GOON spy orders

[Voytek]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285176345' post='2461118']I'm only responding to the claim that members of GOONS are avid fighters that don't mind losing infra.[/quote]
Are you really so petty that you can't let even the most minor of points that you disagree with pass? Seriously, if you can't find anything better to pick on you shouldn't open your mouth at all - I don't care how badly you want to be seen as an OWF superstar.

[potato]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285176123' post='2461113']
War is only fought against a weaker opponent? Yeah, that makes sense but that's not my point.
GOONS claims to love fighting and that losing infra doesn't bother them. Yet they consistently attack smaller nations who cannot fight back and then use their allies to help them reduce the damage they would receive.
[/quote]

Oh god. This argument again? I'll spell it out once more then... Any time someone helps Methrage, GOONS tell us because they're good allies. Almost immediately, MK, Umbrella, PC, iFOK, GOD and the rest of GOONS' allies are fighting each other to get a piece of the rogue. And GOONS, being good allies, let us. You can call them cowards for that all you want though, just like you can look like a moron all you want in the process. I call it being a good ally.

[Lairek]

So tell me Kulomascovia...

Is it the official oppinion of well known anti-raiding alliance Celestial Being that secretly aiding Nuclear rogues in full on raiding rogue mode is A-OK? Or is it just your personal oppinion as a "moralist" that the end justifies the means and that might makes right. As long as the rogues are hitting GOONS of course.

Some "moralist".

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285176381' post='2461120']
Look at my nation, look at my active wars, and tell me I'm not "bad".
[/quote]

I'm not going to debate with you about individual nations. It's possible that some GOONS nations actually don't mind losing infra, I'm not calling all of GOONS cowards. However, most of the wars you guys have are declared against smaller nations and at times with other members to back them up.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285176466' post='2461123']
I can't speak for everyone, but most of my wars are against stronger opponents, especially in infra (my raided land inflates my NS pretty nicely). Heck the last good fight I was in, I was 17,000 NS and my opponent was 22,000.

I'll give you some hints, ordered to relate to your paragraph here:

1) When you're winning, your opponent's NS tends to go down, meaning the war screen shows he's "weaker"
2) Our war history shows 207 wars for 280 nations, it's obvious we hate to fight
3) We're currently fighting 10 nuclear rogues, and 0 of our nations are in peace mode, so it's obvious we love our infra
4) Any nation can fight back, CMs work all the time, so if we love our infra so much we wouldn't raid
5) If you can point out even one instance of an ally bailing us out of a tech raid, I'll give you our next Methrage payment
[/quote]

1. I'm talking about declaring on a smaller opponent.
2. It's not that you love to fight, it's just that your members can attack the unaligned and underaligned with impunity. So it's not a surprise that you have a large number of wars. The point is, how many of those wars are declared against a bigger opponent.
3. Who would be in peace mode in GOONS? Most take the opportunity of having well placed allies to attack smaller nations/less connected alliances and get away with it.
4. Most don't fight back (at least not for an extended period of time) because they will most likely lose as the aggressor can bring his friends over.
5. Your allies in Umbrella often help you sanction rogues. This is not really expected from an alliance that loves to fight and doesn't care about infra.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Lairek' timestamp='1285177069' post='2461131']
So tell me Kulomascovia...

Is it the official oppinion of well known anti-raiding alliance Celestial Being that secretly aiding Nuclear rogues in full on raiding rogue mode is A-OK? Or is it just your personal oppinion as a "moralist" that the end justifies the means and that might makes right. As long as the rogues are hitting GOONS of course.

Some "moralist".
[/quote]
No don't

[Gobb]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285176793' post='2461126']
Are we animals who do not know how to speak to one and other?
[/quote]
I really don't see how you can expect your friends to be courteous towards you when you've just acted behind their backs and put them at risk for the heck of it.

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285176823' post='2461129']
Oh god. This argument again? I'll spell it out once more then... Any time someone helps Methrage, GOONS tell us because they're good allies. Almost immediately, MK, Umbrella, PC, iFOK, GOD and the rest of GOONS' allies are fighting each other to get a piece of the rogue. And GOONS, being good allies, let us. You can call them cowards for that all you want though, just like you can look like a moron all you want in the process. I call it being a good ally.
[/quote]

I'm not talking about their fight against rogues, I'm talking about their tech raids and their use of sanctions to reduce the amount of damage they get when they encounter rogues in their range.

[quote name='Lairek' timestamp='1285177069' post='2461131']
So tell me Kulomascovia...

Is it the official oppinion of well known anti-raiding alliance Celestial Being that secretly aiding Nuclear rogues in full on raiding rogue mode is A-OK? Or is it just your personal oppinion as a "moralist" that the end justifies the means and that might makes right. As long as the rogues are hitting GOONS of course.

Some "moralist".
[/quote]

I never claimed to be a moralist. I'm perfectly fine with anyone helping people rogue against actively raiding alliances. However, that would be my personal opinion. Generally, I don't approve of rogues (in fact, I would say they are dangers to Planet Bob) however, I consider raiding to be of greater danger to our planet. So I don't quite mind if rogues occupy themselves with attacking raiders and leave the rest of planet bob alone.

[Ardus]

I really can't stand the willful idiocy and barbarism of those who continue to support Methrage and those who aid him. We should invade their alliances, ZI their leaders and convert them to Archonism.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1285177325' post='2461135']
I really don't see how you can expect your friends to be courteous towards you when you've just acted behind their backs and put them at risk for the heck of it.[/quote]

I wouldnt call pezstar a friend, but the friends i do have over there all say i should of been spoken to beforehand, so maybe they all wrong too? or maybe theres two different view points...

[Heinlander]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285176823' post='2461129']
Oh god. This argument again? I'll spell it out once more then... Any time someone helps Methrage, GOONS tell us because they're good allies. Almost immediately, MK, Umbrella, PC, iFOK, GOD and the rest of GOONS' allies are fighting each other to get a piece of the rogue. And GOONS, being good allies, let us. You can call them cowards for that all you want though, just like you can look like a moron all you want in the process. I call it being a good ally.
[/quote]Our detractors are incapable of reading these words. They are as if a cipher to them because they do not fit into the convenient fantasy world which they have constructed that gives them the moral high ground.

Stop wasting electricity. There are starving kids in third world countries that need it to heat their hot pickets.

[Daikos]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1285134697' post='2460702']
Watching the goons run around in pursuit of who might or might not be aiding one nation leader while they and their allies waste wave after wave of 3 million war aid packages to their nations fighting a 4 and an 8 member alliance is the ultimate in comedy.

Please do continue this show of goonie prowess.


[/quote]

No, I think watching the waves of incompetent fools flee from this thread with their foots in their mouths, when GOONs turned out to be correct (for a 3rd time) is the ultimate in comedy.


[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285172083' post='2461037']
Lots of people have posted their willingness to attack Jim in here.

Umar's the only one actually in range of him and with the ability to back up his claims of bravery.

Hilariously, he didn't even bother to declare.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=144512&Extended=1
[/quote]

Are you even remotely aware of the timeline of events? They're pretty damn clear in this thread. Perhaps *gasp* Umar isn't available right this instant. Or, even more crazy, perhaps he wants to quad this fellow.

I have a question for all of you who are busting your asses to bring a hilarious level of hurf and durf to this thread: How is the view with your head lodged firmly up your own ass? It must be great since you all seem to spend so much time admiring it.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1285177634' post='2461139']
I really can't stand the willful idiocy and barbarism of those who continue to support Methrage and those who aid him. We should invade their alliances, ZI their leaders and convert them to Archonism.
[/quote]

I'm down. And the best thing is that if we do this they cannot blame MK for being cowards and letting their allies do all their work since we aren't allied.

/me highfives MK

[Gobb]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285177671' post='2461141']
I wouldnt call pezstar a friend, but the friends i do have over there all say i should of been spoken to beforehand, so maybe they all wrong too? or maybe theres two different view points...
[/quote]
If there weren't at least two different points of view we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? I still don't see why you should've been treated with courteousness, though. You betrayed them, not the other way around.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285177124' post='2461132']
I'm not going to debate with you about individual nations. It's possible that some GOONS nations actually don't mind losing infra, I'm not calling all of GOONS cowards. However, most of the wars you guys have are declared against smaller nations and at times with other members to back them up.
[/quote]

You are really pretty ignorant of the facts here and what GOONS is all about. These flimsy arguments do nothing but pull back the veil on your anti-GOONS PR agenda. Oh no, we use dreaded [i]sanctions[/i]. That [i]totally[/i] gives our low level nations the advantage against nukes and warchests and military wonders.

[Shakira]

damn GONS

Edited October 3, 2010 by C Mos

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285178241' post='2461152']
You are really pretty ignorant of the facts here and what GOONS is all about. These flimsy arguments do nothing but pull back the veil on your anti-GOONS PR agenda. Oh no, we use dreaded [i]sanctions[/i]. That [i]totally[/i] gives our low level nations the advantage against nukes and warchests and military wonders.
[/quote]

If you believe I am ignorant and that my arguments are flimsy, why don't you tell me what I'm missing?

[Mandolus]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285178587' post='2461155']
If you believe I am ignorant and that my arguments are flimsy, why don't you tell me what I'm missing?
[/quote]

The fact that our nations have been chomping at the bit to declare on these nuke rogues? The fact that we don't have a single nation in peace? The fact that our only nation in range of JimKongIl told him to "bring it on"?

Edited September 22, 2010 by Mandolus

[ktarthan]

kulomascovia, to reply to the general argument you're putting forth: The nations of GOONS aren't stupid.

We like to fight. We don't mind taking nukes and losing some infra, but that doesn't mean we're going to disregard [i]strategy[/i] and actively take steps to increase the damage we will take. Someone who doesn't fight well doesn't get to fight for long, so how would it benefit ourselves to intentionally take more damage?

[the rebel]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1285178098' post='2461149']
If there weren't at least two different points of view we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? I still don't see why you should've been treated with courteousness, though. You betrayed them, not the other way around.
[/quote]

You're missing out the fact that they wasnt totally convinced hence the need for spy attacks, so since they wasnt sure, then why not ask first.

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285178969' post='2461161']
The fact that our nations have been chomping at the bit to declare on these nuke rogues? The fact that we don't have a single nation in peace mode? The fact that our only nation in range of JimKongIl told him to "bring it on"?
[/quote]

And I've addressed these points from BeefSpari's post. If you think there is something wrong with my reply, I'd be glad if you would point them out to me.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285179003' post='2461162']
kulomascovia, to reply to the general argument you're putting forth: The nations of GOONS aren't stupid.

We like to fight. We don't mind taking nukes and losing some infra, but that doesn't mean we're going to disregard [i]strategy[/i] and actively take steps to increase the damage we will take. Someone who doesn't fight well doesn't get to fight for long, so how would it benefit ourselves to intentionally take more damage?
[/quote]


Ok, fair enough. I can understand the use of strategy in dealing with nuclear rogues who know what they're doing. However, that still doesn't explain why your sub 10k ns nations often declare on smaller targets that won't fight back. I'm sure some of you love to fight however I don't quite agree that GOONS as a whole is an alliance that loves to have fun with good fights and losing infra over those fights.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285179335' post='2461167']However, that still doesn't explain why your sub 10k ns nations often declare on smaller targets that won't fight back.
[/quote]

We love to fight but we also love liberating resources from those unwilling to defend it. This is straying off topic however so I'd kindly ask you to continue this lame anti-GOONS PR campaign elsewhere.

[Rampage3]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285162461' post='2460907']

If he attacks you for spying on him, then you guys invoke the TENE precedent and say that makes him a nuke rogue, and go and get him sanctioned by your allies.

Here he's giving an ultimatum. He's trying to get around the TENE precedent.

[/quote]


I am not amused. Try sticking to the matter at hand and leave TENE out of your attempts at intelligence.

[lakerzz8]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285176121' post='2461112']
You obviously havent been paying attention to what ive said, as i said [b]if[/b] they had asked me before spy attacks, there would not of had been need for spy attacks. So yes i took offense that being a highly active member who is easily able to get in contact with within hours, that they couldnt be arsed to talk to me first.
[/quote]

I liked you, Rebel. I really did. But every time I see you post, my respect for you goes down (it is already pretty low after your stunt). Seriously, stop trying to spin this to make it seem like you're the victim. Yes, I think you should have been asked before any spy attacks were authorized, however, it was not a right of yours to be asked. And judging by your actions now, I don't think you even deserved it. Did you talk to the alliance before aiding a nuke rogue and putting the alliance's security in jeopardy? No. So why should the government talk to you? You keep claiming that there wasn't enough proof, yet somehow, GOONS luckily guessed and was correct that you did aid Methrage. You say that you would have answered truthfully if the gov had asked you. Therefore, you willingly would have told the gov everything they need to know to kick you out of the alliance. So obviously you weren't as loyal a member as you claim to be since you had no qualms from being kicked out of the alliance. I don't know any members that are loyal to their alliance who actively engage in actions that will get them labeled as a rogue and kicked out (No, I'm not talking about people trying to coup a bad leader to help the alliance and being kicked out...). Seriously, your words contradict themselves and you're making yourself look foolish. Speaking as someone who still slightly cares about you, stop with the attention-seeking and just lay low for a while until this blows over. Appearing in every thread defending others who aided a nuke rogue is not the greatest way to restore your public image. Unless you're happy being seen as a rogue....well whatever floats your boat.


With that out of the way, I wanted to address some things people keep repeating in this thread. A handful keep saying how costly it would be to go after Jim and how GOONS would lose more than 270 mil. Do you people not realize that he has basically declared on them by aiding someone they are at war with? Hasn't every single "war" declared on the OWF led to a loss in money by those declaring (and by those being declared on). I don't know any war lasting more than a few days that was very profitable, especially those that involved large nations (and I'm not talking about reps after the fact). This is clearly not about the money it is about the fact that someone declared on the GOONS AA and the fact that GOONS has to protect their AA. I don't know about your alliance, but if someone is aiding rogues that are at war with STA, I will not sit back and calculate how much of a loss my nation may take. I have sworn that I will defend the STA and that is what I will do. This isn't a picnic, it is a war.

And to the people that are worried this sets a new precedent. Yes, a precedent that if you secretly aid a nuclear rogue, you will get caught and pay for it. So many seem to be worried about their sovereignty, but please tell me how many non-aiders GOONS has spied on? Oh, right...none. They obviously don't spy on anyone before they have any evidence or they would not have been 3/3. So let's not talk about any precedents until the GOONS starts spying on innocent people and causing damage without any kind of reparations. Thanks.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285179335' post='2461167']
Ok, fair enough. I can understand the use of strategy in dealing with nuclear rogues who know what they're doing. However, that still doesn't explain why your sub 10k ns nations often declare on smaller targets that won't fight back. I'm sure some of you love to fight however I don't quite agree that GOONS as a whole is an alliance that loves to have fun with good fights and losing infra over those fights.
[/quote]
Well that's just smart raiding. Raiding is an action with risk involved, and in order to hope to make profit from it, you need to minimize your risk. You never know if a nation will fight back before you actually declare, regardless of their size, but if our sub 10k NS nations consistently raided difficult targets then they would stay sub 10k NS.

[lazaraus45]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285177124' post='2461132']
5. Your allies in Umbrella often help you sanction rogues. This is not really expected from an alliance that loves to fight and doesn't care about infra.
[/quote]

Ironic that your reply to GOONS calling you out to provide some proof about them getting allies to help bully tech raid victims seems to be you implying that tech raid victims = rogues.

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1285179655' post='2461171']
I am not amused. Try sticking to the matter at hand and leave TENE out of your attempts at intelligence.
[/quote]

a bit harsh IMO, someone in Invicta has to attempt intelligence and seeing as their main method of doing so is clutching at straws, Haflinger may as well be the one to do it.

Edited September 22, 2010 by lazaraus45