Is Raiding Morally Wrong?

[LegendoftheSkies]

Raiding alliances are evil and tyrannical. I very much enjoy being both.

I raided a week or so ago for the first time in a good long time in fact. It felt good man.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1285088332' post='2460045']
There was only one "personal" attack, by the way, and it was one hundred percent legitimate. Sure, [ooc]if this were a game that reflected our actions in real life, I'm sure that not many people would tech raid.[/ooc] However, morals here clearly defer, as in most electronic games. Does anyone play Pokemon to accumulate money? Does anyone play Runescape to purely level up ones smithing capabilities? Sure, there are probably some that do, but to say that anyone that tech raids in Planet Bob is an undisciplined, second rate citizen, is pure stupidity. Most raiding alliances have rules that their members must follow in order to continue tech raiding, members that follow those rules are disciplined. Don't act like a majority of tech raiders are idiots, because you would be incorrect.
[/quote]

Using a personal attack rather then dispute his post is a low blow and talks of your character no matter the number of them you use or the fact if its legitimate or not. You tried to claim that nations that tech raid are more inclined to be disciplined when there is evidence to suggest they are not. Many nations that tech raid breach their alliances tech rules or go outside what is considered normal tech raiding procedures. I never acted like tech raiders are idiots, I act like tech raiders are nothing more then abusing other nations in order to benefit themselves and in some cases act like cowards in doing so.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1285079162' post='2459971']
You seem like the kind of person that would join World of Warcraft to make a living off chopping down trees. I apologize for messing around with such a "high calibre Pacifican warrior".



I guess everyone should just follow the established morality and legality rules in Planet Bob, clearly that has been known to make the game incredibly fun.
Alliances that allow tech raiding tend to have [b][i]more[/i] disciplined members[/b] that are [b][i]better[/i] at fighting[/b], since they have many times more experience. Waiting a couple months for an alliance war? When has an alliance war ever happened in such frequency?
[/quote]
Fighting GOONS has led me to believe this is not the case, if your members are good at fighting and disciplined, its not because you tech raid or allow it.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285091102' post='2460086']
Fighting GOONS has led me to believe this is not the case, if your members are good at fighting and disciplined, its not because you tech raid or allow it.
[/quote]

You must be really proud of trashing a bunch of inactive newbies with your nukes and full wonder set (not to mention the help of UOKMB) because you keep talking about it at every available opportunity.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Mandolus

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285089824' post='2460066']
Using a personal attack rather then dispute his post is a low blow and talks of your character no matter the number of them you use or the fact if its legitimate or not. You tried to claim that nations that tech raid are more inclined to be disciplined when there is evidence to suggest they are not. Many nations that tech raid breach their alliances tech rules or go outside what is considered normal tech raiding procedures. I never acted like tech raiders are idiots, I act like tech raiders are nothing more then abusing other nations in order to benefit themselves and in some cases act like cowards in doing so.
[/quote]

Calling raiders undisciplined second rate citizens is also a low blow, so I really couldn't care less. There is equal or more evidence to suggest that nations that aren't allowed to tech raid also less disciplined. No matter what alliance you are in, tech raiding or not, there will be undisciplined members. Tech raiding is not the factor, member quality is.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285091384' post='2460095']
You must be really proud of trashing a bunch of inactive newbies with your nukes and full wonder set (not to mention the help of UOKMB) because you keep talking about it at every available opportunity.
[/quote]
They [i]are[/i] resources.

[Unko Kalaikz]

Comrades, this is no game. As rulers you are charged with the task of allowing your citizens the opportunity to thrive and prosper. Personal attacks won't change the fact that people joining a "lulz" based raider alliance are generally going to be less mature and of a lower calibre than those joining a prestigious, disciplined, philosophically developed one that does not plunder innocent nations.

[Mathias]

From what I've seen raiding alliances happen to be some of the most strict and disciplined alliances on Planet Bob.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Mathias

[Unko Kalaikz]

There are always exceptions to the rule.

[Tautology]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285097415' post='2460185']
There are always exceptions to the rule.[/quote]
Maybe you're one?

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1285099281' post='2460203']
Maybe you're one?
[/quote]
What rule are we talking about, I only raided once years ago and didnt enjoy the experience.

[eejack]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1285079162' post='2459971']
Alliances that allow tech raiding tend to have [i]more[/i] disciplined members that are [i]better[/i] at fighting, since they have many times more experience. Waiting a couple months for an alliance war? When has an alliance war ever happened in such frequency?
[/quote]

It was put forth that raiding ain't fighting therefore your supposition that raiding is training for fighting is untrue. All raiding trains anyone to do it target herd stragglers with ground attacks - there is little if none intra-alliance coordination, quad attacks, use of CMs, air or navy.

Unless of course by raiding you mean just blowing other folks up.

Now maybe the members are more disciplined but better at fighting...no.

[Unko Kalaikz]

Francoist policies and good training and membership selection are far better at instilling discipline than stealing a little tech from a couple ground attacks then whining if they hit back.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1285079162' post='2459971']
Alliances that allow tech raiding tend to have [i]more[/i] disciplined members that are [i]better[/i] at fighting, since they have many times more experience. Waiting a couple months for an alliance war? When has an alliance war ever happened in such frequency?
[/quote]
Some how it are also the alliances where almost all news from raids gone wrong come from.

[Bloodjewel]

I've never understood why nukes are considered a bad thing. Even in raids, they are nothing more than glorified cruise missiles.

[DragonsPhyre]

[quote name='Bloodjewel' timestamp='1285103349' post='2460277']
I've never understood why nukes are considered a bad thing. Even in raids, they are nothing more than glorified cruise missiles.
[/quote]
It raises the Global Radiation Level, lowering income and population everywhere. No more mutated calfs, please. O_o

I disagree with the concept and reasoning behind allowing tech or land raiding and, really, would personally like nothing better than to see the practice cease. However, for a variety of reasons, I'm not really in favor of going forth and eradicating them myself so I'll stick with being content with the status quo as long as the raiding nation accepts the consequences of its aggressive actions. This means they don't whine about being nuked (I still laugh incredulously at the incident where raiders (GOD, I believe?) requested sanctions on a raiding target that nuked, calling it a rogue) and won't complain overmuch when they inevitably mess with the wrong target.

[Unko Kalaikz]

Every day a raider is nuked in retaliation is a good day.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1284973855' post='2458811']
Hey everyone, I've been seeing a lot of talk about whether or not raiding for tech is wrong. I am personally of the opinion that it is right. If a nation can't defend themselves they have no right to the resources there. They should get an alliance if they don't want to be raided. What do you guys think?
[/quote]
[OOC]If only Godwin didn't make that law...[/OOC]

I think there should be no such thing as right and wrong on bob, so I'm for it I guess.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Jens of the desert

[Egwaterboy61]

I, personally, don't think it's a question of morality but one of the betterment of the game. Raiding deters new nations from continual expansion and growth [OOCplaying[/OOC], its that simple.

For that fact I am against tech raiding. Its a simple opportunity cost. If we raid we gain small amounts of land and tech, yet have the opportunity costs of deterring others from playing. If we don't raid we encourage the growth of new nations, with the opportunity cost of small amounts of land and tech. Buy tech and land...don't raid it.

And lastly, for those using the "get an alliance if you don't want to be raided" argument...thats a cop-out plain and simple. Put yourself in the shoes of a new nation. I was there about 1250 days ago. If you don't know the game, hows its played, and why alliances are important, than you can't be expected to know enough to protect yourself against raiders by joining an alliance.

Its like when people catch baby fish...its just stupid and cuts down on the population. Want war? Start a real one with established alliances who *know* how to play.

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='EEjack' timestamp='1285101235' post='2460238']
It was put forth that raiding ain't fighting therefore your supposition that raiding is training for fighting is untrue. All raiding trains anyone to do it target herd stragglers with ground attacks - there is little if none intra-alliance coordination, quad attacks, use of CMs, air or navy.

Unless of course by raiding you mean just blowing other folks up.

Now maybe the members are more disciplined but better at fighting...no.
[/quote]

I was not the one that put forth that raiding is not fighting, so you are wrong. You operate under the assumption that all raids have one nation raiding the other, and the other not fighting back at all. I'd say that this is the case maybe 50% of the time, maybe less. It depends on who you are raiding. I've had many raids where my raid fought back, you can't tell me that I did not gain any war experience in that.

[quote name='Egwaterboy61' timestamp='1285110659' post='2460373']
And lastly, for those using the "get an alliance if you don't want to be raided" argument...thats a cop-out plain and simple. Put yourself in the shoes of a new nation. I was there about 1250 days ago. If you don't know the game, hows its played, and why alliances are important, than you can't be expected to know enough to protect yourself against raiders by joining an alliance.
[/quote]

Now let me ask you, Egwaterboy61, to put [i]yourself[/i] back in the shoes of a new nation. Or hell, just pretend you switched your alliance affiliation to None. Within half an hour, you can expect at least five PM's explaining the dangers of being a new nation on none, and requesting that the nation apply to join their alliance. Within two hours, at least ten. If not more.

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1285111493' post='2460377']Now let me ask you, Egwaterboy61, to put [i]yourself[/i] back in the shoes of a new nation. Or hell, just pretend you switched your alliance affiliation to None. Within half an hour, you can expect at least five PM's explaining the dangers of being a new nation on none, and requesting that the nation apply to join their alliance. Within two hours, at least ten. If not more.
[/quote]

Very true. So I suppose I can only speak of personal experiences. When I joined CN...your right I had several messages telling me to join this and join that alliance. In fact I had *too* many. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know *anything* about what an alliance was, why they were important, or if I *could* make it on my own. So....like so many do....I didn't join a single one of the alliances that sent me a message.

Your premise implies that a new nation knows how to make sense of the information they are presented. On the contrary they can't make sense of anything. Just like if you yell at a baby to stop crying...it won't. While very simplistic new players are much like new kids. They have all this data before them and they can't do a damn thing with it. Its confusion. They need time to figure things out and make a rational decision based on a fair analysis of the data.

If they are raided within a week or month...I don't think that gives them a fair shot to even come close to the world that is planet bob. At least it wasn't for when I started.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Egwaterboy61

[Margrave]

No, but making useless discussion topics about morality is.

[Bob Janova]

If you think it isn't, then either (i) you don't consider nations not in an alliance, or in an alliance that is not large enough, to be real nations, or (ii) you don't consider beating people up to steal their stuff to be immoral. [i][OOC: I also agree with Eg's point about it making the game unfun for new players. But this thread asks about IC morality.][/i]

[Tautology]

I think the range of IC personas is a little more complex and varied than pirate or choirboy, Bob. Think about some of the other ways you could approach it.

[Chatul]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1285079182' post='2459972'][quote='Chatul']((OOC: In a game of, say, basketball, is it morally wrong to steal the ball?))

Is it morally wrong to violently take what you could have gained peacefully?
Is it wrong to spread destruction rather than beauty, famine rather than plenty, death rather than life?
Is it evil to do the opposite of what the Creator does?
If these things are not wicked, please sir, tell me what is!

((OOC: Translation: Raiding is wonderful because it provides villains to a nation's story ;] )) [/quote]
Basketball is an excellent sport and I think that I speak for everyone in Basketball Ninjas when I say that every nation on Planet Bob would do well to have their own team!

Regarding your question, I don't think it makes a good comparison. There are rules in basketball, which include rules about stealing. A steal in basketball occurs when a DEFENSIVE player LEGALLY gains control of the ball from an offensive player. Thus it would be more like a nation getting tech raided and then successfully fighting back and "stealing" his or her original tech back. Also, the steal is considered "foul" if the person doing the stealing touches the offensive player's hands. A "touching" is a given in the case of declaring war. Finally, there is the entire issue that the players in a basketball game agree that 1) it is a game 2) X and Y are the rules and 3) no one is killed as a result (OOC: I'm role-playing, thank you).

A nation that is attacked for technology never agreed to the war in the first place.
[/quote]
((OOC: You do realize that you've responded to something no character said, right? Chatul agreed fully with you at that moment in his development. The real me was brushing off what Chatul was about to say next. So I guess I can't really respond IC because it doesn't quite make sense... I should maybe have picked a different game as an example, though; thanks.))

Edited September 24, 2010 by Chatul