GOON spy orders

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285156551' post='2460865']
If he doesn't care about his infra, he could've just declared on GOONS right away. Why bother with a warning if he doesn't care about his infra? Maybe he thinks nobody will call his bluff. [/quote]

Given that he volunteered to fight against Gramlins back when Gramlins was keeping station against IRON's upper tier in a misguided attempt to force them to "unconditionally surrender", I doubt he's bluffing.

[i]Number of Soldiers Lost in All Wars: 1,449,934 Attacking + 1,857,969 Defending = 3,307,903 Casualties
Casualty Rank: Ranked #190 of 21,006 Nations (0.90%) [/i]

No, he doesn't bluff very often. One way to find out as others have pointed out. I'm sure your allies will provide the "muscle" you lack though if you're serious. Of course it's likely the only thing that will be filling his offensive slots are GOONS.

[quote]Maybe he thinks large nations can just do whatever they want without consequences. [/quote]

An alliance that maintains a "mercy board" on its forums so that small alliances and non-aligned nations can plea for peace should not make this statement. The irony cannot be contained on Planet Bob.

[quote]Maybe he's trying to make it seem like he's the victim.[/quote]

He's saying you spied on him, he didn't appreciate it, next time someone gets the shotgun. Seems clear he feels he's been transgressed.

What you have in terms of a case against him is a bit of circumstantial evidence, hints from a person who you previously declared untrustworthy, and no proof.

I think we're done here.

[Emphix]

Secret? is what I'm asking [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92577&view=findpost&p=2460855"]here[/url]considered a secret?

I know there are quite some ways to trim the suspect lists. I just care about the precedent things bring.

If you have no proof whatsoever beside someone is having FAC and is sending secret aid, then the guy refuse to reveal that aid, will that guy then be considered "intentionally planting evidence against themselves" or "want to start a fight"?

Burden of proof, etc. This can quite be a precedent, if just by owning FAC, you then have to be ready to prove yourself innocent whenever a case occur, or then you can't complaint if someone spied you if you refuse.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1285159287' post='2460880']
I thought that was already decided that JimKongIl sent the secret aid in the #9 post of this thread, nevertheless I see no attacks against him yet, are GOONS getting soft?
[/quote]
They have some minor problems with proving it. And JimKongIl is like .

Edited September 22, 2010 by xoindotnler

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285159722' post='2460883']
Burden of proof, etc. This can quite be a precedent, if just by owning FAC, you then have to be ready to prove yourself innocent whenever a case occur, or then you can't complaint if someone spied you if you refuse.
[/quote]
If you ever show that a goon has sent secret aid to someone and are concerned it involves you in some way, feel free to let us know about it.

Let's not try to glorify or justify secret aid. The only reason to send secret aid is you're trying to do something sneaky and underhanded. Whether that's aid nuclear rogues, commit acts of war without getting caught, or try to lure people into fighting you. There's no legitimate use for secret aid other than getting away with things that you wouldn't be able to otherwise. OWNING an FAC is not an issue by itself, but if you're using the FAC to send out secret aid you're already up to something.

It seems the absolute shock of being caught in the act of doing something wrong is too much for some people to bear. They try to make up excuses for why what they're doing is okay, when the core of the issue is that they're sending aid and trying not to get caught.

So Jim, even if you didn't aid Methrage, what exactly is it you're trying to hide from everyone?

Edited September 22, 2010 by Beefspari

[Vanilla Napalm]

brilliant! this thread! i LOVE this thread!
I call a slot when he gets dragged down to my size.

[potato]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1285159287' post='2460880']
I thought that was already decided that JimKongIl sent the secret aid in the #9 post of this thread, nevertheless I see no attacks against him yet, are GOONS getting soft?
[/quote]

You either can't read or you thought it would be witty to skip all the explanations and make a poor attempt at mudslinging. Either way, read up and make an effort.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]I hate to say this, but based on some of the evidences listed by GOONS, they do have a fairly decent grounding for suspicion. Especially the switching off orange for a moment. They haven't attacked you without solid evidence, but they do have a probably cause for suspicion. That and I believe you are unaligned, so they really can spy on you if they like.[/color]

[Emphix]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285159868' post='2460885']
If you ever show that a goon has sent secret aid to someone and are concerned it involves you in some way, feel free to let us know about it.

Let's not try to glorify or justify secret aid. The only reason to send secret aid is you're trying to do something sneaky and underhanded. Whether that's aid nuclear rogues, commit acts of war without getting caught, or try to lure people into fighting you. There's no legitimate use for secret aid other than getting away with things that you wouldn't be able to otherwise. OWNING an FAC is not an issue by itself, but if you're using the FAC to send out secret aid you're already up to something.

It seems the absolute shock of being caught in the act of doing something wrong is too much for some people to bear. They try to make up excuses for why what they're doing is okay, when the core of the issue is that they're sending aid and trying not to get caught.

So Jim, even if you didn't aid Methrage, what exactly is it you're trying to hide from everyone?
[/quote]

I see.

That's a very big assumption you put there. Not necessarily one I'd agree with, but of course it's your right to assume so.

Though then on retrospect it means that point 3-5 themselves are then just added flavorings, as just the fact that if you send secret aid itself (point 2), already make you liable to prove yourself innocent (as it's assumed you must have done something wrong).

Thanks for clearing things up

[Heinlander]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285159568' post='2460882']
An alliance that maintains a "mercy board" on its forums so that small alliances and non-aligned nations can plea for peace should not make this statement. The irony cannot be contained on Planet Bob.[/quote]Sure we can. We don't assume that our actions have immunity from fallout; in fact there are direct consequences from every action we take. Most of the time they involve our enemies hating us more and our allies loving us more, so those seem like acceptable terms.

We aren't paralyzed by fear from the possible consequences of our policies.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='thedestro' timestamp='1285133121' post='2460677']
After taking a look at your nation, you're large and by yourself. Even if you do admit it, GOONS would be foolish to do anything about it
[/quote]
Yep. GOONS have a total of one nation in his range, and let's just say that Umar would be quite damaged in a one-on-one.

My guess is they're spying him to try and get evidence they can take to allies to get their allies to fight for them.

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285133802' post='2460690']
It is really scary seeing all the people who support nuclear rogues.
Are you views your own or does your whole alliance support nuclear rogues?
[/quote]
lol

You want to see people supporting nuke rogues, check this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77695

You'll find posts supporting nuclear rogues from the governments of GOD, Dark Templar, Athens, iFOK, Alchemy, and various members of MK and FOK as well. You wouldn't be allied to any of those alliances, now would you?

The thread is also full of complaints by the nuclear rogue about the sanction that was placed against him by IRON. The parallels are quite amusing.

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1285138505' post='2460757']
Bring it on, Jim.
[/quote]
Oh, who knows, maybe Umar is feeling like dropping GOONS' score a bit.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285156551' post='2460865']
If he doesn't care about his infra, he could've just declared on GOONS right away. Why bother with a warning if he doesn't care about his infra? Maybe he thinks nobody will call his bluff. Maybe he thinks large nations can just do whatever they want without consequences. Maybe he's trying to make it seem like he's the victim.
[/quote]
If he attacks you for spying on him, then you guys invoke the TENE precedent and say that makes him a nuke rogue, and go and get him sanctioned by your allies.

Here he's giving an ultimatum. He's trying to get around the TENE precedent.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1285157003' post='2460866']
We can share the damage.
[/quote]
No, you can't. You don't have anyone in his range.

Sorry. Maybe after Umar has been nuking him for a while.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285162148' post='2460902']
I see.

That's a very big assumption you put there. Not necessarily one I'd agree with, but of course it's your right to assume so.

Though then on retrospect it means that point 3-5 themselves are then just added flavorings, as just the fact that if you send secret aid itself (point 2), already make you liable to prove yourself innocent (as it's assumed you must have done something wrong).

Thanks for clearing things up
[/quote]
That's only if the other things apply. If he hadn't switched off of orange, we'd have no reason to suspect him, no matter what secret aid he's sent.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285133809' post='2460692']
Let's be real, heir kingmeister...

Methrage isn't worth aiding at this point. Even if GOONS wasn't crawling around having people spied up who maybe/yeah probably sent him aid. If Methrage escapes this time, we know what will happen in the end. GOONS will poke him with a stick until he attacks, he'll decide to go on crusade again because whatever saints he has in his nation told him to go do it, or whatever the case, and we'll be here once again talking about Methrage.

This isn't a typical situation. It's gone from facepalm, to people arguing over GOONS tactics, to sublime comedy. Sure you can acknowledge that much. The normal rules that govern these things got burned long ago.
[/quote]
Its a fair point but I still believe that I would be acting in the same way if people repeatedly kept aiding this idiot, even if it was simply out of sheer annoyance that people dont seem to get the message.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Heinlander' timestamp='1285162186' post='2460903']
Sure we can. We don't assume that our actions have immunity from fallout; in fact there are direct consequences from every action we take. Most of the time they involve our enemies hating us more and our allies loving us more, so those seem like acceptable terms.[/quote]

GOONS has been down the road once before in its previous incarnation here. The results were not pretty.

Enjoy this time while it lasts I suppose.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' timestamp='1285163987' post='2460922']
Its a fair point but I still believe that I would be acting in the same way if people repeatedly kept aiding this idiot, even if it was simply out of sheer annoyance that people dont seem to get the message.
[/quote]
While they simultaneously complain that 90m is too much (even though all they have to do to avoid paying 90m is not aid a nuclear rogue).

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285161934' post='2460900']That and I believe you are unaligned, so they really can spy on you if they like.[/color]
[/quote]
No, it's still an act of war. Just on a smaller scale (nation, rather than alliance). Nations on None don't have any less protection from violations of sovereignty than nations sitting on an AA do. The only difference is that the allied nation has friends guaranteed to be willing to fight alongside it.

This is an enjoyable thread so far, though.

[Beefspari]

[quote]You have just conducted a spy operation against the nation of Raidon. In the attack your spy efforts were successful as your spies were able to gather the following information about the nation:
Desired Religion: Judaism
Desired Government: Totalitarian State
Threat Level: Severe
Tax Rate: 30%
Number of Spies: 800
Last Nuke Purchase: 8/12/2010 10:30:55 PM
Last Wonder Purchase: 9/15/2010
Total Money: (removed)
Technology: 16,850.98 Levels
Last Bill Payment: 9/22/2010 12:00:11 AM
Trade Partners: GenghisKahn, BuildQA, Matavia, Hubbard
[b]Secret Aid Sent To: Libertarian Empire[/b]
Total Aircraft: 105
Aircraft Fighter Strength: 945
Aircraft Bomber Strength: 0
Navy Purchases Today: 0
Navy Vessels:

Corvettes: 13
Landing Ships: 13
Battleships: 11
Cruisers: 10
Frigates: 9
Destroyers: 9
Submarines: 8
Aircraft Carriers: 8
[/quote]

DAMN THOSE GOONS, always bullying [b]innocent people[/b] and extorting stuff from people who don't deserve it. (sarcasm ends here)

Well this makes us 3/3, thanks again Methrage. You make this way too easy.

It also means you shot first Kim by committing a direct act of war against GOONS. So our spying was justified since you started it. So where do we go from here?

I expect a full apology from everyone who ever doubted the awesomeness of GOONS, especially Methrage who accused us of extorting innocent people.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Beefspari

[nutkase]

Why did you remove his total money?

[Voytek]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285165978' post='2460940']
Why did you remove his total money?
[/quote]
If he hadn't you would be asking why he left it in on account of warchest-client privilege or something.

[potato]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285165978' post='2460940']
Why did you remove his total money?
[/quote]

To avoid him being mocked, I guess. Because it's not that impressive at his level.

[Xavii]

Never doubted you GOONS.

Balls in your court Jim.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285165978' post='2460940']
Why did you remove his total money?
[/quote]
Because warchest is pretty much the only reason people don't want to be spied on (unless they're secretly aiding nuclear rogues), so we're doing him a favor by not advertising it.

[Hiro Nakara]

LOL GOONS you make me warm inside. So how much has Methrage cost people in his crusade? Methrage you are like a cheap knock off copy of Greenacres.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1285166440' post='2460954']
LOL GOONS you make me warm inside. so how much has methrage cost people in his crusade? You are like a cheap knock off copy of Greenacres.
[/quote]
So far we've gotten 270m in reps (some of that is in process though).

Some of us have started calling Methrage the One Billion Dollar Rogue.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285166529' post='2460955']
So far we've gotten 270m in reps (some of that is in process though).

Some of us have started calling Methrage the One Billion Dollar Rogue.
[/quote]

Muhahahaahha, I like this name for him. I approve.

Also 270 million, lol lol lol. You would think nations would recognise the pattern and stop, I guess some nations here are slow learners.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Heinlander]

It's Christmas in Goonland!

edit: I cannot stop laughing

Edited September 22, 2010 by Heinlander