Decree of the Sith

[PotFace]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426836' post='2409330']
..... the way it started or who's at fault should not be of question.
[/quote]

Are you serious? When a war breaks out, that's usually the most important thing to look at when you're establishing its legitimacy.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426585' post='2409325']
Meh, I just felt I'd give you the laugh.

IIRC, he was ghosting our AA at the time of those spy attacks, and that is the only evidence I have seen.

So...
[/quote]

Actually someone from MHA confirmed he was an applicant and not a ghost.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426836' post='2409330']
I can't say what their interaction was but it was a measuring contest of some sort.

Guess who won?

While that may be what's really behind it, the way it started or who's at fault should not be of question.
[/quote]We assumed this was so absurd that there was no way we'd be attacked the next day over something so asinine.

Hoo proved us wrong, quite thoroughly.

Its not so simple as you were told.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[caligula]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1281427133' post='2409336']
Actually someone from MHA confirmed he was an applicant and not a ghost.
[/quote]
Yes, he was also promptly denied and thereafter was ghosting our AA.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281427185' post='2409339']
Yes, he was also promptly denied and thereafter was ghosting our AA.
[/quote]
Maybe he simply forgot to switch back to none before being spied on?

After the first declaration, he certainly made sure to switch to None before being accepted into the NSO.

[caligula]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281427126' post='2409335']
Are you serious? When a war breaks out, that's usually the most important thing to look at when you're establishing its legitimacy.
[/quote]
I said it shouldn't be a question, as in :

There is no question that when NSO accepted a rogue by RoK after the leader of RoK stated aiding said rogue would be considered an act of war and then high ranking NSO government member X authorized the aiding of said nation that there was an act of war committed by NSO.

Saying "we didn't think it was an act of war," when one party has explicitly said it would be is a total disregard to the politics that HoT is pretending to portray as abused by RoK.

I am all for calling this an e-measuring contest, but this is still a valid CB.

It's clear as day from the logs in #nso That the guy is absolutely nuts.

Edited August 10, 2010 by caligula

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281426912' post='2409332']
If I contact you and you say it is an alliance sanction action (like Rok did) then yes, I'd consider it a state of war.
[/quote]Well, yes, because I am the leader of 64Digits and my word is law. But that is a straw man, because this does not translate to Heft's position in the NSO. In fact, Heft was explicitly barred from sanctioning it by official Sith policy. He could not have sanctioned the aid because the established policy of the Sith forbade it in this instance.

Now, I'd hardly blame RoK if it weren't for the fact that a multitude of people, on equal and superior level to Heft, tried to resolve the issue, one Rebel Virginia stepping up to the plate almost instantly, and superiors to make attempts as they became available.

Edited August 10, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281427354' post='2409342']
I said it shouldn't be a question, as in :

There is no question that when NSO accepted a rogue by RoK after the leader of RoK stated aiding said rogue would be considered an act of war and then NSO government member X authorization the aiding of said nation.

It's clear as day from the logs in #nso That the guy is absolutely nuts.
[/quote]
We were shown evidence that he was not a rogue, but simply an unaligned retaliating against aggressive failed spy attacks.

Therefore not a rogue, and the situation would warrant some further negotiation. Had we been shown conclusive proof that he was a rogue, the aid would never have been sent. Thats our standard operating procedure in those cases.

RoK was unreasonable, and we were unreasonable right back. Isnt that how diplomacy works in back channels? Our membership isnt known for their flowers and kisses.

Once again, we were trying to negotiate a proper settlement, via RV after the aid was sent. But RoK would have none of it, and promptly ignored him and all further attempts at negotiation.

[quote]
Saying "we didn't think it was an act of war," when one party has explicitly said it would be is a total disregard to the politics that HoT is pretending to portray as abused by RoK. [/quote] No it isn't. Not even in the [i]slightest[/i].

[quote]I am all for calling this an e-measuring contest, but this is still a valid CB.
[/quote] It's a blatant provocation used as a shaky CB. It may be "valid", but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281426120' post='2409313']
Hoo didnt care whether or not he had to prove it, he had declared our member a rogue, and then made it clear that he had no intention of negotiating that view of events.
[/quote]

Dont you understand benefits of hegemony?, an ultimatum is THE evidence.

Edited August 10, 2010 by shahenshah

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281427586' post='2409345']
We were shown evidence that he was not a rogue, but simply an unaligned retaliating against aggressive failed spy attacks.

Therefore not a rogue, and the situation would warrant some further negotiation. Had we been shown conclusive proof that he was a rogue, the aid would never have been sent. Thats our standard operating procedure in those cases.

RoK was unreasonable, and we were unreasonable right back. Isnt that how diplomacy works in back channels? Our membership isnt known for their flowers and kisses.

[/quote]

Exactly.

I think we all know full well there isn't much love lost between the two alliances.

As for if he's a rogue or not, he was at war regardless in some sort of capacity with TENE. That alone is cause enough to at least delay membership to someone in most alliances as a precaution against the same thing that is happening right now. I'm sure more will develop in due time but I'm more inclined to believe sedrick in his own words.

To disregard RoK's warning (or threat, depending on what side of the treaty web you're on.) that aiding the said nation would be considered an act of war invited action, heck, it begged for it. I think Hoo himself might have even been perplexed as to how easy you made this cb for him.

[PotFace]

All of this gives me a headache. By all means, continue discussing the CB


But do consider one thing as you're doing so - the political FX that this war will bring. On one side, we have a DoW over a tiny little skirmish, when, although it was technically warranted, shows an extreme lack of rational diplomacy and mirrors the diplomatic practices of the pre-Karma NPO (I think that's been mentioned here before somewhere), and on the other hand, an alliance that has instructed its allies to not get involved because it would rather be rolled than to allow this skirmish to develop into a world war.

NSO might be losing lots of points on the battlefield, and it might have a few communications issues that should be examined (as I'm sure we all do to a lesser or greater extent), but in terms of politics, and general "coolness" about all of this, well, NSO will emerge as the victor. And folks, in the grand scheme of things, it's [i]those[/i] effects that are long-term. You can always buy back infra.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281427586' post='2409345']
We were shown evidence that he was not a rogue, but simply an unaligned retaliating against aggressive failed spy attacks.

Therefore not a rogue, and the situation would warrant some further negotiation. Had we been shown conclusive proof that he was a rogue, the aid would never have been sent. Thats our standard operating procedure in those cases.

RoK was unreasonable, and we were unreasonable right back. Isnt that how diplomacy works in back channels? Our membership isnt known for their flowers and kisses.

Once again, we were trying to negotiate a proper settlement, via RV after the aid was sent. But RoK would have none of it, and promptly ignored him and all further attempts at negotiation.

No it isn't. Not even in the [i]slightest[/i].

It's a blatant provocation used as a shaky CB. It may be "valid", but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
[/quote]

You decided Hoo was bluffing. He wasn't. How unfair etc poor me.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281427918' post='2409349']


To disregard RoK's warning (or threat, depending on what side of the treaty web you're on.) that aiding the said nation would be considered an act of war invited action, heck, it begged for it. I think Hoo himself might have even been perplexed as to how easy you made this cb for him.
[/quote]
Didnt you just say you were against slandering Heft?

[quote]Exactly.

I think we all know full well there isn't much love lost between the two alliances.[/quote]What does that have to do with anything? We've never gone out of our way to tick off RoK, and Im pretty sure theyve never done as such to us.

[quote]As for if he's a rogue or not, he was at war regardless in some sort of capacity with TENE. That alone is cause enough to at least delay membership to someone in most alliances as a precaution against the same thing that is happening right now. I'm sure more will develop in due time but I'm more inclined to believe sedrick in his own words.[/quote] We accepted him. Thats one of our unique policies, accepting folks at war, and then depending on the circumstances, either negotiating a settlement or letting them take their lumps. Hoo knows this.

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1281428102' post='2409351']
You decided Hoo was bluffing. He wasn't. How unfair etc poor me.
[/quote]
Who's crying? If pointing out that the excuse used for this war is something that could have been handled better by both sides is whining, then you, frankly, are a massive crybaby. You know, with all that heckling about injustice youve been doing for months.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281428171' post='2409353']
Who's crying? If pointing out that the excuse used for this war is something that could have been handled better by both sides is whining, then you, frankly, are a massive crybaby. You know, with all that heckling about injustice youve been doing for months.
[/quote]

I think you may have me confused with someone else
The only injustice around here is the lack of that nice thermonuclear glow that warms the cockles of my cold, dead heart

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281427918' post='2409349']
I think Hoo himself might have even been perplexed as to how easy you made this cb for him.
[/quote]

As was all of SF, I almost fell off my chair.

[Vol Navy]

Didn't Hoo say a few weeks ago that he'd roll anyone who doubted his word and asked him for proof beyond that he'd said it was true?

I honestly wonder if that's part of the reason this went down hill so quickly.


:edit for clarity:

Edited August 10, 2010 by Vol Navy

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1281429489' post='2409364']
Didn't Hoo say a few weeks ago that he'd roll anyone who doubted his word and asked him for proof beyond that he'd said something?

I honestly wonder if that's part of the reason this went down hill so quickly.
[/quote]

I don't think that's a new policy of Hoo's.

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281428171' post='2409353']
Didnt you just say you were against slandering Heft?

What does that have to do with anything? We've never gone out of our way to tick off RoK, and Im pretty sure theyve never done as such to us.

We accepted him. Thats one of our unique policies, accepting folks at war, and then depending on the circumstances, either negotiating a settlement or letting them take their lumps. Hoo knows this.


[/quote]

Where in my post did I mention Heft?
I am apalled at certain individuals attempts to say Heft did not the authority to aid the said nation, or that Heft is some incompetent blowhard, but more ticked that a few NSO members are pointing fingers at him for making a mistake.
That is why I have referred to what happened as the actions of the NSO, as, like it or not, they were the actions of the NSO.
Heft's a great guy and if he is forced from government after this it would be un-sithlike.
I just wish people would stop making it personal.


As for your second part, well, there's two sides to that coin.

Sometimes you get members like this:
(Hostmasks, obscentities bleeped.)
Session Start: Sun Aug 08 02:13:03 2010
Session Ident: #nso
03[02:13] * Now talking in #nso
03[02:13] * Topic is '|| http://www.newsithorder.info/phpBB3/ || http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/892/lolafmain.png || #temptrade for temp trades'
03[02:13] * Set by Heft on Fri Aug 06 18:08:31
Snip
[04:19] <sedrick> omg iam
[04:20] <sedrick> im in 3 def wars
[04:20] <sedrick> i thought 2
02[04:20] * +Fernando12 (*******) Quit (Quit: Fernando12)
[04:20] <@Jerek> yeah, I thought I was hallucinating for a moment
[04:20] <Caliph> no, they staggered you after update
[04:20] <Caliph> i had checked your wars earlier
[04:20] <@Jerek> great job Caliph, you scared him off
[04:20] <sedrick> well i have to hit this guy
[04:20] <Caliph> lol
[04:20] <Emperor_Whimsical> Caliph is intimidating
[04:20] <sedrick> lol he has 12k troops
[04:20] <Emperor_Whimsical> glad he's on mah side
[04:20] <sedrick> so 6k troops vs like 30k troops
[04:21] <sedrick> lol reminds me of 300
[04:21] <sedrick> hopei get peace
[04:22] <sedrick> lol i realt hate this guys
[04:22] <sedrick> **** hatem
[04:22] <sedrick> damn
[04:23] <sedrick> lil ********
03[04:23] * Kublakhan (*******) has joined #nso
[04:23] <TheDon125[FEAR]> Unfortunately, such is the result of starting offensive wars, be they provoked or not
[04:23] <sedrick> they forced me to do it
[04:24] <TheDon125[FEAR]> Well, no they didn't, unless they hacked your account and declared on themselves.
[04:24] <sedrick> exactly
[04:24] <sedrick> ths wat happened lol
[04:25] <sedrick> what would u do if no one would let u join there alliance in your old alliance threaten
[04:25] <TheDon125[FEAR]> If that's the case, you should have gone to Admin and had them perma-banned from the game. Hacking is not tolerated. Period.
[04:25] <Caliph> ^
[04:25] <Caliph> right
[04:25] <sedrick> no they did not hack me i waz jkin
06[04:25] * Emperor_Whimsical hacks caliph
[04:25] <Caliph> :0
[04:25] <Emperor_Whimsical> like in bioshock
[04:25] <Caliph> hacking and wacking?
[04:25] <Caliph> like in Fallout 3?
[04:25] <sedrick> i had no alies
[04:26] <Emperor_Whimsical> lol
[04:26] <Emperor_Whimsical> I never had hacking in fallout 3
[04:26] <sedrick> in i was recieving threats
[04:26] <Caliph> *****
[04:26] <Emperor_Whimsical> I had small arms and melee dawg
[04:26] <Emperor_Whimsical> I prefer oblivion, tbh
[04:27] <sedrick> i really had no choice sir
[04:28] <sedrick> heres is a example
[04:28] <TheDon125[FEAR]> all you had to do was join an alliance and not declare war. If your history was clean, most alliances would have accepted you. War is not always the answer.
[04:28] <sedrick> dude
[04:28] <sedrick> i tried to joinmha
[04:28] <TheDon125[FEAR]> (its the fun answer, but not always the ideal one )
[04:28] <sedrick> they have this thing saying former alliances
[04:29] <sedrick> in they askedtene about me
[04:29] <sedrick> then they denied my applicatioin
[04:29] <sedrick> then i went to join npo
[04:29] <sedrick> but i didnt want to be in npo
[04:29] <sedrick> so i w8
[04:30] <sedrick> i startt getting major threats in spy attacks
[04:30] <sedrick> one threat said we are preparing todestroy
[04:30] <sedrick> u
[04:30] <sedrick> in we will have fun ziing u
[04:30] <Xiphosis[GOD]> so you pre-empted them? XD
[04:31] <sedrick> no
[04:31] <sedrick> i waz bullied
[04:31] <sedrick> my alliance partner waz spying me
06[04:31] * Xiphosis[GOD] facepalms
[04:32] <Xiphosis[GOD]> Forget I asked!
[04:32] <TheDon125[FEAR]> lol
[04:32] <sedrick> the guy who messaged me said the name of the ppl who0 were gonna hit me
[04:32] <sedrick> so i waz thinkin
[04:32] <sedrick> in i was like if they hit me im done
[04:33] <sedrick> i had no allies
[04:33] <sedrick> then they kept spying
[04:33] <sedrick> i said stop
[b][04:33] <Xiphosis[GOD]> So you hit them from... the MHA AA... anyway.
[04:33] <sedrick> more threats
[04:33] <sedrick> no
[04:33] <Xiphosis[GOD]> Even though MHA refused you.
[04:33] <sedrick> no
[04:33] <sedrick> i hit them b4 mha
[04:33] <Xiphosis[GOD]> Really?
06[04:33] * Xiphosis[GOD] looks at your war screen
[04:33] <Xiphosis[GOD]> oh look at that it saves your AA.
[04:33] <Xiphosis[GOD]> and you totally did.
[04:34] <sedrick> tht y mha asked themabout me
[04:34] <sedrick> no i didnt really
[04:34] <sedrick> i hit them then join mha for protection
03[04:34] * Mussolandia (*****) has joined #nso
[04:34] <sedrick> but they wouldnt accept me becuz of wars[/b]

Apparently there was some little drama between him and his old alliance, he didn't like the reception he got on his way out and it appears they probably messed with him, maybe even to the point of bullying given his...demeanor. However, he then attacked their nations.

But that's just all I can gather.

While taking in nations who need help is admirable, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it, and I wouldn't expect other alliances to exactly be open to accepting nations they were at war with after they rogued them.

Edited August 10, 2010 by caligula

[TehChron]

[quote]Apparently there was some little drama between him and his old alliance, he didn't like the reception he got on his way out and it appears they probably messed with him, maybe even to the point of bullying given his...demeanor. However, he then attacked their nations.

But that's just all I can gather. [/quote]Ok, so based on the logs I can see where you are getting this from. Makes sense, and falls in line with what we were presented with (i.e. retaliation against aggressors).

My question lies with this:

[quote]As for your second part, well, there's two sides to that coin.

Sometimes you get members like this:[/quote]So what? Id say its worth the risks in quality to afford those individuals a chance to have a community before being wiped off the face of the planet for whatever their circumstances are.

[quote]Where in my post did I mention Heft?
I am apalled at certain individuals attempts to say Heft did not the authority to aid the said nation, or that Heft is some incompetent blowhard, but more ticked that a few NSO members are pointing fingers at him for making a mistake.
That is why I have referred to what happened as the actions of the NSO, as, like it or not, they were the actions of the NSO.
Heft's a great guy and if he is forced from government after this it would be un-sithlike.
I just wish people would stop making it personal.[/quote]You're referring to what Heft did as being of questionable judgment.

Prancing around that while being vague is very unbecoming of you, who professes to be a defender of Heft's honor. So let me get this straight:

You yourself view what Heft did as a mistake, or whatever it is you're accusing the NSO of doing in general. And now you're saying that Heft did not make a mistake?

Aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouth here? Either Heft made a mistake, or NSO did not. You're not seriously trying something so disingenuous, are you?
[quote]
While taking in nations who need help is admirable, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it, and I wouldn't expect other alliances to exactly be open to accepting nations they were at war with after they rogued them. [/quote]How was this "the wrong way"?

We requested proof contradicting the screenshots we were given, and were rebuked. Therefore, its simply logical to conclude that Hoo could not show us said evidence because it didn't exist.

If it didnt exist, we had no reason to not afford him the protections guaranteed by his membership.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281430169' post='2409379']
Ok, so based on the logs I can see where you are getting this from. Makes sense, and falls in line with what we were presented with (i.e. retaliation against aggressors.

My question lies with this:

So what? Id say its worth the risks in quality to afford those individuals a chance to have a community before being wiped off the face of the planet for whatever their circumstances are.[/quote]

Then don't complain when the inevitable happens and you accept someone who is at war with an alliance that does not wish to give it peace, or for you to aid it...I guess is my point.
[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281430169' post='2409379']

You're referring to what Heft did as being of questionable judgment.

Prancing around that while being vague is very unbecoming of you, who professes to be a defender of Heft's honor. So let me get this straight:

You yourself view what Heft did as a mistake, or whatever it is you're accusing the NSO of doing in general. And now you're saying that Heft did not make a mistake?

Aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouth here? Either Heft made a mistake, or NSO did not. You're not seriously trying something so disingenuous, are you?
How was this "the wrong way"?

We requested proof contradicting the screenshots we were given, and were rebuked. Therefore, its simply logical to conclude that Hoo could not show us said evidence because it didn't exist.

If it didnt exist, we had no reason to not afford him the protections guaranteed by his membership.
[/quote]
...Apparently you're not making the same connection that I am that the nations were aided by order of a High Official of the NSO with prior notice that such an act would be considered an act of war.
I'm not judging Heft, I'm judging the action, quite the opposite of what you're trying to say I'm doing.
Hoo gave all he needed to with his word and then with the CB. The proof is there. He gave you an option to believe that he was right and that a nation already at war was indeed a rogue. Hoo even stated that aiding him would be considered an act of war.
The nation was then aided. I don't understand how RoK can be blamed for the CB at hand.

The argument that you did not take him seriously is not an argument against RoK, but the NSO.

Edited August 10, 2010 by caligula

[Fulgrim]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281427962' post='2409350']
But do consider one thing as you're doing so - the political FX that this war will bring. On one side, we have a DoW over a tiny little skirmish, when, although it was technically warranted, shows an extreme lack of rational diplomacy and mirrors the diplomatic practices of the pre-Karma NPO (I think that's been mentioned here before somewhere), and on the other hand, an alliance that has instructed its allies to not get involved because it would rather be rolled than to allow this skirmish to develop into a world war.

NSO might be losing lots of points on the battlefield, and it might have a few communications issues that should be examined (as I'm sure we all do to a lesser or greater extent), but in terms of politics, and general "coolness" about all of this, well, NSO will emerge as the victor. And folks, in the grand scheme of things, it's [i]those[/i] effects that are long-term. You can always buy back infra.
[/quote]

This is the only good thing to come out of this thread. Excellently put.

[potato]

[quote name='Fulgrim' timestamp='1281430734' post='2409389']
This is the only good thing to come out of this thread. Excellently put.
[/quote]

Sadly inaccurate though.

[Antonio Salovega VI]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281425070' post='2409296']As I have stated in other places to other people, you are pinning things on the Sith which the Sith did not do. Heft is responsible for those issues. People superior to Heft immediately sought to negotiate a solution with RoK, seeing the problems Heft had caused. RoK blatantly ignored this. And now in an effort to paint RoK in a positive light, you twist reality, to try and make them look like something other than the aggressive warmongers they are. NSO has held out the branch of peace and diplomacy since the moment Heft made his error. RoK completely ignored this diplomacy.

NSO is not responsible, simply because people superior to Heft have been reaching out to RoK from the start of this to discuss a peaceful and diplomatic solution. But RoK didn't want peace. And it's clear VE didn't either. And of course you're not going to agree with me, you're going to keep spouting the same lines, you must, you can't admit that this is war for the sake of war.

If someone wants to negotiate with 64Digits, I'd expect they would come to me with their issue, not some lower member and then claim that whatever that lower guy said is our official policy - Especially if I'm trying to contact that someone myself to rectify whatever situation it might be.[/quote]

HeroofTime55, your political and diplomatic myopia really is bad. You really need to get it looked after. Heft is not as you put it “some lower member”. He is one of six in the Sith leadership who set policy and make alliance binding decisions. Blame for actions of someone in the top rungs of leadership cannot be casually shifted from the alliance s/he leads. Someone with 2,200+ posts, as you do, should not be so naïve.

Let me explain the facts of CN life. Non-aligned nations get spied upon and raided though in this case the latter did not happen and the former is very questionable. Non-aligned nations who attack aligned nations are considered rogues and receive reprisal attacks. Alliances who accept non-aligned nations under attack, should not aid said non-aligned nations until all diplomatic efforts have been expended and the wars have run their course. This is especially true when the leadership of the alliance has been specifically cautioned through diplomatic channels not to do so. Leaders of said alliances, who send aid after being advised in the strongest of terms not to do so, should know that they have committed their alliance to war. To think otherwise is either the height of naïveté or utter incompetence.

The member nations of the Sith are now paying the price for the failure of their leaders who did not learn from the mistakes of others. You may wish to learn from the mistakes of the Sith instead of trying to justify them.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1281431227' post='2409395']
Sadly inaccurate though.
[/quote]

I think PotFace's post has been one of the more rational tangents going on in this thread, a more elaboration will only lead to a better discourse or maybe I understood your post incorrectly.

Edited August 10, 2010 by shahenshah

[Baldr]

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1281431350' post='2409399']
Non-aligned nations get spied upon and raided though in this case the latter did not happen and the former is very questionable. [/quote]

To me, it's fairly relevant if they had actually spied him prior to his attacking.

Spying is generally considered an act of war - much like aiding a nation who is at war is considered an act of war.

If he was spied and attacked the people who attempted to spy him, then the initial "act of war" didn't come from him, or from NSO.

Not that it matters at this point. Now, everything is in motion and facts won't change that. The 5 alliances that jumped NSO are going to roll them as best they can, regardles of how it all started.