Decree of the Sith

[agafaba]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1281543317' post='2411167']
I am pretty sure that the Viridian rules are to help applicants get peace from other Alliances when they want to join VE. In which case VE diplomats would help sort out the war and put things right with the attackers, etc.

NSO on the other hand seems to have just accepted Sedrick, and then not done any thing to fix his problems (I understand it that Ragnarok came to you first to fix things, rather than you contacting them about things?)
[/quote]

RoK also declared war before NSO provided any aid. So it was just between Sedric and his former alliance, then RoK joined in, then NSO joined in.

[Cobalt]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281543404' post='2411168']
Our sovereignty and our rights to be who we are won't be infringed.
[/quote]

You can be whatever you want to be. Just do that without accepting nations who are actively at war with another prominent alliance and everything will be peachy keen.

I lol'd at the image, but "send him aid and we'll declare war" isn't much of a stab in the back, its more telling you that you're about to be punched in the face.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281543877' post='2411177']
actively at war with another prominent alliance
[/quote]

So we're back to the 'might makes right'

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281543767' post='2411175']
RoK also declared war before NSO provided any aid. So it was just between Sedric and his former alliance, then RoK joined in, then NSO joined in.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? RoK declared [i]after[/i] the aid was sent, not before.

[CptGodzilla]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281543767' post='2411175']
RoK also declared war before NSO provided any aid. So it was just between Sedric and his former alliance, then RoK joined in, then NSO joined in.
[/quote]

Sedric's former alliance happens to be a protectorate of RoK.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281544124' post='2411181']
So we're back to the 'might makes right'
[/quote]

No, we're back to the "If you're really going to be that stupid, we are going to punch you in the gut and crap in your cereal".

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281544157' post='2411182']
What are you talking about? RoK declared [i]after[/i] the aid was sent, not before.
[/quote]

Did they? Are you sure? Like, really really [i]really[/i] sure?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281544157' post='2411182']
What are you talking about? RoK declared [i]after[/i] the aid was sent, not before.
[/quote]
No, this is not the case.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=22&showentry=2035

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281544426' post='2411188']
Did they? Are you sure? Like, really really [i]really[/i] sure?
[/quote]

Why yes, they did, and (to speak for him) he is sure. Seems the Spin Doctor isn't in right now, so you may want to try again later when your more clever members are present (Corinan, etc.).

EDIT: Interesting stuff in that blog you linked to Haflinger. Not going to recant, but rather confirm/disconfirm it.

Edited August 11, 2010 by SpacingOutMan

[Haflinger]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281544516' post='2411192']
Why yes, they did, and (to speak for him) he is sure. Seems the Spin Doctor isn't in right now, so you may want to try again later when your more clever members are present (Corinan, etc.).
[/quote]
Alas, it is your side that is spinning here.

Unfortunately it's tough to spin what's plainly visible on Sedrick's war and aid screens. Go look. You'll find that the aid was sent 40 minutes after Ragnarok declared war.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281544157' post='2411182']
What are you talking about? RoK declared [i]after[/i] the aid was sent, not before.
[/quote]

The in game event recorder states otherwise, and I doubt its wrong. Look at the war screen and the aid screen for Sedric.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281544854' post='2411195']
The in game event recorder states otherwise, and I doubt its wrong. Look at the war screen and the aid screen for Sedric.
[/quote]

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img]

The ones at the bottom? I guess Haflingers link didn't work for ya, I'll make it easier to see.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281544593' post='2411194']
Alas, it is your side that is spinning here.

Unfortunately it's tough to spin what's plainly visible on Sedrick's war and aid screens. Go look. You'll find that the aid was sent 40 minutes after Ragnarok declared war.
[/quote]
Was Sedric at war with TENE prior to joining NSO? Simple yes or no answer will suffice.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281544593' post='2411194']
Alas, it is your side that is spinning here.

Unfortunately it's tough to spin what's plainly visible on Sedrick's war and aid screens. Go look. You'll find that the aid was sent 40 minutes after Ragnarok declared war.
[/quote]

Oh i see now, you guys are talking of two things here.

Ragnarok engaging Sedrick in war
Ragnarok Declaring war on the NSO

Two different things. Ragnarok and TENE were in battle with the stoy guy. Giving aid to someone that we are at war with, is an act of war as it enables the aid recipient to do further damage, War by proxy, as it were. Now normally this would be easy to understand for anyone that has been in alliance government for any length of time. Why Heft [who is normally rather astute] did not get it, even after being reminded that it would be an act of war, is beyond comprehension to me.

[mike717]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281542821' post='2411159']
Yes I will consider it an act of war. And to answer your question, they are unaligned, they have taken no action to be afforded protection. I am curious though, is NSO an alliance who allowed raiding now in the business of protecting the unaligned?
[/quote]


Free game, is free game. If you are free to attack them i am free to help them. It works both ways. I have no idea what NSO's business is, i'm interested in your hypocrisy.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281544915' post='2411196']
The ones at the bottom? I guess Haflingers link didn't work for ya, I'll make it easier to see.
[/quote]

Haflinger and I were arguing the same point.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281545126' post='2411200']
Free game, is free game. If you are free to attack them i am free to help them. It works both ways. I have no idea what NSO's business is, i'm interested in your hypocrisy.
[/quote]
oh noes, the 'hypocrisy' assault, what ever shall I do. You help one of my raids and I will be nuking you or someone in your alliance with similar NS to me, it is simple.

[Learz]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281543671' post='2411172']
You seem to be missing the point that NSO aided and abetted an enemy of Ragnarok, specifically after being told not to.

NSO has a [i]right[/i] to do anything it wants. But that doesn't make it immune from the punishment.

And how is this in anyway similar to the Popcorn War?
[/quote]
And here we go around the circle again. Sheesh. You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to read stuff, but noooo....
See my posts [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=840&p=2410571&#entry2410571"]here[/url], [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=900&p=2411069&#entry2411069"]here[/url], and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=900&p=2411131&#entry2411131"]here[/url].

The Popcorn War was about some jerks beating up some innocent people minding their own business. Then a bunch of people stepped in to help the victim out.
Here, we have some jerks beating up one innocent person minding his own business. Then a bunch of people stepped in to help the victim out.

[Merrie Melodies]

Let's see if we can't freshen this argument up some. If, as NSO said, they sent aid to help protect one of their members (and they always protect their members, so they say)What makes this new applicant more important than one of your long standing prominent members? Why would you spit in RoK's face for a brand new member and yet let another of your very loyal members go it alone?

Care to answer?

[mike717]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281545269' post='2411203']
oh noes, the 'hypocrisy' assault, what ever shall I do. You help one of my raids and I will be nuking you or someone in your alliance with similar NS to me, it is simple.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, your normally a pretty smart guy and i enjoy reading your posts, even if i disagree. I'm disappointed though that you can't see how dumb that line of logic is. Especially because, hey, if im doing a tech deal with someone who is unaligned, and you raid them, i highly doubt that if i declared on and nuked you out of the blue you'd see that as a reasonable course of action.

But seriously, whatever.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281545639' post='2411211']
I'm sorry, your normally a pretty smart guy and i enjoy reading your posts, even if i disagree. I'm disappointed though that you can't see how dumb that line of logic is. Especially because, hey, if im doing a tech deal with someone who is unaligned, and you raid them, i highly doubt that if i declared on and nuked you out of the blue you'd see that as a reasonable course of action.

But seriously, whatever.
[/quote]
Well, I tend to check the aid screens prior to launching a raid, you know doing a little back ground investigation. Something NSO would have benefited from greatly.
The thing is, NSO selectively picks and chooses who they will intervene for, which makes it all the more curious as to why they would set out to poke RoK to begin with.

Just to avoid the NSO always protects it's members rants.
[quote]
To: Jrenster From: Porky Pig Date: 7/21/2010 2:08:54 PM

Subject: War Declared!
Message: War has been declared on you by Porky Pig for the following reason: Generally insulting behavior
You may access your War & Battles screen to view and manage this war.

To: Jrenster From: Porky Pig Date: 7/21/2010 2:11:31 PM

Subject: Cruise Missile Attack
Message: Your nation has been attacked with a cruise missile by Porky Pig. You lost 0 defending tanks, 2.10 technology, and 10.50 infrastructure. Any existing peace offers that were on the table have been automatically canceled.
[/quote]

Not one NSO nation attacked me, not one NSO .gov member talked with me or \m/ .gov
It was like it didn't happen.

So once again, what was NSO motivation to spit on Hoo?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Learz' timestamp='1281545329' post='2411206']
And here we go around the circle again. Sheesh. You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to read stuff, but noooo....
See my posts [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=840&p=2410571&#entry2410571"]here[/url], [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=900&p=2411069&#entry2411069"]here[/url], and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&st=900&p=2411131&#entry2411131"]here[/url].

The Popcorn War was about some jerks beating up some innocent people minding their own business. Then a bunch of people stepped in to help the victim out.
Here, we have some jerks beating up one innocent person minding his own business. Then a bunch of people stepped in to help the victim out.
[/quote]

Your first point is illogical, I'm not going to lie. I [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90425&view=findpost&p=2410649"]point you here.[/url]
Your second point is even [b]more[/b] illogical.

[quote]
But this, though... "TENE could have declared on him for any reason they wanted".
Really?
TENE was slamming this guy around simply because they could, and when someone tries to stop it, you tell them to mind their own business. Why don't you tell TENE to mind their own business? That would have solved this whole thing nicely.
Honestly, even the GGA had better control over their protectorates. This is starting to move beyond the "sad" point and into "embarrassing".
RoK: the new GGA. [/quote]

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this isn't using [OOC: OOC justifications and planting a faux IC reasoning] to create war. If you don't even understand that circumstances behind [i]their[/i] actions, do us all a favor and keep your blatant disregard for historical events (and I will even add ignorance) to yourself.

I'll keep that in mind; so next time a rogue hits Invicta (using your awful logic in this post), and I try to stop Invicta from slamming this rogue, you will welcome me with open arms and not tell me to mind my own business. That sounds about right, right? No, your logic is abhorrent and I actually feel bad for Invicta for having such an awful member as yourself. I actually have a general respect for Invicta despite our misgivings with Haflinger and other members, but you just take the cake for substantially lowering the bar.

Your third point is just moot, because that isn't even controversial anymore; it's been cleared up. Something about him posing as FARK or something, I don't know. Way to be behind by several days. Want to know what the hot topic of the day is? See Haflinger's post and talk about how, apparently, Ragnarok attacked before the aid was sent.

It's like someone with a silly pole smacked you in the face or something.

So to quote your post:

[quote]And here we go around the circle again. Sheesh. You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to read stuff, but noooo....[/quote]

Get off your high horse when you have no idea what you are talking about, Christ. It's like listening to a petulant child: "I said this a bajillion times mommy! Can I have cake now!?"

Edited August 11, 2010 by SpacingOutMan

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281545126' post='2411200']
Free game, is free game. If you are free to attack them i am free to help them. It works both ways. I have no idea what NSO's business is, i'm interested in your hypocrisy.
[/quote]

The line of thinking on my side that's starting to spread is it's ok to aid people at war with an established alliance, and I hope it gains traction. I'm just itching to start aiding rogues or unaligneds at war with alliances I don't favor, because it's apparently no big deal.

Your side needs to re-examine the thinking behind what you are arguing, because one day it might bite someone in the $@!. Again.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281546086' post='2411219']
The line of thinking on my side that's starting to spread is it's ok to aid people at war with an established alliance, and I hope it gains traction. I'm just itching to start aiding rogues or unaligneds at war with alliances I don't favor, because it's apparently no big deal.

Your side needs to re-examine the thinking behind what you are arguing, because one day it might bite someone in the $@!. Again.
[/quote]

It's all due precedence; I have several quotes and screenshots of people telling CSN, when it promptly can canceled on GATO during the 1V-GATO War, that if we do not enter the war for GATO, it means we are terrible allies, despite GATO telling us not to enter, etc.

If people want to set the bar for a fun time in the future, fine, let them. The more the merrier.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281546086' post='2411219']
The line of thinking on my side that's starting to spread is it's ok to aid people at war with an established alliance, and I hope it gains traction. I'm just itching to start aiding rogues or unaligneds at war with alliances I don't favor, because it's apparently no big deal.

Your side needs to re-examine the thinking behind what you are arguing, because one day it might bite someone in the $@!. Again.
[/quote]

You know what else isn't ok? Having 3 members declare war on a member of another alliance without even talking to said other alliance about the situation. Regardless of what NSO did, I'd consider that a more valid act of war then any aid that NSO sent Sedrick.