Decree of the Sith

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281319699' post='2405959']
key word there is "told" not "provided any proof whatsoever but instead only issued orders as if NSO was not a sovereign alliance that deserved any attempts at respect, cordial behavior, or diplomatic efforts whatsoever."

sorry, but i would have told Van Hoo to $%&@ off if he basically tried to order my alliance to let one of our nations be hit without any proof whatsoever especially after treating me like i and my alliance were his little !@#$%*es to play with as he sees fit.
[/quote]

Except that he was considered a rogue by Ragnarok before you ever accepted him and before he ever applied. He had already hit two TENE nations by that point. I'm sorry, what exactly is the proof you're looking for? I truly have no idea.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281321192' post='2406068']
I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want to ostracize Heft: we were legitimately going to admit to our mistake of sending War Aid. RV even told Hoo this in a query last night. We also had plans to negotiate with RoK. These plans involved kicking Sed out. This is because Hoo finally gave us the proof that we sought for. So basically, we were going to admit that we dropped the ball on this one and were willing to vie for a continuance of peace. But when we came in today, we heard that Hoo already gave the orders last night to go to war on us. So you seem, we were given no wiggle room.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, if all of this is the case, then why didn't the OP of this thread state something along the lines of, "Oops. We were going to kick Sed out, considering the circumstances. Hoo gave us proof of his misdeeds. We dropped the ball. Our bad. Can we apologize, take a little PR hit, and not let this get out of hand?"

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281321192' post='2406068']
I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want to ostracize Heft: we were legitimately going to admit to our mistake of sending War Aid. RV even told Hoo this in a query last night. We also had plans to negotiate with RoK. These plans involved kicking Sed out. This is because Hoo finally gave us the proof that we sought for. So basically, we were going to admit that we dropped the ball on this one and were willing to vie for a continuance of peace. But when we came in today, we heard that Hoo already gave the orders last night to go to war on us. So you seem, we were given no wiggle room.

Which is also fine because I would've done the same. Drop the boot on those you hate; show them no mercy. But I wouldn't be hiding under some stupid CB like this. "I would come out and say that we are declaring war because we dislike you. We are using this event as a pretense for such war." And then let the hate flow. I like to be honest about most things because they tend to make things more fun.
[/quote]

Well we'll see how that pans out for you if there are negotiations to end this already. Maybe this will teach you to think before you act in future.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281321308' post='2406074']
do you see how 3 out of 5 of those avoidance procedures all originate with RoK?
[/quote]

What about Ivan? He started NSO and brought about the "We accept people on ZI lists and whatnot". Is that 4/7 leaning toward NSO now?

We can play this game, but it is silly.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1281321399' post='2406075']
Except that he was considered a rogue by Ragnarok before you ever accepted him and before he ever applied. He had already hit two TENE nations by that point. I'm sorry, what exactly is the proof you're looking for? I truly have no idea.
[/quote]

I am IAA not NSO. the wars were against TENE not RoK and explained by sedrick to NSO and obviously was accepted by NSO. the proof that needed to be given was the proof that Hoo finally gave NSO before he decided to DoW them.

so all ya'll saying "THERE WAS PROOF. HOO SAID SO!!!!" does not actually equal any proof that what Hoo said was actually true. it only equals what Hoo believed to be true based off of proof that he had received from TENE.

come on, it is quite simple to realize what proof needed to be given in any rogue situation. especially one with claims of spying done by both sides and threats of war by both sides being issued (talking TENE/Sedrick). it is not really that hard of a concept to know what proof i am talkin about.

[LucasSnow]

It's not even the CB that's ridiculous here, it's how RoK pulled it off.

NSO: "Hey Let's Talk"
RoK: "Okay we can work this out, I need to get my boss though and we'll get you the logs and stuff in a bit. just wait."
NSO: "Okay cool"
NSO: *turns around*
Rok: *calls allies and stabs NSO in the back while they aren't looking*

Look! I can make ridiculous looking stories to.

Honestly though, saying you're going to talk it over and send someone the evidence and then just out right attacking them as soon as they look the other way, while still waiting, is a plain and simple dirty move. There is 0 honor in it and this action alone nullifies any and all "right over wrong" you may have held in this. And then to get your allies involved in it to. Wow, I guess CN really is run by a bunch of kids huh?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281321630' post='2406090']
What about Ivan? He started NSO and brought about the "We accept people on ZI lists and whatnot". Is that 4/7 leaning toward NSO now?

We can play this game, but it is silly.
[/quote]

your point in that? that was a while ago for one. and even when that occurs, it seems that diplomacy usually prevails since we have not heard of any other wars being launched against NSO over people on ZI lists and whatnot. so yes, you can play this game all you want, but you will fail as you have thus far.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281321715' post='2406094']
so all ya'll saying "THERE WAS PROOF. HOO SAID SO!!!!" does not actually equal any proof that what Hoo said was actually true.
[/quote]

Hey Dochartaigh. Check this out.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281321192' post='2406068']
I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want to ostracize Heft: we were legitimately going to admit to our mistake of sending War Aid. RV even told Hoo this in a query last night. We also had plans to negotiate with RoK. These plans involved kicking Sed out. This is because [b]Hoo finally gave us the proof that we sought for.[/b] So basically, we were going to admit that we dropped the ball on this one and were willing to vie for a continuance of peace.
[/quote]

Alright, enough of the broken record. Thanks for playing.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Whitney

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1281321399' post='2406075']
Except that he was considered a rogue by Ragnarok before you ever accepted him and before he ever applied. He had already hit two TENE nations by that point. I'm sorry, what exactly is the proof you're looking for? I truly have no idea.
[/quote]

He isnt looking for any, he is looking for talking points he can create in his mind to attempt to say something relevant to his personal dislikes. Sadly for him, this one is pretty cut and dry and has no ambaquity. We told them, before they did so that sending this person aid would be considered an act of war based on the rogue action against TENE.

They chose to do it anyway, and no amount of shouting from doch can change the facts.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='LucasSnow' timestamp='1281321739' post='2406096']
Honestly though, saying you're going to talk it over and send someone the evidence and then just out right attacking them as soon as they look the other way, while still waiting, is a plain and simple dirty move. There is 0 honor in it and this action alone nullifies any and all "right over wrong" you may have held in this. And then to get your allies involved in it to. Wow, I guess CN really is run by a bunch of kids huh?
[/quote]

Thats a pretty rich statement coming from an NPO member, I can sleep easy tonight now. Ive seen a lot of lulz this evening this one is pretty dam good, thanks man!

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281321429' post='2406078']
Out of curiosity, if all of this is the case, then why didn't the OP of this thread state something along the lines of, "Oops. We were going to kick Sed out, considering the circumstances. Hoo gave us proof of his misdeeds. We dropped the ball. Our bad. Can we apologize, take a little PR hit, and not let this get out of hand?"
[/quote]

Because we were in the right for most of the time. We have been accepting rogue members and ZI'd members since the founding of our alliance. We might have not always been aiding such members, but that was our mistake.

But, here no one gave us the option for admitting to our mistake, and now we're sitting in the middle of a curbstomp because Hoo and friends didn't want to negotiate with us. If they don't want to negotiate with us, why in the world would we apologize to them now? We're not in the habit for begging for mercy and giving our enemies what they want when we're getting rolled. No. We can take it.

[quote]Well we'll see how that pans out for you if there are negotiations to end this already. Maybe this will teach you to think before you act in future.[/quote]

It was a mistake. We've all made them.

And there are no negotiations to end this. At least none that I know of.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281321856' post='2406105']
Alright, enough of the broken record. Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

Do you want to see the proof? Because I guarantee you that you will laugh your $@! off.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1281321399' post='2406075']
Except that he was considered a rogue by Ragnarok before you ever accepted him and before he ever applied. He had already hit two TENE nations by that point. I'm sorry, what exactly is the proof you're looking for? I truly have no idea.
[/quote]
I now consider you a rogue. You can no longer be aided by anyone, or I will attack them. I do not need to offer any proof that you are a rogue.

Does that seem fair to you?

[Detlev]

You should change your alliance name to the Drama Queen Order.

[Seth Muscarella]

Good job, NSO.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281320407' post='2406017']
the simple proof that the member actually spied first and threatened war first. Hoo's word means nothing when it is clear he is biased, much like Heft's word where he stated TENE spied first and threatened war first obviously meant nothing since it lacked any proof.

so, you can use cute little pictures all you want but fact is, no ACTUAL PROOF was ever presented by either side in this matter. which again, makes both sides stupid and seemingly far more incompetent than they actually are. Thus, it is quite clear that both sides were looking for a war, only one side though could get the war it wanted and it so happened to be SF.

now SF is attempting to escalate this war far beyond where it should have stayed simply because it can attempt to do so. Either NSO gets crushed and most likely either stays at war or faces harsh reps which we have seen before. or NSO's allies ignore NSO's wish to keep them out and all of them get crushed once again and most likely faces harsh reps again.

you can attempt to deflect all you want, but it is straight up fact that no real proof was ever given, other than Hoo stating something is true.
[/quote]

Did some further digging and was able to come up with the following...

1. A failed spy attempt by a TENE member on Sedrick while he was on the MHA AA two days before Sedrick declared his first war on a TENE member. What's interesting is that that the spy mission that failed was a Change DEFCON Level type and the only reasons you'd launch one of those generally are if you are preparing to attack or screwing with someone just because you can, probably the former.

2. Sedrick's war decs don't include one on the nation that launched the failed spy mission. Kinda odd.

3. Clear evidence that NSO doesn't do a whole lot of background check on potential members....

IMHO, Sedrick had a valid CB on TENE. The smart play however was to let the spy missions go and get under the protection of an alliance as soon as possible. Speaking of that, if Sedrick was a MHA applicant at the time of the spy attacks (that is not clear from the evidence I found)and considers applicants to be covered by their protection, then MHA had/has a valid CB on TENE.

The more I read, kick over rocks and generally look into this, the whole mess is one large shade of gray mosaic with no true hero or true villain and the more it seems that Hoo was so busy organizing an attack with his allies on NSO, that diplomacy wasn't given a fair chance. C'est la guerre.

[Max Cristof]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281322039' post='2406116']
Because we were in the right for most of the time. We have been accepting rogue members and ZI'd members since the founding of our alliance. We might have not always been aiding such members, but that was our mistake.

But, here no one gave us the option for admitting to our mistake, and now we're sitting in the middle of a curbstomp because Hoo and friends didn't want to negotiate with us. If they don't want to negotiate with us, why in the world would we apologize to them now? We're not in the habit for begging for mercy and giving our enemies what they want when we're getting rolled. No. We can take it.
[/quote]
[quote]
So basically, we were going to admit that we dropped the ball on this one and were willing to vie for a continuance of peace. But when we came in today, we heard that Hoo already gave the orders last night to go to war on us.[/quote]

You make it sound here like you were given a chance to admit it but you didn't. Just because your alliance has a tradition of accepting rogues and ZIs doesn't make it right. You must know that some alliance isn't going to take it lightly when you do it to them.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281322039' post='2406116']
Because we were in the right for most of the time. We have been accepting rogue members and ZI'd members since the founding of our alliance. We might have not always been aiding such members, but that was our mistake.

But, here no one gave us the option for admitting to our mistake, and now we're sitting in the middle of a curbstomp because Hoo and friends didn't want to negotiate with us. If they don't want to negotiate with us, why in the world would we apologize to them now? We're not in the habit for begging for mercy and giving our enemies what they want when we're getting rolled. No. We can take it.
[/quote]

I understand the difficult position... I'm just saying, if you had put the following quote as the only contents of the OP, you'd have a better chance of being out of this... you know... right now?

"Oops. We were going to kick Sed out, considering the circumstances. Hoo gave us proof of his misdeeds. We dropped the ball. Our bad. Can we apologize, take a little PR hit, and not let this get out of hand?"

You'd be close to being out of this anyway. Instead this entire thread has been about NSO and Friends saying that they're right. ROK and Friends are wrong. Yahta yahta yahta.

Edit:
[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281322103' post='2406123']
Do you want to see the proof? Because I guarantee you that you will laugh your $@! off.
[/quote]

You made it sound like it was the proof needed to avoid the conflict.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Whitney

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281322270' post='2406138']
I understand the difficult position... I'm just saying, if you had put the following quote as the only contents of the OP, you'd have a better chance of being out of this... you know... right now?

"Oops. We were going to kick Sed out, considering the circumstances. Hoo gave us proof of his misdeeds. We dropped the ball. Our bad. Can we apologize, take a little PR hit, and not let this get out of hand?"

You'd be close to being out of this anyway. Instead this entire thread has been about NSO and Friends saying that they're right. ROK and Friends are wrong. Yahta yahta yahta.
[/quote]

We don't want to get out of this just yet. Why would we? The way I see it, they brought this war to us. They didn't want to negotiate then, so we're not going to negotiate with them now. We're not pansies, and we're certainly not going to be begging like one.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281322363' post='2406143']
We don't want to get out of this just yet. Why would we? The way I see it, they brought this war to us. They didn't want to negotiate then, so we're not going to negotiate with them now. We're not pansies, and we're certainly not going to be begging like one.
[/quote]

Well, that's just silly.

[Nojudfoo]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1281312112' post='2405290']
Whether or not this war is justified, I find it admirable of the NSO to prevent the escalation of war.
[/quote]

I have to agree.

Best of luck to our friends on both sides.

[Batallion]

I wonder if GATO would've actually defended NSO had they not said this

[Sir Glen]

Not that RoK and friends seem to need a CB to justify their actions, but this one is so thin I swear I could read through it. Hoo is worse than any former leader of NPO ever dreamed of being. So, in response to this !@#$%^&* CB, and in particular GODs demand that NSO disband, I now demand that RoK, GOD, TENE and any others involved in that side of the conflict disband. I expect it to be equally as effective as the demand made by GOD. Lol.

o/ NSO, I have nothing but respect for you guys. You play a high-class game, and as a result I know I speak for many players when I say I'm here for you if you decide you want assistance on this one. Just let us know if that time comes. Until then, I'm with you in spirit.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='LucasSnow' timestamp='1281321739' post='2406096']
It's not even the CB that's ridiculous here, it's how RoK pulled it off.

NSO: "Hey Let's Talk"
RoK: "Okay we can work this out, I need to get my boss though and we'll get you the logs and stuff in a bit. just wait."
NSO: "Okay cool"
NSO: *turns around*
Rok: *calls allies and stabs NSO in the back while they aren't looking*

Look! I can make ridiculous looking stories to.

Honestly though, saying you're going to talk it over and send someone the evidence and then just out right attacking them as soon as they look the other way, while still waiting, is a plain and simple dirty move. There is 0 honor in it and this action alone nullifies any and all "right over wrong" you may have held in this. And then to get your allies involved in it to. Wow, I guess CN really is run by a bunch of kids huh?
[/quote]

You'd know something about stabbing people in the back, wouldn't you.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281322270' post='2406138']
You made it sound like it was the proof needed to avoid the conflict.
[/quote]

Yes. There's a lot of people saying ignorant stuff like "he was in two offensive wars, that should be proof enough". That's not proof. That's just circumstantial evidence. We've always been accepting rogues and nations on ZI lists. Once they get accepted, they become members. When they become members, we need to protect them. Being the stubborn people we are, we're not going to sit here and listen to stupid circumstantial crap about him being in two offensive wars. We need concrete evidence before we decide to kick someone, or to allow them to be hit by other alliances.