GOON spy orders

[Jasmines Jewels]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1285419782' post='2464231']These current round of wars have no CB, are nuclear, you could say the [u][i]entire alliance[/i][/u] has gone rogue. Why no sanction, NPO?[/quote]
When did the planet start using sanctions in alliance wars?

[citizenkane]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' timestamp='1285420218' post='2464238']
When did the planet start using sanctions in alliance wars?
[/quote]

The alliance is simply a group of people with grievances against raiding alliances (namely GOONS) because you (NPO) have allowed them to prosper without sanction.

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' timestamp='1285420218' post='2464238']
When did the planet start using sanctions in alliance wars?
[/quote]

It's not an alliance war since we don't recognise them as such, they're just 5 crazy people who don't like us.

Frankly I think GOONS are doing an excellent job keeping the attention of these people away from the larger population of Planet Bob. I dread to think what would happen if these clearly unstable individuals did not have us to direct their aggression towards.

[Jasmines Jewels]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1285420295' post='2464239']The alliance is simply a group of people with grievances against raiding alliances (namely GOONS) because you (NPO) have allowed them to prosper without sanction.[/quote]
It's is not us (NPO) that is allowing them to prosper. A nation can prosper off of no trades and sheer will just to piss somebody off. What others have failed to get a grasp of is that Red is not dictated by NPO alone. Perhaps everyone just cannot wrap their head around the fact that we are a signatory of Red Dawn and do not treat it like a play toy but actually work with the other signatories and alliances and allow them to take the lead in things.

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1285420580' post='2464240']It's not an alliance war since we don't recognise them as such, they're just 5 crazy people who don't like us.

Frankly I think GOONS are doing an excellent job keeping the attention of these people away from the larger population of Planet Bob. I dread to think what would happen if these clearly unstable individuals did not have us to direct their aggression towards.[/quote]

Yes, GOONS charter does not recognize these nations as an alliance just like GOONS did not want to recognize that Red Dawn holds a lot of interest in protecting our economic sphere. Since when did the Red Dawn signatories have to care about everything GOONS wants or recognizes and when did we have to agree with it?

Edited.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Jasmines Jewels

[Timmmehhh]

I don't know about Methrage, but JimKongIl is by all definitions of the game a nuclear rogue. He aided (Methrage) an enemy of GOONS ( http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676&hl=goons&st= ) When that provocation didn't got enough attention he decided to DOW GOONS. He even stated himself that he regret that he didn't DOW'ed more alliances after he was nuked. This is a 100% nuclear rogue and it disappoints me that NPO and Red Dawn seems to allow these rogue's to prosper on their sphere.

In the past alliances have helped NPO sanctioning the rogue's who hit them. Recently Salmacis ( http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=201168 ) went rogue on NPO and got sanctions on all colors (black, aqua and orange included). These colors helped you sanctioning your rogue but you won't return the favor, when the alliances on those colors have a similar request? Do you understand our frustration? I hope you understand it and still decide to sanction him.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Timmehhh

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285421030' post='2464243']
I don't know about Methrage, but JimKongIl is by all definitions of the game a nuclear rogue. He aided (Methrage) an enemy of GOONS ( [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676&hl=goons&st="]http://forums.cybern...76&hl=goons&st=[/url] ) and in the end he decided to DOW GOONS. He even stated himself that he regret that he didn't DOW'ed more alliances after he was nuked.
[/quote]

GOONS has ordered spy attacks upon him. I believe he has a valid CB to declare war.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Jasmines Jewels' timestamp='1285420916' post='2464242']
It's is not us (NPO) that is allowing them to prosper. A nation can prosper off of no trades and sheer will just to piss somebody off. What others have failed to get a grasp of is that Red is not dictated by NPO alone. Perhaps everyone just cannot wrap their head around the fact that we are a signatory of Red Dawn and do not treat it like a play toy but actually work with the other signatories and alliances and allow them to take the lead in things.
[/quote]

Actually, the only significant alliance on red is NPO. There's Invicta too, to be fair, but they'll basically do what you want (and I don't even hate them for it, they're just really good allies and you're lucky to have them.) Cult of Justitia are too small to have any real influence, and half of Biff Webster's votes are from NPO anyway. The only reason you're playing nice with Red Dawn is for the PR, same with the red senate thing, you don't consider them real friends. Schattenmann, best buddies with NPO? Please. I can't really think of anyone else on red (that's your fault, by the way, it's the result of the Revenge and Moldavi Doctrines, which red has never recovered from), but I suppose there's TMF, who are also very irrelevant. I challenge you to name a single time that any of the other alliances in Red Dawn have "taken the lead in things".

[eyriq]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285421030' post='2464243']
I don't know about Methrage, but JimKongIl is by all definitions of the game a nuclear rogue. He aided (Methrage) an enemy of GOONS ( http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676&hl=goons&st= ) and in the end he decided to DOW GOONS. He even stated himself that he regret that he didn't DOW'ed more alliances after he was nuked.
[/quote]

That simply implies that he is in a state of war against GOONS & Friends. His choice of aiding Methrage joined their causes as one.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1285421581' post='2464248']
That simply implies that he is in a state of war against GOONS & Friends. His choice of aiding Methrage joined their causes as one.
[/quote]
Every rogue is in "a state of war" against the ones they are fighting. He is a still rogue though.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285421222' post='2464244']
GOONS has ordered spy attacks upon him. I believe he has a valid CB to declare war.
[/quote]
After JimKongII decided to aid another rogue (Methrage). Normally that's reason enough to DOW, but GOONS just spied on him.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285422053' post='2464252']
Every rogue is in "a state of war" against the ones they are fighting. He is a still rogue though.
[/quote]

Not going to argue your definition of a rogue, only that it appears that NPO does not define Methrage as a rogue and so by Jim joining his cause they wouldn't identify him as a rogue either.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285421251' post='2464246']
Actually, the only significant alliance on red is NPO.
[/quote]
They are the biggest, and only sanctioned alliance, yes.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285421251' post='2464246']
There's Invicta too, to be fair, but they'll basically do what you want (and I don't even hate them for it, they're just really good allies and you're lucky to have them.)
[/quote]
lol. No, we won't. Thanks for saying we're good allies though

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285421251' post='2464246']
Cult of Justitia are too small to have any real influence, and half of Biff Webster's votes are from NPO anyway.
[/quote]
They have influence out of proportion to their size. Frankly. Yes, Biff has more votes than CoJ has members, but that's because the sphere trusts him to make good decisions.

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285422296' post='2464256']
After JimKongII decided to aid another rogue (Methrage). Normally that's reason enough to DOW, but GOONS just spied on him.
[/quote]
Yes, it's well established that Jim aided Methrage, and this led to his being at war with GOONS and company. The whole argument turns over whether Methrage is a rogue, as you seem to think, or if he's just a rather strange alliance leader who declared war on GOONS, which is what I think.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285423055' post='2464265']
lol. No, we won't. Thanks for saying we're good allies though
[/quote]

It wasn't meant to insult you guys (I actually really like Invicta for some strange reason) but rather I meant that as such close allies, your interests are very similar, and thus you won't do !@#$ NPO dislikes. I don't mean you're puppets- I think the Invicta/IAA treaty from a while ago demonstrates that you aren't *that* bad.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285423055' post='2464265']
They have influence out of proportion to their size. Frankly. Yes, Biff has more votes than CoJ has members, but that's because the sphere trusts him to make good decisions.
[/quote]

There's a difference between votes and influence.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1285423047' post='2464264']
Not going to argue your definition of a rogue, only that it appears that NPO does not define Methrage as a rogue and so by Jim joining his cause they wouldn't identify him as a rogue either.
[/quote]
Jim doesn't hold any treaties with Methrage. And he only joined Methrage his aa 2 days after he DOW'ed GOONS. He even carried the aa "Monster" sounds like a typical rogue AA to me.
Methrage actions are questionably to say the least, I think would also consider him a rogue but it's not that clear as with the Jim. Methrage was released for agressive actions against GOONS a couple of months ago. But recently he decided to "take revenge" and he took up arms decided to attack GOONS again with no DOW whatsoever.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
A "rogue" is not a nation, who in, say, responding to offensive spy attacks, warns GOONS of continuing such actions, and then attack GOONS. That is not a rogue. That is a nation responding to offensive military actions against them.
[/quote]
How about a nation that sends secret aid to an enemy of GOONS?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285423488' post='2464271']
Jim doesn't hold any treaties with Methrage. And he only joined Methrage his aa 2 days after he DOW'ed GOONS. He even carried the aa "Monster" sounds like a typical rogue AA to me.
Methrage actions are questionably to say the least, I think would also consider him a rogue but it's not that clear as with the Jim. Methrage was released for agressive actions against GOONS a couple of months ago. But recently he decided to "take revenge" and he took up arms decided to attack GOONS again with no DOW whatsoever.
[/quote]
Umm, that's not what happened with Methrage. I don't really blame you for not following the events though, they were not the epitomy of great execution.

Methrage's alliancemate attacked a GOONS nation. When GOONS objected, Methrage first adopted a conciliatory tone, and then changed his mind and declared war on GOONS. GOONS then posted a DoW, which really should have been a recognition of hostilities, here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676

[uaciaut]

It's pretty hilarious to see people trying to avoid calling that guy a rogue.

That said i don't see how NPO's obliged to sanction him. This whole "sanction the rogue" thing was really more of a "noblesse oblige" type of thing really. If NPO doesn't like GOONS or doesn't feel that their actions aren't beneficial to red i see nothing forcing them to sanction that rogue.

[Omniscient1]

Since my question was ignored earlier, I'll repeat it. A member of NSO aided Methrage, a rogue by GOONS's standards. As a result of that 90 mil was extracted from the Sith. If red dawn is aiding a rogue by GOONS's standards will 90 mil be asked from Red Dawn?

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285394049' post='2464034']
They're aiding and harboring a nuclear rogue by allowing him aid and trade on their color. Personal issues with GOONS aside, they're supporting Methrage and anyone who aids him. [/quote]

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285422296' post='2464256']
After JimKongII decided to aid another rogue (Methrage). Normally that's reason enough to DOW, but GOONS just spied on him.
[/quote]

Time to step into this again...

JimKongIl, ruler of an independent nation, willfully aided Methrage, a member of a microalliance that declared war upon GOONS after some unspecified provocation (and if Methrage has since listed it, I have not see it and apologize).

This gave GOONS a valid CB against JimKongIl. GOONS allies subsequently spied on JimKongIl repeatedly, provoking this thread. JimKongIl decided not to wait until GOONS and its allies attacked, and after a final spy attack against him, he declared war on GOONS.

Those are the facts of the matter. Everything else is a matter of opinion and politics: the definition of "rogue" being marketed, the justification of sanctions.

My opinion on the matter...

JimKongIl was offered at various points the opportunity to pay $90 million as a "fine" for aiding an enemy of GOONS and would have been allowed to walk away if he had done so. Maybe other alliances offer rogues such a deal, but mine don't. JimKongIl was not a rogue. He was the leader of an independent nation that had the advantage of simply being too big to be worth attacking as part of a raid. That doesn't make him a rogue either. He did allow himself to be provoked through spy attacks into writing a check he had no business writing--a war that GOONS [i]wanted[/i]. That's another problem with defining him as a rogue. As a rule, rogues declare wars on people who do not want them without a valid CB being involved. What was JimKongIl's valid CB? Spy attacks done on behalf of GOONS (to anticipate an objection, GOONS' CB would have trumped Jim's had they used it).

Should you feel sorry for JimKongIl? Nope. But he doesn't fit the definition of rogue as was typically defined on Planet Bob prior to this incident. However, when you are one nation against hundreds, your enemies set the table. Part of why you don't put yourself in the position of being 1 (or a few) vs. 100s.

[Charles the Great]

[quote]The concept of a "rogue" is not "a singular nation doing something I do not like," but rather, "a singular nation doing something for no discernible political reason (i.e. !#$%s and giggles). [/quote]


While I believe goons had a valid reason for getting spy ops done on Jim.

I also believe Jim had every right to defend himself. He also appearantly had an ax to grind with them. This is not for !#$%s and giggles.

Therefore...Jim is not a rogue and should not be sanctioned unless it is for purely military reasons.

Thank you,
CtG

[size="1"][i]This is my own personal opinion[/i][/size]

[Sephiroth]

Considering the aid he sent to me prior to joining was an alliance approved action and he's now a member of KN, I don't think he's a rogue by any definition of the word.

[Phetion]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285426645' post='2464289']
Should you feel sorry for JimKongIl? Nope. But he doesn't fit the definition of rogue as was typically defined on Planet Bob prior to this incident. However, when you are one nation against hundreds, your enemies set the table. Part of why you don't put yourself in the position of being 1 (or a few) vs. 100s.
[/quote]


OK, if [i]secretly[/i] aiding an enemy (this goes for all parties, if you describe them as rogues or as an alliance) does not constitute a "rogue" action worthy of war/reperations, then what does. Certainly spying as those more sympathetic to Jim believe.

Any action taken which directly afflicts an alliance is a rogue action, and this is even moreso the case when done by an individual, in this case Jim. There's no if's, buts or maybes here, Jim attracted GOONS attention by aiding someone they were currently engaged in. He's a rogue. He provoked the GOONS, not the other way around.

And to address the few NPO posters here (including Cortath I believe), disputing whether or not he's a rogue, here's a situation for you.

A nation goes rogue on my alliance, our alliance deals with this nuclear rogue for a week or two. After the second round of nuclear war, he switches his AA to FAN, and continues his attacks on [i]my alliance[/i]. All slots are covered by us, and we ZI him. He sends many PMS of complaint to us, and eventually one of our members sends him a joke $1 aid offer. A few hours later an official from NPO comes over to our IRC and demands we pay a NPO nation the same amount of money or we retract the aid offer, otherwise we'll face war over it. And yeah, we had a significant treaty with GOD at the time, so we weren't some alliance like Jarheads et al. (It was Umbrae Nocterm or whoever, this time). So NPO considered what we did worthy of war, so imagine if we'd sent $4.5million secretly!

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285421251' post='2464246']
Actually, the only significant alliance on red is NPO. There's Invicta too, to be fair, but they'll basically do what you want (and I don't even hate them for it, they're just really good allies and you're lucky to have them.) Cult of Justitia are too small to have any real influence, and half of Biff Webster's votes are from NPO anyway. [u]The only reason you're playing nice with Red Dawn is for the PR, same with the red senate thing, you don't consider them real friends[/u]. Schattenmann, best buddies with NPO? Please. I can't really think of anyone else on red (that's your fault, by the way, it's the result of the Revenge and Moldavi Doctrines, which red has never recovered from), but I suppose there's TMF, who are also very irrelevant. I challenge you to name a single time that any of the other alliances in Red Dawn have "taken the lead in things".
[/quote]

I do appreciate you telling us what motives you think we have for our actions, but here's the simple fact: We are working with Red Dawn. We do not own Red. The Karma War made it rather clear that the world took a dim view of that, and we've adapted to the world.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1285428506' post='2464303']
I do appreciate you telling us what motives you think we have for our actions, but here's the simple fact: We are working with Red Dawn. We do not own Red. The Karma War made it rather clear that the world took a dim view of that, and we've adapted to the world.
[/quote]
If NPO doesn't own red anymore and the world looks down on the idea, you should probably stop claiming you're protecting the red sphere. Especially since you physically aren't.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Beefspari

[Biazt]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1285426637' post='2464288']
Since my question was ignored earlier, I'll repeat it. A member of NSO aided Methrage, a rogue by GOONS's standards. As a result of that 90 mil was extracted from the Sith. If red dawn is aiding a rogue by GOONS's standards will 90 mil be asked from Red Dawn?
[/quote]
No. If you need to ask why, you should probably think this over.