IRON Notice

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

I will not drag this into a side debate.

However, Lusitan, you used the words "perfectly controlled scenario" to describe a losing war. By your own admittance, you were losing. You were "fine for a second round, after that, probably not". I'm sorry but that's losing a war. In short, Umbrella was rocking your boat.

My point remains regarding NATO's involvement.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='19 July 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1279567883' post='2379180']
Wow, that you thought that attacking without any valid CB at all, basing your 'strategy' simply on the word of a man[/quote]
Just to clarify: you did the same. Not only when you decided to follow us. But during the first phase of the BiPolar war, you actually entered on Polaris side. Polaris had "no valid CB". In fact, we used the same CB they had used and that you, TFD and NATO, used not once but twice (to DoW on Umbrella and later on FoB).

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='19 July 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1279567883' post='2379180']By that same token, those that lead their friends into a mess should feel a degree of obligation towards those that supported them.[/quote]
We have honored our obligations towards our friends and will continue to do so.

I am pretty sure that what IRON was stating, in this thread and privately, is that they wanted to remain friends and would likely extend a helping hand should you need it. I am quite sure that they will keep on extending that hand for the time being.

[SiCkO]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='19 July 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1279567675' post='2379175']
I am not sure you're seeing the point on actually using the oA to declare on alliances whose allies will be diverged to us rather than declaring on those same allies and get them and their allies added to the pile. In a world where oA are not taken in account it's a perfect strategy.[/quote]

So attacking another alliance under an oA clause is defending them? Besides the fact that this is complete nonsense it still doesn't explain the point Yev was getting at. NATO still had every right to not go in (since I believe NATO's treaty with them was non - chaining). NATO voluntarily chose to fight and you got off rather light in reps.


Also, we were not losing, our upper tier was not being destroyed, in fact it was fine to fight the second round. If the war had dragged would it have been like that? Probably not. But at the time we were very much fine.

With warchests today being upwards of hundreds of millions, you could get absolutely mauled in for a momth and still be able to fight. Your upper tier may have been "ready to go" for a second round, but in all honesty, Umbrella wiped the floor with your top nations.

[quote]For the same reason half of first round coalition jumped to the other side. You failed to inform us. You went in with a strategy that 60% of the people on your coalition could have told you was doomed to failure. That's the hard fact.[/quote]

I'm curious where you came up with this number. I'll have to assume that it was made up. If we had known that half of the first coalition would have bailed, you would not have seen our DoW on CnG.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, eh?


[quote]One thing you're right, no one forced our hand on anything. NATO, and us by proxy, were making a voluntary sacrifice to help out IRON. Because that's what friends do, even when the odds you're fighting against are huge.[/quote]

I love how everyone says friends but the second they get into private discussions, it's solely focused on saving themselves. A good example would be Legion during Bi - Polar when they flipped on peacing or staying, some regular members wanted to help out IRON, however, most of the government didn't want to get rolled.

[quote]I wouldn't expect eternal loyalty or gratitute from IRON. Any loyalty and gratitude from IRON would be fine.
[/quote]

If everyone did what you wanted, we would be doomed to repeated wars with the same sides and results.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Harry Dresden
fixed rogue tag.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='19 July 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1279568635' post='2379200']
Just to clarify: you did the same. Not only when you decided to follow us. But during the first phase of the BiPolar war, you actually entered on Polaris side. Polaris had "no valid CB". In fact, we used the same CB they had used and that you, TFD and NATO, used not once but twice (to DoW on Umbrella and later on FoB).
[/quote]

That's completelly wrong. Umbrella declared war on Nueva Vida. TFD holds a MDoAP with Nueva Vida. TFD declared in defence of Nueva Vida by chaining. NATO and NADC joined us via our MDoAPs to each respectivelly.

[quote name='SiCkO' date='19 July 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1279568920' post='2379205']
If everyone did what you wanted, we would be doomed to repeated wars with the same sides and results.
[/quote]

Oh you misunderstand me sir. I am a great fan of the kind of action IRON has taken. I don't think IRON, specifically, had that right though considering last war.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Lusitan

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='19 July 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1279568635' post='2379200']
Just to clarify: you did the same. Not only when you decided to follow us. But during the first phase of the BiPolar war, you actually entered on Polaris side. Polaris had "no valid CB". In fact, we used the same CB they had used and that you, TFD and NATO, used not once but twice (to DoW on Umbrella and later on FoB).
[/quote]

I wasn't in TFD then but I understand your point. And while I won't debate the quality of NpO's CB, at least they had a pre-text (being insulted, fighting against asshattery raiding and such). While TOP and IRON just wanted to "bloody" CnG. TFD entered because of the Aztec/FOK angle. The point, most of those pulled in had obligations, while TOP and IRON had no obligation to attack, thus greatly extending the time many had to be at war to satisfy their treaties.

The larger point is that it was military adventure that failed spectacularly and cost your allies a considerable amount of material and morale. To see some of them canceled on now seems... distasteful.


[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='19 July 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1279568635' post='2379200']
We have honored our obligations towards our friends and will continue to do so.
[/quote]
Good for you, I hope you continue to do so.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='19 July 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1279568635' post='2379200']
I am pretty sure that what IRON was stating, in this thread and privately, is that they wanted to remain friends and would likely extend a helping hand should you need it. I am quite sure that they will keep on extending that hand for the time being.
[/quote]

That's nice. We (the peanut gallery) won't really understand the implications of this move until we see the next. So make sure your ally picks it well.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='19 July 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1279560022' post='2378999']
One thing you can never accuse IRON of is not standing by its treaty obligations.
[/quote]
Now that's revisionism.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

I know, FinsterBaby is gone, and the current IRON government does actually seem to respect its treaties somewhat better. But IRON can hardly claim to be faultless in this regard.

[Aeternos Astramora]

These are all fake cancellations. Secret treaties still exist, to be used at the first sign of fracture between SF and CnG. The indignation by several members of the cancelled parties and the conflicting reports over whether they are to remain friends or not are all part of the strategy to confuse SF and CnG.

You heard it here first.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='19 July 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1279570257' post='2379235']
Now that's revisionism.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

I know, FinsterBaby is gone, and the current IRON government does actually seem to respect its treaties somewhat better. But IRON can hardly claim to be faultless in this regard.
[/quote]
I don't know how you can accuse them of not honoring their treaties when they, in fact, did honor that treaty. They cancelled it, but since they hadn't done so early enough due to expiration times, they still fought.

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='19 July 2010 - 02:07 PM' timestamp='1279566432' post='2379143']
There was TFD, NATO, NADC and Nueva Vida at the same time fighting Umbrella upper tier, before the mass Grämlins exodus there. It took for 4 alliances, but I believe the score was that most Umbrella nations had at least two DoWs. I know my target had.
[/quote]

Mass Grämlins exodus? I think we have two or three former members from the alliance and one joined long before the war broke out; I would hardly describe it as a mass exodus, especially considering they came well after Umbrella was peaced out of all of its wars.

[janax]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='19 July 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1279570372' post='2379243']
I don't know how you can accuse them of not honoring their treaties when they, in fact, did honor that treaty. They cancelled it, but since they hadn't done so early enough due to expiration times, they still fought.
[/quote]


Because facts should never get in the way of a talking point, Water Weasel

[Lukapaka]

Well, can't say I saw this coming!

Congrats, IRON for finding yourself facing a new direction.

[AvengingAngel256]

Woah that's alot of Cancellations.
Good Luck with your new Direction IRON, Hope it works out for you

p.s. TAB merged into MHA

[shilo]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='19 July 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1279570257' post='2379235']
Now that's revisionism.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

I know, FinsterBaby is gone, and the current IRON government does actually seem to respect its treaties somewhat better. But IRON can hardly claim to be faultless in this regard.
[/quote]
You do remember that they actually honored the treaties? It's called Karma war if my memory serves me right.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='19 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1279570257' post='2379235']
Now that's revisionism.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

I know, FinsterBaby is gone, and the current IRON government does actually seem to respect its treaties somewhat better. But IRON can hardly claim to be faultless in this regard.
[/quote]

Come on now Haflinger, you know as well as I do that all the members of 1V defended NPO in the Karma war based on our MDoAP treaty. The mass cancelation of the MDAP’s was to show that we as a group did not approve of what was being done by NPO, but as allies we all defended them as any good ally would do. I expect better of you than to try and use something like this to take a pot shot at IRON’s honor. Apparently I was wrong to hold you in such high regard.

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='the masheen' date='19 July 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1279567537' post='2379171']
I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss IRON canceling their treaties, not about Umbrella and TFD

Anyways, good luck with this IRON. Is this your attempt to go paperless like your buddies in GRE?
[/quote]

No, we still have several treaties still remaining.

[Lenny N Karl]

All that NATO needs to say about this has been said. [b]I am requesting that NATO nations refrain from posting in this thread anymore.[/b]

Our friends and allies will represent us well enough and the sooner we stop acknowledging the worthless and unwanted opinions of those uninvolved in this matter the sooner they go finger-pointing and whining in another topic.

all other communication with IRON can be done through the forums of each alliance.

Again, thank you for all the years as an ally IRON. fair thee well.


o/

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='19 July 2010 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1279570372' post='2379243']
I don't know how you can accuse them of not honoring their treaties when they, in fact, did honor that treaty. They cancelled it, but since they hadn't done so early enough due to expiration times, they still fought.
[/quote]
Yes, they fought.

No, they didn't honour the treaty in its entirety. Or specifically, FinsterBaby took actions in direct contradiction of it.

But like I said, he's not IRON gov anymore. Still, he was the leader then.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Muddog' date='19 July 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1279566183' post='2379134']
Interesting, does this mean IRON will not have to comply with their surrender terms at all?
[/quote]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='19 July 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1279566216' post='2379136']
What the hell?
[/quote]

I wouldn't mind seeing the logic behind that statement myself.

[King Tom]

Good luck IRON
I was fun when it lasted, and maybe in the future we will do it again. Only time will tell..


I posted Lenny what you going to do.

Edited July 19, 2010 by King Tom

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Muddog' date='19 July 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1279566183' post='2379134']
Interesting, does this mean IRON will not have to comply with their surrender terms at all?
[/quote]

Which ones? Because as far as I can tell, neither set currently has anything to do with this announcement.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='19 July 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1279578792' post='2379411']
Which ones? Because as far as I can tell, neither set currently has anything to do with this announcement.
[/quote]

Did I miss a surrender to Gremlins? What do you mean, "neither set"?

[Botha]

As ex-IRON, all I can say is this should have been done a long time ago - like after Karma War. Anyways best of luck in your new direction.

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='19 July 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1279579013' post='2379413']
Did I miss a surrender to Gremlins? What do you mean, "neither set"?
[/quote]

No, however there are no current requirements proposed nor imposed on IRON that would have anything to do with this announcement.

[Timberland]

The nation of Timberland carries many cheeses to go with your wines

Edited July 19, 2010 by Timberland

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Timberland' date='19 July 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1279581185' post='2379464']
The nation of Timberland carries many cheeses to go with your wines
[/quote]

lol I c wha u did thar.

[andrew734]

yay cheese

and sorry to all our former treaty partners, hopefully you understand.