ODN rejected the dream of an equivalent to the Revenge Doctrine for Orange because Arsenal wanted revenge against NPO. That dream was largely why the ODN-Invicta relationship had been strong. Abandoning it is why the relationship collapsed.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286629862' post='2479624']
The logs I've seen suggested he saw C&G as the best choice for his political goals.
[/quote]

The R&R logs? There's a bit more to it, but I can't really say, so you'll just have to trust me. But honestly, if he hadn't genuinely liked C&G, he wouldn't have got us close to them.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286629862' post='2479624']
We are, arguably, NPO's closest ally now. Although you should always put TPF in there as well. When Arsenal was trying to get ODN divorced from IRON, we weren't. Really weren't. I had to filter all our comms with NPO to prevent drama from our people talking to the wrong IO.

NPO has changed a whole lot since Karma. We supported them before Karma because of the Revenge Doctrine, and really for no other reason. (Well, they'd been loyal allies for us as well.) Post-Karma, they have Cortath in charge, and he's much more our kind of person.

ODN rejected the dream of an equivalent to the Revenge Doctrine for Orange because Arsenal wanted revenge against NPO. That dream was largely why the ODN-Invicta relationship had been strong. Abandoning it is why the relationship collapsed.
[/quote]

I'll PM you.... or not, I don't think you can receive any new messages.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Kalasin

[Meer Republic]

I thought NoR and Nemesis were particularly classy what with the way they were discussing how to manipulate NOIR in their plot against their bloc mates.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Meer Republic' timestamp='1286631556' post='2479637']
I thought NoR and Nemesis were particularly classy what with the way they were discussing how to manipulate NOIR in their plot against their bloc mates.
[/quote]

Manipulation of and conspiring against other parties isn't classless, oh no, it's the tech-raiding and occasional mistakes (as well as a single, grossly misunderstood and misrepresented war) that is!

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Meer Republic' timestamp='1286631556' post='2479637']
I thought NoR and Nemesis were particularly classy what with the way they were discussing how to manipulate NOIR in their plot against their bloc mates.
[/quote]

Just another one of those sphere treaties misused for political gain.