Joint VE/GOONS Announcement

[maxnmike]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1283149117' post='2435569']
maxnmike, you're wasting your time trying to reason with with one of these new goons. Their goal here [b][i]is[/i][/b] to be obtuse. It seems also to amuse some in the VE, so whatever.
[/quote]

I suppose you are correct. I will go find something else to amuse myself with now.

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='maxnmike' timestamp='1283149549' post='2435577']
I suppose you are correct. I will go find something else to amuse myself with now.
[/quote]

Well if you are getting more entertainment out of this than they are, by all means continue.

[nutkase]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283144374' post='2435504']
You make zero sense.
[/quote]

Actually it makes a lot of sense. People coming to your defense implies you cannot defend yourself.


[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1283144807' post='2435515']

Fantastic contribution. Well researched, reasoned, and written. Truly those two words shall move mountains.

[/quote]

The irony here is astounding.


[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1283147142' post='2435543']
You have no clue how arguments work, do you?

I have made a statement, a factually correct one at that. You have come in here with an (incorrect) counter-argument, which you did not back up in any way. I have successfully swept away everything you have brought so far.
[/quote]

Actually your statement contains no facts of any caliber, as Max has stated before it is a personnel opinion of your's rather then one made by facts. Nor have you backed up your statement in any way or fashion.

EDIT: My wording fails

Edited August 30, 2010 by nutkase

[nippy]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1283150658' post='2435585']
Actually it makes a lot of sense. People coming to your defense implies you cannot defend yourself.
[/quote]

That's like saying buying car insurance isn't protecting yourself from possible legal issues later. The smart person buys car insurance...the dumb person stops driving because they don't want to go through the trouble of buying car insurance.

[nutkase]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283180994' post='2435810']
That's like saying buying car insurance isn't protecting yourself from possible legal issues later. The smart person buys car insurance...the dumb person stops driving because they don't want to go through the trouble of buying car insurance.
[/quote]

If you are in a 1v1 alliance war and you call in a ally, it would seem that you cannot defend yourself thus making you weak and should not exist. The size or number of the opposite alliance does not matter, considering the blanket theory by your fellow member.

[Sardonic]

My personal opinion on this matter is that might does not make right, it makes what [b]is[/b].

Regardless, this treaty is not any sort of power grab by either alliance to attain some high position of power over others. This treaty represents a growing friendship and partnership between the two alliances.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Sardonic

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Boy you guys sure are angry about this treaty.

I on the other hand am not, Congrats you two.

[Heinlander]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1283181730' post='2435815']
If you are in a 1v1 alliance war and you call in a ally, it would seem that you cannot defend yourself thus making you weak and should not exist. The size or number of the opposite alliance does not matter, considering the blanket theory by your fellow member.
[/quote]Treaties are resources, not admissions of weakness. Political wrangling is just as much a skill as building an army. Why shouldn't a nation make use of those resources for the greatest possible gain?

[nippy]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1283181730' post='2435815']
If you are in a 1v1 alliance war and you call in a ally, it would seem that you cannot defend yourself thus making you weak and should not exist. The size or number of the opposite alliance does not matter, considering the blanket theory by your fellow member.
[/quote]

Which part of this argument should be tackled first? The suggestion that 1v1 alliance wars happen in this day and age? The suggestion that use of allies is a cowardly move? Your choice in goon to argue with? Seriously, you've been around a while...I'm pretty sure you know better.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1283035550' post='2434256']
Those who cannot defend themselves don't deserve to exist. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

Oh, my. I am simply salivating at the chance to eviscerate this particular ideological proposal. But my crystal ball predicts a strong chance of arguments veering wildly off-topic with a slight chance of butthurt. Smug expected for late afternoon.

And also, I doubt the author put it forth as an actual point to argue from and more of a taunt. Oh well.


Anyway, I already hailed or booed this announcement. So rabble rabble something VE darkside.

[nippy]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1283195056' post='2435971']
Oh, my. I am simply salivating at the chance to eviscerate this particular ideological proposal. But my crystal ball predicts a strong chance of arguments veering wildly off-topic with a slight chance of butthurt. Smug expected for late afternoon.

And also, I doubt the author put it forth as an actual point to argue from and more of a taunt. Oh well.


Anyway, I already hailed or booed this announcement. So rabble rabble something VE darkside.
[/quote]

I commend my dear Kzopp over this post and anticipate future posts from this fine gentleman. Well stated. Congratulations, good sir, on being a most notable personality.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283195721' post='2435981']
I commend my dear Kzopp over this post and anticipate future posts from this fine gentleman. Well stated. Congratulations, good sir, on being a most notable personality.
[/quote]

Anything for you, nippy.

I wouldn't have even bothered posting if this CEverettKoop (lol, Koop neckbeard is best neckbeard) hadn't already come out of the gate with a few nice swings. Good show, you terrible !@#$%^&. I'll have to catch him in a more suitable topic.

Anyway, carry on.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Reptyler]

ODP of the year right here. The whiners came out in spades for this one. Tungsten's posts about summed it up for me... all of them that I can remember reading in this 27 page monstrosity.

Also: I totally disagree with your argument, Bergini. Just because I'd do bigger and better things with your stuff doesn't give me the right to take it. Granted, this is just a game, but I still find it highly distasteful.

Thank you to RV and Schatt for giving Impero something useful to do. I'm really quite impressed with how handily he's handled this thread. I typically pick on him and his style of rhetoric on our little VE boards, but this kind of thread is right up his alley. Good show, chaps, good show.

[Jgoods45]

Can't really remember when an ODoAP got this much attention. But anyways, congratulations to you both.

[Bob]

good luck to you both i guess

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1283402453' post='2438883']
Can't really remember when an ODoAP got this much attention. But anyways, congratulations to you both.
[/quote]
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=38963

Actually that one got more replies.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1283425767' post='2439049']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=38963

Actually that one got more replies.
[/quote]

I didn't read past the first page, but it seemed like mostly hails to me.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1283427095' post='2439054']
I didn't read past the first page, but it seemed like mostly hails to me.
[/quote]
You should try reading it then.

The drama starts about post 48, and is going in full blast by post 100.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1283427570' post='2439057']
You should try reading it then.

The drama starts about post 48, and is going in full blast by post 100.
[/quote]

:effort:

Okay, I actually read a bit further this time, but it's not really that relevant to VE/GOONS. *shrugs* Besides, Jgoods' point was that this was receiving a lot of attention for an ODOAP, not that it was *the* biggest drama over an ODOAP ever.

(I'm in an argumentative mood tonight.)

[Bob Janova]

Is that Agora? That was different in that it was a colour based bloc/economic treaty with one alliance 'mysteriously' from a different colour. I mean, if you don't see that that was an attempt by the NPO to muscle in on the BLEU Economic Treaty and NpO's influence, you're being intentionally naive. It's not really comparable to a bilateral ODP.

[Teddyyo]

Congrats to both parties. Any friend of VE is a friend of mine, GOONS or not.

I guess this is a ODoAP?

o/Viridia
o/GOONS
o/Friends

Tedd.

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1283433026' post='2439089']
Any friend of VE is a friend of mine, GOONS or not.
[/quote]

That's some pretty awesome blind loyalty. Since I love loyalty, I love you, no matter where your loyalties are.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283428169' post='2439063']
Is that Agora? That was different in that it was a colour based bloc/economic treaty with one alliance 'mysteriously' from a different colour. I mean, if you don't see that that was an attempt by the NPO to muscle in on the BLEU Economic Treaty and NpO's influence, you're being intentionally naive. It's not really comparable to a bilateral ODP.
[/quote]
Or, it could be a desperate attempt by NPO to find tech sellers. Like pretty much every treaty they were signing during that point.

(Want evidence? Every single one of the Agora signatories except NPO had a surplus of tech sellers at the time.)

Anyway the point is it was an ODP which generated a mysteriously large amount of drama. Just like this one.

[Andre27]

I thought that perhaps given some time i could see why VE entered into this pact, but alas.

I cannot believe that VE leadership and membership is so naive to believe this GOONS is any different that the former GOONS.
The only difference is that they have not yet had the chance to wreck damage on the previous scale.

But i think VE government knows this already or they would have signed a more solid treaty instead of the optional defence / optional aggression

Move away from that train wreck waiting to happen VE before it is too late.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Andre27

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1283436010' post='2439125']
I thought that perhaps given some time i could see why VE entered into this pact, but alas.

I cannot believe that VE leadership and membership is so naive to believe this GOONS is any different that the former GOONS.
The only difference is that they have not yet had the chance to wreck damage on the previous scale.

But i think VE government knows this already or they would have signed a more solid treaty instead of the optional defence / optional aggression

Move away from that train wreck waiting to happen VE before it is too late.
[/quote]

This GOONS is different--though certainly it contains some notables from the old regime as Schatt revealed previously. This version spends more time raiding unaligned nations and small alliances than any other alliance on Planet Bob, something that the old GOONS was known to do, though \m/ was more noted for it in ancient times. This version also [i]acts[/i] as though it has Planet Bob all figured out and its members like to try to shout down contrary opinions on the OWF as coming from 'stupid' or 'ignorant' people. Old GOONS was, as memory serves, more likely simply to attack. It's tempting to call this version of GOONS (as a number of old GOONS have I've talked to) a low rent, less classy, yappy version of GOONS, but I think that ignores the fact that this version does seem to have learned at least some of the lessons of 2007.

Still, having had some reflection time on the topic of this treaty, it goes against the public image that VE worked so hard to instill after its restoration. Not that VE is/was ever a pure and righteous as the driven snow, just that...of all the alliances that you would picture them treatying with, GOONS wasn't one of them. One of two things is therefore I think true of this treaty...

1. It's an effort by GOONS to work toward some sort of "legitimacy" in the world community.
2. It's an attempt by VE to strengthen its ties to the C&G portion of SG megabloc and/or an effort to toughen VE's image.

Could be both are true. We'll see.