Joint VE/GOONS Announcement

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282928350' post='2432885']
bla bla bla GOONS VE ...
Regardless of how you perceive my way of running it or how often I spend with it. For you to decide I'm not using my resources well enough and 'take them' - is an even bigger infringement on sovereignty than the reasons for the last war against us.
[/quote]
GOONS does not recognize the sovereignty of individual nations, that's the legal justification for why our members are able to tech raid. Our moral calculus is based on alliances, not nations.

[Bergerland]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1282928023' post='2432882']
What you are basically doing is legalizing theft, their nation is their possession. They can do whatever they want to it and it still remains their possession.

Let me give you a example, my nation is next to yours. I decide not to mine the gold on my land, does this give you the right to march in seize the land and mine it yourself?
[/quote]

Given that I know you're not a neglectful ruler, no.

Just to make it clear, I don't raid and wouldn't if I could. I think it's a waste of my nation's resources given the risk/reward, but I also think there is a logical argument to be made for the practice.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282928837' post='2432894']
GOONS does not recognize the sovereignty of individual nations, that's the legal justification for why our members are able to tech raid. Our moral calculus is based on alliances, not nations.
[/quote]

Well that's already quite clear. So then we can stop the circular argument that you are different from the GOONS of old, and that you actually are just like them.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Rayvon

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282929289' post='2432901']
Well that's already quite clear. So then we can stop the circular argument that you are different from the GOONS of old, and that you actually are just like them.
[/quote]
By that logic all alliances that tech raid are the same as the old GOONS.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282929492' post='2432904']
By that logic all alliances that tech raid are the same as the old GOONS.
[/quote]
Including VE during Rayvon's tenure as Lord.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1282928854' post='2432896']
Given that I know you're not a neglectful ruler, no.

Just to make it clear, I don't raid and wouldn't if I could. I think it's a waste of my nation's resources given the risk/reward, but I also think there is a logical argument to be made for the practice.
[/quote]

Yes there is a logical argument that it is done to progress your nation at the expense of others, classic big brother beating up smaller brother method.

I just disagree with what you previously said.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1282929664' post='2432905']
Including VE during Rayvon's tenure as Lord.
[/quote]
I think my irony meter just broke.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282929492' post='2432904']
By that logic all alliances that tech raid are the same as the old GOONS.
[/quote]

No. The discussion all along hasn't even been on the act of tech raiding itself. It's been about the methodology behind it. You're 'requirements' to gain peace and whatnot. Not comparable in any way to other raiding alliances.

GOD doesn't require such. NSO doesn't. VE didn't when they allowed raiding. ... Go down the list, find even one alliance that is comparable to GOONS.


And yes Ardus - I was the only Lord that allowed it wasn't I?. Really.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282930012' post='2432913']
And yes Ardus - I was the only Lord that allowed it wasn't I?. Really.
[/quote]
Not by a long shot. I was the one who made it possible, having re-written the charter and all. Tech-raiding didn't get restricted again until I put Corn in power.

I think all us alliance-folk have a burden to carry the torch of civilization to the unwashed masses of None.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282930012' post='2432913']
No. The discussion all along hasn't even been on the act of tech raiding itself. It's been about the methodology behind it. You're 'requirements' to gain peace and whatnot. Not comparable in any way to other raiding alliances.
[/quote]
"My Am" requirements for peace for raid targets were posted on the previous page, why are you ignoring the facts?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1282930187' post='2432915']
Not by a long shot. I was the one who made it possible, having re-written the charter and all. Tech-raiding didn't get restricted again until I put Corn in power.

I think all us alliance-folk have a burden to carry the torch of civilization to the unwashed masses of None.
[/quote]

Of course. I'm well aware. But you're previous statement put the burden solely on me. I didn't have the sole power to change the Charter. That had to go through the Parliament. Viridia has always been split on raiding.

But again - raiding itself isn't the issue. I've always said, even when being blackmailed by certain 'high profile' members, that it's an individual's right. I would never have condoned such ways of obtaining peace like forcing them to join an alliance (or otherwise quit the game since that's the only other option) or to have to humiliate themselves for my entertainment so they could achieve peace.

[Mandolus]

Your thinly veiled, pathetic attempt to make VE regret this treaty by dredging up the same old tired stupid boring arguments yet again is noted, so why don't you nerds let this topic die instead of turning it into yet another 75 page circular wank fest about raiding?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282930728' post='2432920']
Of course. I'm well aware. But you're previous statement put the burden solely on me. I didn't have the sole power to change the Charter. That had to go through the Parliament. Viridia has always been split on raiding.[/quote]

A concerted effort could have easily changed the policy. That changing the tech-raiding policy was performed quickly after Corn took over, when his command and influence was at its weakest, shows how simple it could be.

My statement did not put the burden solely on you but only noted that the burden was indeed on you. To take offense at the practice (and in particular GOONS' regulations with regard to it) reeks of hypocrisy given that you made little effort to change it in VE despite ample opportunity.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll let you and Sardonic get back at it. Just wanted to stop in and give that little alley-oop.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1282931400' post='2432925']
A concerted effort could have easily changed the policy. That changing the tech-raiding policy was performed quickly after Corn took over, when his command and influence was at its weakest, shows how simple it could be.

My statement did not put the burden solely on you but only noted that the burden was indeed on you. To take offense at the practice (and in particular GOONS' regulations with regard to it) reeks of hypocrisy given that you made little effort to change it in VE despite ample opportunity.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll let you and Sardonic get back at it. Just wanted to stop in and give that little alley-oop.
[/quote]

There's no hypocrisy here. Yet again - I am NOT saying anything about the act of tech raiding, as much as I personally don't like it ... What I AM talking about, and what I HAVE been talking about - is the methods of achieving peace afterwards.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282931697' post='2432928']
There's no hypocrisy here. Yet again - I am NOT saying anything about the act of tech raiding, as much as I personally don't like it ... What I AM talking about, and what I HAVE been talking about - is the methods of achieving peace afterwards.
[/quote]
Methods of achieving peace which are the same as any other tech raiding alliances'. Our special system is in addition to the traditional methods. You have continually ignored the facts at every turn, I can only assume that you are here to slander us. If this is the case, I must ask you to leave.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Sardonic

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282931697' post='2432928']
There's no hypocrisy here. Yet again - I am NOT saying anything about the act of tech raiding, as much as I personally don't like it ... What I AM talking about, and what I HAVE been talking about - is the methods of achieving peace afterwards.
[/quote]

Do you seriously expect people to take the arguments of a guy with "Propagandist" in his signature seriously?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282932054' post='2432937']
Methods of achieving peace which are the same as any other tech raiding alliances'. Our special system is in addition to the traditional methods. You have continually ignored the facts at every turn, I can only assume that you are here to slander us. If this is the case, I must ask you to leave.
[/quote]

If you must ask, then ask.

Slander is the way of your new friends. Is it not acceptable when the tables are turned? Is your skin not thick enough to handle it?

Personally, I'd find it extremely slanderous to tell me (again, from the p.o.v. of the raidee, not saying I've been raided by a GOON at any point) I don't care enough about my nation that I must follow your rules to achieve peace.

"Traditional methods" are 'PM for peace' .. Direct between Raider and Raidee. No public spectacle. No humiliation. No problems.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282932520' post='2432943']
"Traditional methods" are 'PM for peace' .. Direct between Raider and Raidee. No public spectacle. No humiliation. No problems.
[/quote]
And then what? They could easily just get raided again by somebody else in the alliance or another. Completing a challenge on the mercy board gets you permanent immunity from our raiding anyway. Better still would be to join an alliance or get a protectorate. Permanent solutions are better.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Sardonic

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282932787' post='2432948']
And then what? They could easily just get raided again by somebody else in the alliance or another. Completing a challenge on the mercy board gets you permanent immunity from our raiding anyway. Better still would be to join an alliance or get a protectorate. Permanent solutions are better.
[/quote]

So you're saying it's your place to determine/force/coerce whether someone joins an alliance or quits the game.

Plenty of alliances add people to a 'Do Not Raid' list after they've been hit once. And not a single one of them requires the nation to do anything to get on that list.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282933278' post='2432956']
Plenty of alliances add people to a 'Do Not Raid' list after they've been hit once. And not a single one of them requires the nation to do anything to get on that list.
[/quote]
Okay, name some.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282933400' post='2432958']
Okay, name some.
[/quote]

The above named raiding alliances to start .. I'm multi-tasking far too much at the moment [OOC: RL work mixed with some ingame distractions] to go digging through charters to give you clear examples.

I challenge you to show me even ONE single alliance other than GOONS that requires a nation to actually do anything to get peace.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282934334' post='2432973']
I challenge you to show me even ONE single alliance other than GOONS that requires a nation to actually do anything to get peace.
[/quote]
If I recall correctly, most ask for a PM. That's something.

Regardless, this appeal to popularity is a distraction from the argument. The vast majority of alliances require applicants to peace out existing wars before allowing them to join. Does that make you want NSO to operate that way?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282934334' post='2432973']
I challenge you to show me even ONE single alliance other than GOONS that requires a nation to actually do anything to get peace.
[/quote]


Who cares? They have to make an MS Paint comic or write a short story.

[i]The horror.[/i] Seriously it's something that takes at most ten minutes to do. If they're not willing to do it to save their nation then they don't have a place here. The world is rough, get used to it.

edit: spelling

Edited August 27, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Rayvon]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1282934796' post='2432979']
If I recall correctly, most ask for a PM. That's something.

Regardless, this appeal to popularity is a distraction from the argument. The vast majority of alliances require applicants to peace out existing wars before allowing them to join. Does that make you want NSO to operate that way?
[/quote]
The discussion has been about how peace is obtained (read: forced upon those who don't desire to play the game from our realm), not about whether or not it's required to be at peace when joining an alliance.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1282934803' post='2432980']
Who cares? They have to make an MS Paint comic or write a short story.

[i]The horror.[/i] Seriously it's something that takes at most ten minutes to do. If they're not willing to do it to save their nation then they don't have a place here. The world is rough, get used to it.

edit: spelling
[/quote]

Glad to know the Viridian Entente is now the authority on who is capable or deserves to play this game.

[OOC: it's been fun. Conference call is done, I have a meeting with the boss to go to. Working from home sucks ass sometimes, but convenient in others]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282934334' post='2432973']
I challenge you to show me even ONE single alliance other than GOONS that requires a nation to actually do anything to get peace.
[/quote]
Sorry, the burden of proof is on you, accuser, and I still haven't seen you name anyone significant who uses your ridiculous "hit once then add to no raid list" method.