Protection Rescinded

[Aurion]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1285709876' post='2467207']
I'm pointing out that you can't escalate a fight against an army with a squad. It just doesn't work.
[/quote]

I think you have things you actually [i]can't[/i] do and things it's merely stupid to do mixed up.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Aurion

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1285709876' post='2467207']
I'm pointing out that you can't escalate a fight against an army with a squad. It just doesn't work.
[/quote]
The origin of the conflict was not a GOONS-wide measure. It was a nation (or possibly two or three) on a tech raid. The "escalation" refers to the fact that USSR nations not involved in the tech raids attacked GOONS nations not involved in the tech raids. Whether or not they understood the "rules" that go along with tech raiding, they took a small conflict and made it larger. Hence: escalation.

[Dexomega]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285709960' post='2467209']
I think you have things you actually [i]can't[/i] do and things it's merely stupid to do mixed up.
[/quote]

You know, I see what you did there.

Now go away.

</3

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285710077' post='2467211']
The origin of the conflict was not a GOONS-wide measure. It was a nation (or possibly two or three) on a tech raid. The "escalation" refers to the fact that USSR nations not involved in the tech raids attacked GOONS nations not involved in the tech raids. Whether or not they understood the "rules" that go along with tech raiding, they took a small conflict and made it larger. Hence: escalation.
[/quote]

If it helps GOONS sleep at night. They tried to protect their interests. Aside from that most Tech Raiders have a horrible track record at even letting their targets know what in the name of god a Tech Raid is.

I'm pretty biased on this point since I created a nation, built myself up a bit, came out of peace mode, and was attack by a tech raider whom didn't even let me know what a "Tech Raid" was. For that, my original nation died off within a week and I came back another week or so later to make this one.

Tech Raiding is a recruit killer, it nearly made me walk away. Drop the act GOONS.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Dexomega

[Aurion]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1285710716' post='2467217']
You know, I see what you did there.
[/quote]

Mix-ups happen all the time. I'm always glad to help someone when they have one.

[quote]
Now go away.

</3
[/quote]

And why would I want to do that?

Edited September 28, 2010 by Aurion

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1285692802' post='2466931']
Man, it only seems like yesterday that people got outraged over stuff that was actually worth it.

I look forward to at least twenty five pages of bickering by idiots trying to act like intellectuals, the terms "sovereignty", "straw man", "ad hominem" and "valid" being used hundreds of times by people trying really hard to sound like they know what their talking about, thousands of responses unrelated to the posts they quoted, and of course a large helping of irrational hate.
[/quote]

Preach it brother. I sometimes wonder why I even bother reading these "debates"

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1285710716' post='2467217']
If it helps GOONS sleep at night. They tried to protect their interests. Aside from that most Tech Raiders have a horrible track record at even letting their targets know what in the name of god a Tech Raid is.

I'm pretty biased on this point since I created a nation, built myself up a bit, came out of peace mode, and was attack by a tech raider whom didn't even let me know what a "Tech Raid" was. For that, my original nation died off within a week and I came back another week or so later to make this one.

Tech Raiding is a recruit killer, it nearly made me walk away from this game. Drop the act GOONS.
[/quote]
I don't fault USSR for doing what they did; I am simply saying that they did escalate the situation. You could also say that GOONS escalated the situation by beginning the tech raids, and you'd be right. I'm not attaching any moral values to this - "escalate" is just a descriptive term.

Also, as in any situation where people cite anecdotal evidence of tech raids driving people from Bob, I will simply refer you to the quote in my sig.

Edited September 28, 2010 by ktarthan

[CEverettKoop]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1285710716' post='2467217']
Tech Raiding is a recruit killer, it nearly made me walk away. Drop the act GOONS.
[/quote]

The world is cold. Bundle up.

[Ceptyr]

I'm sure each side has their own version of events. Regardless, it's always unfortunate when a small micro-AA dies, but to be fair, it does happen a lot. All responsible citizens should do what they can to help them grow and succeed.

But for the sake of argument, I believe this should be taken as a lesson. By offering protection to an alliance, you should have open lines of communication. If you are protecting a new alliance, you should make sure they know to contact you in case of diplomatic disputes (ie, a raid). If they don't know any better and take matters into their own hands, they will get into trouble, which could put your own alliance in a bad spot.

[s]If they retaliated without giving diplomacy a chance, thats their fault.[/s] You can smack GOONS all you want for being mean and heartless, [s]but there is an established way to deal with issues like this, and it is everyone's job to try to make everyone else aware of it. [/s]

That said, I disagree with tech raiding, but I accept that it is part of life. Tech raiding has always been around, and I'm sure it is no worse now than it was in the past. The only difference is that there are fewer new nations joining us, so perhaps the negative effect of tech raiding is becoming more obvious.

Edited for clarity.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Ceptyr

[Haquertal]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1285713460' post='2467263']
The world is cold. Bundle up.
[/quote]

The world is small, nasty, and complicated. Everyone dies alone.

[quote name='Ceptyr' timestamp='1285713781' post='2467269']
If they retaliated without giving diplomacy a chance, thats their fault. You can smack GOONS all you want for being mean and heartless, but there is an established way to deal with issues like this, and it is everyone's job to try to make everyone else aware of it.
[/quote]

Just stating that this reads as if they were under protection during the original tech raids, which isn't the case (you can clear this up if you'd like ).

[Ceptyr]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285714725' post='2467284']
Just stating that this reads as if they were under protection during the original tech raids, which isn't the case (you can clear this up if you'd like ).
[/quote]
You are right, my mistake. I'll edit it above to reflect that

[wickedj]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285708374' post='2467176']
I don't know about Athens, but in CoJ when we change an official policy that effects everyone else--like a protectorate--we announce it for their benefit.
[/quote]
Dont play dumb, this threads purpose was to bash the GOONS and this coming from someone who has no respect for GOONS at all..come on you're above this

also no, we didnt announce the disbandment and merger of a protectorate maybe if you bug GM enough hell do it

[Subtleknifewielder]

So this is what the majority of GOONS and their lackeys resort to when they run out of 'logical' arguments....mocking, insults...and ooh, my favorite, digging up the mistakes of more than two years ago in a smear attempt.

Of course, one would expect nothing less from someone with such a large ego and nothing else to fill it with other than hot air. It's a wonder you can keep your feet on the ground...

Hate us, love us, the fact is this micro-alliance disappeared in at least part due to your own bullying tactics. Or if not deliberate bullying in this case, then incompetence.

[Chairman Meow]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285706660' post='2467136']
As a U.S.S.R. refugee, Alex was unaware of our policies on raiding. Unlike GOONS nations, he has never since violated policy again.
[/quote]

Alexander's nation disappeared from the face of Bob only a few days after the raid. Your claim that he never violated your raiding policy again, while 100% correct, is hardly boastworth.

I have to admit that I find your admission that no-one in CoJ could be bothered to inform Alexander of your raiding policy is surprising. I would have thought that people who make so much noise about the evils of raiding would at least make some effort to make sure that their new members were informed of the policy and agreed to it. Obviously not.

Given the neglect which CoJ showed to Alexander, I'm not surprised the other members of U.S.S.R. drifted off into the night.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285706660' post='2467136']
...and the nation in question still exists: http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=410195
[/quote]

But the alliance does not. Do you accept CoJ's role in its destruction? Did you pay Gabryal reparations?

Edited September 28, 2010 by Chairman Meow

[jer]

Don't complain, ne'er-do-well members of GOONs, when the ungentlemanly conduct such as that which you are apparently only too ready to show, and even show off, comes back to haunt thee one day.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285710077' post='2467211']
The origin of the conflict was not a GOONS-wide measure. It was a nation (or possibly two or three) on a tech raid. The "escalation" refers to the fact that USSR nations not involved in the tech raids attacked GOONS nations not involved in the tech raids. Whether or not they understood the "rules" that go along with tech raiding, they took a small conflict and made it larger. Hence: escalation.
[/quote]So USSR were dirty because they defended themselves, because in doing so they [i]escalated[/i] the fight rather than just bend over and take it from GOONS. Shame on USSR for defending themselves with all available resources, against GOONS' government sanctioned mass attack on Red, inclusive of USSR. People need to learn to be well-behaved tech raid victims.



I expect that if I attack any nation in GOONS and claim it was a tech raid, and then refuse to pay you reps and demand that you come to my forums and draw pretty pictures to get peace, that 'uninvolved' GOONS nations would not only counter-attack me, but the rest of my alliance as well. The question then becomes, why is GOONS subject to different standards then the rest of the world?

[SirWilliam]

CoJ protection killed U.S.S.R.... And [i]we[/i] are the monsters!?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Chairman Meow' timestamp='1285716993' post='2467326']
Alexander's nation disappeared from the face of Bob only a few days after the raid. Your claim that he never violated your raiding policy again, while 100% correct, is hardly boastworth. [/quote]
[quote name='Chairman Meow' timestamp='1285716993' post='2467326']
Alexander's nation disappeared from the face of Bob only a few days after the raid. Your claim that he never violated your raiding policy again, while 100% correct, is hardly boastworth.
[/quote]
Hey stupid, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat: http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=417538 Alexander Rococo and the nation of Caprios never disappeared from anywhere; he re-rolled. There he is, plain as day.

How does a person presume to debate me when they can't keep track of which nations exist and which don't? And I bet you thought you were so clever, aw, tut tut.

As to the rest, reps were sent to Gabryal, and Alex has never again screwed up. Meanwhile, I've demonstrated that GOONS's system of "punishment" has no effect on its bad raids. I don't really know what you're trying to get at.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Methos]

Clearly petty name calling will further illustrate your point. Tell me more. Maybe you could use all caps as well, for added effect.

[Chairman Meow]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285721984' post='2467432']
Hey stupid, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat: http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=417538 Alexander Rococo and the nation of Caprios never disappeared from anywhere; he re-rolled. There he is, plain as day.

How does a person presume to debate me when they can't keep track of which nations exist and which don't? And I bet you thought you were so clever, aw, tut tut.
[/quote]

I stated that Alexander's nation disappeared a few days after his raiding began. Here it is http://www.cybernations.net/failed_noexist.asp?ID=369686. It is no longer there. It disappeared. Name calling and bluster doesn't change that.

It's great that Alexander has kept his nose clean in the short time he's returned to Bob. I'm sure that with support and encouragement he'll be as much an asset to CoJ as he was to U.S.S.R.

[quote]
Meanwhile, I've demonstrated that GOONS's system of "punishment" has no effect on its bad raids.
[/quote]

You really haven't. All that you've proven is that after U.S.S.R. was taken under CoJ protection, it withered and died, and that CoJ does not provide adequate training to it's new members.

[Augustus Autumn]

We've seen this argument before in another discussion thread - both sides have done nothing to change their points, their methods or their aims. I don't understand why the need exists to attempt to shove the argument's form into a new shape.

[Captain Flinders]

Terribly unfortunate to hear.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Methos' timestamp='1285722624' post='2467451']
Clearly petty name calling will further illustrate your point. Tell me more. Maybe you could use all caps as well, for added effect.
[/quote]

You sort of deserved it, being uneducated on what you speak about and everything.

[Methos]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1285724156' post='2467485']
You sort of deserved it, being uneducated on what you speak about and everything.
[/quote]

Well, the comment wasn't aimed at me, I don't think, since I hadn't previously posted in the thread. It was still unnecessary, and unjustified, as Chairman Meow illustrated.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1285723824' post='2467477']
We've seen this argument before in another discussion thread - both sides have done nothing to change their points, their methods or their aims. I don't understand why the need exists to attempt to shove the argument's form into a new shape.
[/quote]

This thread doesn't seem to be about making a new argument, but providing more evidence in support of an old argument. The evidence clearly supports one side, and that side has been staking on evidence continuously for quite some time now, whereas the other side's evidence is scant to non-existent. The only side that should be changing its arguments is the side with the evidence against it. The other side is continually proving itself right and thus has no need to change anything.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1285716602' post='2467317']
So this is what [s]the majority of GOONS[/s] Schattenmann and [s]their[/s] his lackeys resort to when [s]they[/s] he runs out of 'logical' arguments....mocking, insults...and ooh, my favorite, digging up the mistakes of more than two [s]years[/s] months ago in a smear attempt.

Of course, one would expect nothing less from someone with such a large ego and nothing else to fill it with other than hot air. It's a wonder you can keep your feet on the ground...[/quote]

There, fixed that for you.