In Response to Recent Drama

[savethecheerleader]

The day this treaty was signed, I pondered to myself "welp, I wonder how GATO is gonna get out of this one...". I guess I have my answer now. Weak CB, weak cancellation... those of you who ridicule NSO's "martyr complex" sure are doing your part to feed it.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Argin' timestamp='1281411583' post='2408991']
I haven't read the thread but I've heard you guys are getting a lot of flack for this so I just wanted to show you some love.

To anyone criticizing GATO please remember that they also had allies on the other side, VE, and no matter what they had to make a hard choice.

o/ GATO
May you forever continue to thrive
[/quote]

Translation: "I have no idea what I'm talking about so I'm just going to say "yay GATO" and hope no one notices."

For your information, NSO asked no allies assist them so GATO had no hard choice to make at all with regards to war commitment.

[quote]
They did tell NSO as was required of them by their treaty and NSO did know already that they would be attacked and as per their treaty were required to inform GATO. Why is it a bad thing to expect people to honor the promises they make in their treaties?
[/quote]

By the same token, why didn't GATO inform NSO of impending war as per the treaty? They had been told by their allies on the other side and had, apparently, heard nothing from the NSO about it. The bottom line is that GATO wanted to cancel this treaty and they took this as their chance to do it while on the moral high ground. Most people can see through that. If you want to cancel a treaty then just be honest about it or, more importantly, stop signing high level treaties for show rather than substance in the first place.

[Chief Savage Man]

I believe GATO did tell NSO about it which is why the attacks had to go off early and with more people than planned.

Unless I'm misremembering.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281416808' post='2409134']
I believe GATO did tell NSO about it which is why the attacks had to go off early and with more people than planned.

Unless I'm misremembering.
[/quote]

So, that kind of cancels out the GATO "we didn't know!" excuse then whichever way it panned out.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281416670' post='2409131']
By the same token, why didn't GATO inform NSO of impending war as per the treaty? They had been told by their allies on the other side and had, apparently, heard nothing from the NSO about it. The bottom line is that GATO wanted to cancel this treaty and they took this as their chance to do it while on the moral high ground. Most people can see through that. If you want to cancel a treaty then just be honest about it or, more importantly, stop signing high level treaties for show rather than substance in the first place.
[/quote]

Omni did inform NSO of the impending attack. As it is GATO is being viewed by some as a security leak now.

GATO never had plans to cancel this treaty. As far as I know there are very few members who speak poorly of NSO within our alliance. NSO have been good friends. We've been planning a join venture for awhile now which was a day from fruition. I loved working with NSO. I have not seen any signs from our Gov that shows they felt otherwise.

GATO made a mistake from what looks like a knee jerk reaction to feeling left out and maybe a little paranoia. I can't speak for everyone for their reasons here. Perhaps something will come to light on how this decision was ultimately reached. I wish I had been there for it. I would've railed against this course of action.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281416967' post='2409140']
So, that kind of cancels out the GATO "we didn't know!" excuse then whichever way it panned out.
[/quote]

I think Omni's gripe is we should've found out from NSO and not VE who wasn't even directly involved.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281365810' post='2407529']
Actually I'm pretty sure Polar came knocking during that incident. So saying they weren't faced with war when that broke would be incorrect.
[/quote]
Yep.

Polar also came and negotiated with their leadership, and talked with their allies.

A better comparison would be what Polar did with \m/, but even there it was a bunch longer than 24 hours before the war began.

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367430' post='2407591']
I really don't know why GATO allies are attempting to defend this move. GATO $%&@ed up and I'd be embarrassed to be allied to them. You sign a MDP level treaty and a certain level of spirit and friendship is signed along with it. This friendship goes beyond the letter and word of any piece of e-paper. What GATO has done is shown they hold no respect for any treaty they currently hold. It's all a matter of convenience for them. Perhaps that LoSS treaty will continue to be special. We all know they love to switch sides before a major beat down. So congratulations GATO on !@#$@#$ up any chance of securing future treaties. You'd have to be a fool to sign with you.
[/quote]
This war is forcing me to agree with Poison Clan. OK.

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281369014' post='2407643']We love to switch sides before a beat down? Haven't we been beat down the most?[/quote]
No, you haven't.

Probably TPF wins that award actually. NPO's certainly lost the most total NS of any alliance ever.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281373426' post='2407786']
Hint: Don't offer protection for people until you know why they need it.
[/quote]
People who join alliances generally get protection. This is why they join alliances.

I know, VE doesn't really protect its members, but other alliances do care about their members.

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281378471' post='2407955']
Okay, if anyone is seriously trying to paint the NSO as a BAD ALLY, just stop. They weren't.
[/quote]
Er, that's what the OP claims, which was posted by your alliance.

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281381116' post='2408067']
We don't sign treaties for "strategic reasons" and treat people like they are disposable, we sign them out of friendship and we are loyal to the people we sign with.
[/quote]
Oh this is funny.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281417224' post='2409149']
I think Omni's gripe is we should've found out from NSO and not VE who wasn't even directly involved.
[/quote]

Not much of a gripe if you ask me. War is hell, information can come from anywhere, and dang it the first thing I'd do when I learn that one of my MDP partners is about to be attacked is ask how I can help, not find a loophole to get myself out of the way.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281417224' post='2409149']
I think Omni's gripe is we should've found out from NSO and not VE who wasn't even directly involved.
[/quote]

From what I'm reading they knew about what was about to happen before the NSO did. So, the cancellation reason is a a flimsy one based on what has been stated in this discussion. Expecting NSO to inform GATO when GATO had, apparently, already told NSO what was happening seems asinine to me.

[Chief Savage Man]

It's a valid reason to cancel based on the treaty but treaties are supposed to mean more than the words on the paper as far as I'm concerned. It's not about what the treaty says but what it means to you and it is evident that it means little to GATO.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281418408' post='2409194']
It's a valid reason to cancel based on the treaty but treaties are supposed to mean more than the words on the paper as far as I'm concerned. It's not about what the treaty says but what it means to you and it is evident that it means little to GATO.
[/quote]

I'd go so far as to call the cancellation against the spirit of the treaty even though it was technically legal. That kind of clause is meant to warn the other party of longer term threats against them. I don't imagine it was ever intended to be used as a get out of fail free card whenever your ally is about to be attacked and you hear of it before they do.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281418408' post='2409194']
It's a valid reason to cancel based on the treaty but treaties are supposed to mean more than the words on the paper as far as I'm concerned. It's not about what the treaty says but what it means to you and it is evident that it means little to GATO.
[/quote]

It is just an opportunistic use of the "lack of communication" excuse to get rid of a treaty they obviously no longer wanted. I agree.

If GATO came out and said they cancelled because they did not value the treaty it would have been far better, in my opinion. Better still if it wasn't right at the moment their now former ally was in some sort of trouble. NSO had not sought GATO's or anyone elses' assistance so I don't see the mad rush to trot out a half-arsed cancellation in the manner that they did.

[Argin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281417586' post='2409166']

People who join alliances generally get protection. This is why they join alliances.

I know, VE doesn't really protect its members, but other alliances do care about their members.

[/quote]

Totally right on this count, VE never protects its members, hey why don't you attack one of them for fun, it's not like we'll do anything?

[Mussolandia]

This is not the first treaty that is canceled because of impending war, but it is the first Mutual Defense Pact that is canceled because one of the parties was attacked. Well done, GATO, you have managed to create a logical paradox of numbing proportions

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281417586' post='2409166']

I know, VE doesn't really protect its members, but other alliances do care about their members.
[/quote]

Where in gods name did you even get that from? Not a rhetorical question either, I actually want to know what prompted you to say that or do you just literally post anything mildly insulting that comes into your head when your making a response to someone.

[quote]
Oh this is funny.
[/quote]

It is funny. You're funny. You really are a funny guy.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1281420040' post='2409242']
Where in gods name did you even get that from? Not a rhetorical question either, I actually want to know what prompted you to say that or do you just literally post anything mildly insulting that comes into your head when your making a response to someone.[/quote]

Impero, I would like to introduce you to Haflinger. Get used to such posts.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281417586' post='2409166']
I know, VE doesn't really protect its members, but other alliances do care about their members.
[/quote]

To hell with baiting NPO into war, let's bait Invicta into war. CB: Haflinger melted my brain.

[Jens of the desert]

This is once again a massive disappointment, GATO. Maybe one day you'll be able to see that actions should not only be influenced by reason, but also by emotion.

[orangbaik]

Dropping a treaty after ally is attacked is such an honorable move.

[Beefspari]

Random thought: NSO doesn't want anyone to help them anyway, so what's it matter if GATO cancelled? They're somehow cowards for walking out on an alliance that doesn't want their help to begin with? Man that's confusing.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281418096' post='2409185']
From what I'm reading they knew about what was about to happen before the NSO did. So, the cancellation reason is a a flimsy one based on what has been stated in this discussion. Expecting NSO to inform GATO when GATO had, apparently, already told NSO what was happening seems asinine to me.
[/quote]

I think Omni's point was he would like to have been notified at the first sign of trouble (ie as soon as Hoo threatened war) and not when war was already imminent.

Don't take it as me agreeing with the way it went down. It's blatantly obvious this was done in way too much of a rush. Hell, I only got to comment on what I thought of what we did and had no input on how we should have went about this. I'm just trying to let you guys know what Omni was thinking as I have heard it. If you're going to give Omni !@#$ over it then at least do it knowing the facts and not arguing falsehoods.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281456597' post='2409755']
Random thought: NSO doesn't want anyone to help them anyway, so what's it matter if GATO cancelled? They're somehow cowards for walking out on an alliance that doesn't want their help to begin with? Man that's confusing.
[/quote]

It's really not about us being cowards Beefspari. Some just don't have the brain to think of any better insults that may actually apply. One reason why I was upset about the way this went down is because it's like watching your friend take an $@! beating and instead of helping the guy up you run over and pour salt in his wounds. You don't do that to people. Especially people that have always stood up for you. If we really thought there was a violation of the treaty we should have waited until this was over and discussed the communication issue with them after. That would have been my advice had I been here. Any person who knows anything about CN politics knows that this kind of action is PR suicide. Believe me I've had some tough words for our leaders who took part in this thing the last few days.

Basically it's not the action Beefspari. It's the timing. Had we canceled on NSO last week for communication issues this thread would have died at 5 pages with a bunch of "sad but necessary" posts. Pouring salt on a supposed friend during a bad time won't earn you much praise except from those who really care about you. Which I appreciate from our allies. Thanks for the support guys.

[Skap Q]

This makes me sad, Omni.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281417586' post='2409166']
No, you haven't.

Probably TPF wins that award actually. NPO's certainly lost the most total NS of any alliance ever.
[/quote]

....FAN? If you consider potential lost, their extended "vacation" in peace mode cost them a staggering amount of potential power.

I was surprised that GATO even signed this treaty in the first place, so seeing them decide to end it isn't a shock. The worst thing you can say about it, is Omni seems to have made a hasty decision while he was still angry about the information issue, and then some members of GATO were in here trying to make it look like it was all NSO's fault and they had voided the treaty. Which, given the speed of events involved looks pretty weak. If you had used any other reason for cancelling besides that I don't think you would have taken anywhere near as much flack. NSO had already cleared the way by not asking their allies to enter this war.

[Louisa]

[quote name='d3filed' timestamp='1281351957' post='2407291']
[IMG]http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8792/lolgato.png[/IMG]


My thoughts on wat is going on here.
[/quote]

GATO would be so much greater under my benevolent rule. Dissidents within the organisation already confessed this months ago, as seen in my proof here:

[img]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r7/Louisa00/gatoblackedition.png[/img]

Just face it, Black makes every thing better, and under my enlightened despotism things like this would not happen.

(PS. This was very poor timing GATO, no matter what other things influenced it.)