GOONS Announcement

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='24 May 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1274715979' post='2310282']
if you're working under the assumption that we're saying to ourselves "let's be rude to as many people as we can, that will make them love us" then you're mistaken. However, your argument wasn't that being rude and disrespectful is a generally bad thing. Your argument was "I would say being disrespectful and rude probably did have a role to play in getting you guys rolled last time around, Karma is a !@#$%*". which is, if you'll excuse me for saying it, pure nonsense. GOONS would have been just as rolled if they had consulted Emily Post before every announcement on the forums. THey were rolled because the people in charge wanted them to be rolled. Want to know how I know this? Because the people in charge rolled [i]everyone who looked like a threat[/i]. You can hardly say GOONS were rolled because they were rude when the people who rolled GOONS also rolled GPA. You were in IRON when that particular party took place, were the hippies disrespectful or something?

The most you can really say is that GOONS 1.0 being rude made you and your alliance like them less. If you're going to say that, please allow me a few seconds to put on sunglasses so I'm not dazzled by this blinding flash of the obvious.
[/quote]

So what your saying is GOONS blatant disrespect toward countless alliances all over bob played absolutely no role in shaping the sides in the UJW. We both know that many alliances had split treaty commitments. Of course how you treat other alliances around you has a bearing in any global conflict. As AirMe stated all the previous incarnation of GOONS cared about was there own self interest, this was widely ecident by GOONS complete and utter failure to show anything but hostility and contempt to anyone who didn't fit snugly into there circle of friends.

The people in charge? At the outbreak of the UJW the sides were relatively even, even by your own argument you have to acknowledge this (the block was large enough to present a threat to the power group at the time). What GOONS posted on the forums is just the tip of the ice berg, events like shark week remained firmly in the memories of those lining up against the UJP. The problem was not just that GOONS were hostile and disrespectful on the forums, there policy was also hostile and dismissive of other alliances.

You cannot compare GOONS to GPA, GPA was a single alliance with no ties, GOONS 1.0 was the number 1 alliance in the game surrounded by a vast network of alliances and a vast amount of resources at there disposal. Had GOONS 1.0 presented a desirable alternative to the power block at the time it is quite possible the UJW would have had a similar result to Karma.

The OOC attacks only confirmed what the vast majority already knew, a GOONS run Hegemony would be one that no alliance could be safe in, a Pacifican run hegemony was more desirable.

As for your last comment what part of "being disrespectful to other alliances makes you needless enemies" have you failed to grasp throughout my posts. Treating alliances like crap and walking all over them will result in them fighting against you when the opportunity arises, it did in the UJW and it did in KARMA. As I have said consistently GOONS 1.0 made to many enemies because of the way they treated other alliances, coupled with other factors this resulted in them being rolled. If you cannot see this then don't be reaching for them sun glasses to hastily.

I'm done with this so I'll leave you alone to celebrate your flag, which I could not possibly criticise as IRON's flag is truly horrible.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='24 May 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1274715833' post='2310280']
I didn't say you were consistently disrespectful what I said was this:

"In all facets of life you reap what you sew, conducting yourself in a consistently disrespectful manner makes you absolutely no friends."

This is a generalisation about life not about GOONS. I agree that on occasion it is neccesary to upset some folks to uphold your best interest.

What I do not agree with is being disrespectful where it is not neccesary. To characterise your alliance as being disrespectful and rude in general as Lamuella did in [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=86384&view=findpost&p=2310153]this[/url] post implies that you are unnecessarily rude and disrespectful. It is this I see little benefit in.
[/quote]

That's... fine? I think that GOONS is okay with you not agreeing with how we conduct ourselves.

However that is a [b]far[/b] cry from attempting to liken us to Neutral Shoving via our methods, demeanor, or a mixture of both. You've done nothing so far to compare us other than say that we were both rude and disrespectful, and even the way you went about that comparison was flawed.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='24 May 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1274717837' post='2310298']
That's... fine? I think that GOONS is okay with you not agreeing with how we conduct ourselves.

However that is a [b]far[/b] cry from attempting to liken us to Neutral Shoving via our methods, demeanor, or a mixture of both. You've done nothing so far to compare us other than say that we were both rude and disrespectful, and even the way you went about that comparison was flawed.
[/quote]

I didn't need to compare the two versions, I was working off the comparisson Lamuella made of the two alliances, if you look back my original statement was only an explanation of why you are compared with one another, I did not in any way try to validate this comparison so that would probably explain why the comparison is non-existent rather than flawed.

The rest of the topic just kind of fizzled into a debate as to why GOONS 1.0 got rolled.

[Alonois]

But I LIKED using Iran. It was intricate and made me feel like I was home.

I [i]guess[/i] grenades are fine.

Also blah blah blah whine whine whine GOONS are evil even when other alliances do things they do and we make no comment but they're GOONS and black sphere so they're not real people anyways.

[Archanis]

[quote name='Alonois' date='24 May 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1274718621' post='2310308']
But I LIKED using Iran. It was intricate and made me feel like I was home.

I [i]guess[/i] grenades are fine.

Also blah blah blah whine whine whine GOONS are evil even when other alliances do things they do and we make no comment but they're GOONS and black sphere so they're not real people anyways.
[/quote]...Angola. We were using Angola.

[Alonois]

[quote name='Archanis' date='24 May 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1274718823' post='2310312']
...Angola. We were using Angola.
[/quote]
YOU were using Angola. I was using Iran. Deal with it.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Alonois

[lamuella]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='24 May 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1274717769' post='2310297']
So what your saying is GOONS blatant disrespect toward countless alliances all over bob played absolutely no role in shaping the sides in the UJW.[/quote]

No more than (to pick a name) NPO's blatat disrespect of countless alliances did


[quote] We both know that many alliances had split treaty commitments. Of course how you treat other alliances around you has a bearing in any global conflict. As AirMe stated all the previous incarnation of GOONS cared about was there own self interest, this was widely ecident by GOONS complete and utter failure to show anything but hostility and contempt to anyone who didn't fit snugly into there circle of friends.
[/quote]

look, I get it. You were on the winning side of that one, so you want to paint your side as the good guys no matter what.

[quote]
The people in charge? At the outbreak of the UJW the sides were relatively even, even by your own argument you have to acknowledge this (the block was large enough to present a threat to the power group at the time).
[/quote]

it was never "even". It was close enough to it that it wasn't a 5 second rolling, but there was a clear and apparent larger side, even if you ignore NPO's nudge-nudge-wink-wink sitting out of the conflict.

[quote]
What GOONS posted on the forums is just the tip of the ice berg, events like shark week remained firmly in the memories of those lining up against the UJP. The problem was not just that GOONS were hostile and disrespectful on the forums, there policy was also hostile and dismissive of other alliances.
[/quote]

so in other words there's no comparison between my alliance being (as I put it) a bit rude and disrespectful, and GOONS 1.0's attitude and actions. Thank you for admitting the point I have been making throughout the thread.

[quote]
You cannot compare GOONS to GPA, GPA was a single alliance with no ties, GOONS 1.0 was the number 1 alliance in the game surrounded by a vast network of alliances and a vast amount of resources at there disposal.
[/quote]

again, you make my point for me. GOONS was a huge threat to the existing hegemony and was thus put down. Their rudeness had nothing whatsoever to do with the political reasons why they were targeted.

[quote]
Had GOONS 1.0 presented a desirable alternative to the power block at the time it is quite possible the UJW would have had a similar result to Karma.
[/quote]

well... except for the fact that GOONS leadership were committing alliance suicide and thus the chances of victory were zero squared.

[quote]
The OOC attacks only confirmed what the vast majority already knew, a GOONS run Hegemony would be one that no alliance could be safe in, a Pacifican run hegemony was more desirable.
[/quote]

so as an alternative to the hegemony where no alliance would be safe, you formed a hegemony that rolled THE GREEN PROTECTION AGENCY.

Let me repeat that again: as an alternative to the bad and terrible GOONS, you formed a hegemony that BEAT UP HIPPIES FOR FUN

again, I understand why it is so incredibly important for you to paint your side as the good guys, but you're [i]really[/i] going to have to do better.

[quote]
As for your last comment what part of "being disrespectful to other alliances makes you needless enemies" have you failed to grasp throughout my posts. Treating alliances like crap and walking all over them will result in them fighting against you when the opportunity arises, it did in the UJW and it did in KARMA. As I have said consistently GOONS 1.0 made to many enemies because of the way they treated other alliances, coupled with other factors this resulted in them being rolled. If you cannot see this then don't be reaching for them sun glasses to hastily.
[/quote]

GOONS 1.0 made a lot more enemies through how they acted than what they said. It's notable that when you justify the things that made IRON choose the side they chose, your first port of call is Shark Week. Shark Week isn't an example of rudeness or disrespect. It's an example of [i]attacking nations in other alliances[/i]. It's the [i]action[/i], not the choice or words or turn of phrase that caused Shark Week to be so contentious.

[Chief Savage Man]

I know that most of \m/ was joking about the UJP/kill everybody for fun stuff but I had no idea if GOONS was serious or not.

[King Srqt]

I'm still not convinced, but I will admit you have been growing on me. Congrats and I hope to see more of the things that have been impressing me of late than the things that remind me of old GOONS.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='24 May 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1274719953' post='2310326']
I know that most of \m/ was joking about the UJP/kill everybody for fun stuff but I had no idea if GOONS was serious or not.
[/quote]

I'm just talking of what I observed / later found out about some of GOONS leadership. I know the intentions of GOONS rank & file were noble.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='24 May 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1274718968' post='2310316']
Lots of stuff ignoring what you have said about disrespect previously
[/quote]

Honestly your complete an utter failure to recognise that [b]actions as well as words can be disrespectful is mind boggling[/b]. ATTACKING NATIONS IN OTHER ALLIANCES BECAUSE YOU ARE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DO SO IS DISRESPECTFUL. This makes you enemies. There are varying different degrees of disrespect, all of which are likely to have the same result but the reaction may be lesser or more severe dependent on the degree of said action. Treating people with disrespect makes enemies.

It is my belief that in the UJW we were the good guys, I have however publicly apologised for rolling GPA, I wasn't gov at the time but nevertheless it's a decision my alliance made that I do genuinely regret. The aftermath of the UJW is however totally irrelevant alliances making there minds up at the time had to pick between the UJP and NPO et al. GOONS 1.0 members at the time were commiting alliance suicide by !@#$ting over everyone, they were disrespectful and alienated potential neutral alliances or even friendly alliances.

Rudeness and disrespect are different, being rude in itself is not likely to win you very many friends, it is not however likely to get you rolled, mix it with disrespect though and you do begin to make enemies.

Yes GOONS was a threat to the Hegemony in the UJW.

Yes there is a comparison you share some similar attitudes but you are not nearly as bad as the originals, but there are some similarities. My aim was not however to prove you were the same alliance.

GOONS 1.0's treatment of other alliances prior to the UJW had a role to play in shaping the sides and the formidable opposition to GOONS.

[ktarthan]

Edit: You know what, this entire discussion doesn't make any sense. You aren't even trying to make a point - you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Not gonna continue this.

Edited May 24, 2010 by ktarthan

[lamuella]

you're redefining "a bit rude and disrespectful" to mean something about four light years away from my original use of the phrase. When I said we were "A bit rude and disrespectful" I was talking about forum conduct. Hence my constant harping on about words over actions.

THe things you are talking about are either:

1) things we are doing, which didn't get old GOONS rolled
2) things that got old GOONS rolled, which we aren't doing

so unless you're so focused on the term "disrespectful" that you can't pull your eye away from the page and see the context, or unless you actually think that we'd act like GOONS 1.0 did if given the chance, I really don't see what you're complaining about any more.

[Mixoux]

You guys should probably just admit it and satisfy everyone soon.

[Jakome]

[quote name='Mixoux' date='24 May 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1274721085' post='2310341']
You guys should probably just admit it and satisfy everyone soon.
[/quote]
GOONS

[lamuella]

[quote name='Mixoux' date='24 May 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1274721085' post='2310341']
You guys should probably just admit it and satisfy everyone soon.
[/quote]

that me and MCRABT are totally in love? I admit it.

[Cynic2]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='24 May 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1274720475' post='2310332']
ATTACKING NATIONS IN OTHER ALLIANCES BECAUSE YOU ARE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DO SO IS DISRESPECTFUL. This makes you enemies. There are varying different degrees of disrespect, all of which are likely to have the same result but the reaction may be lesser or more severe dependent on the degree of said action. Treating people with disrespect makes enemies.

It is my belief that in the UJW we were the good guys[/quote]

To be fair to the previous incarnation of GOONS they did also attack their own nations if they violated the premise of Shark Week, it wasn't just them attacking members of other alliances.

Fighting on the side of the current corrupt regime because one doesnt like the alternative does not the good guys make.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='24 May 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1274720465' post='2310331']
I'm just talking of what I observed / later found out about some of GOONS leadership. I know the intentions of GOONS rank & file were noble.
[/quote]

That's good.

[Il Impero Romano]

This GOONS has gone a long way in showing their outlook is quite different from that of their predecessors, despite the tactical similarities. Anyone who thinks otherwise should simply interact with them a bit.

Congrats on the flag.

[Hidraca]

I admit that I'm handsome and have shaved my neck beard. Don't tell my bosses though, they might revoke my GOON card.

[silentkiller]

While I really dont know old GOONS ( I was only a few weeks old when UJW started). The new Goons have always been a pleasure to talk to.

Also new flag is sexy

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='24 May 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1274677468' post='2309950']
It should never have been deleted in the first place.
[/quote]
That's what I said Neutral Shoving was around for 9 months after the flag went missing.

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='24 May 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1274703478' post='2310121']
It would be cowardly and foolish to eschew the traditions of GOONS and Something Awful just because a minority of the old version acted like complete lunatics. The new GOONS are still GOONS but I have more and more reason every day to believe they will not go down the same path the first rendition did. Why let the actions of a few people three years ago spoil an entire community?
[/quote]
[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='24 May 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1274710976' post='2310193']
GOONS' demise is linked directly to the unsavory actions of part of its government. The details are public knowledge and needn't be explained here. GOONS didn't end up disbanded because they were rude. GOONS ended up disbanded because their government and alliance as a whole had been ravaged by the consequences they all paid for the terrible actions of a few.
[/quote]
I have to apply a slightly different interpretation. After the crap hit the fan, most of the gov (the ones that hadn't already been banned) destroyed their nations and left 900 of us holding the bill. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] and Alastor were both mortified by THE incident, but the powers that be decided that Neutral Shoving could never be given peace regardless of who was in charge or who was left. So, yes, the actions of a few brought the roof down, but it was the refusal of our enemies to consider peace that brought about the June 11 disbandment by Alastor. Negligence and Sadism has more and more of the same grunts (who wer always innocent) every day, Sardonic and Lamuella were both Neutral Shoving, but for whatever reason the same people 180ed and decided that Salithus, Lamuella, and Sardonic, could be trusted with the same culture that Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] could not, even though both sets of leaders disavowed the actions of 404, hels, Crapolia, etc. Their decision might have come down to something as simple as passage of time, it might be as ironic as a failure to understand that they were coronating members of the Sept 2007 graduating class of Neutral Shoving. Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] would have done things as differently as Lamuella and Sardonic, it's just that the two were not given a chance and the other two were.

I'm glad you're finding success, I am hopeful you can understand my analysis as cold and not an accusation, I would have preferred rehab in 2008 with the same acronym.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Groucho Marx]

Evidently MCRABT holds a grudge. Who would have thought it?

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='24 May 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1274722702' post='2310354']
That's what I said Neutral Shoving was around for 9 months after the flag went missing.



I have to apply a slightly different interpretation. After the crap hit the fan, most of the gov (the ones that hadn't already been banned) destroyed their nations and left 900 of us holding the bill. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] and Alastor were both mortified by THE incident, but the powers that be decided that Neutral Shoving could never be given peace regardless of who was in charge or who was left. So, yes, the actions of a few brought the roof down, but it was the refusal of our enemies to consider peace that brought about the June 11 disbandment by Alastor. Negligence and Sadism has more and more of the same grunts (who wer always innocent) every day, Sardonic and Lamuella were both Neutral Shoving, but for whatever reason the same people 180ed and decided that Salithus, Lamuella, and Sardonic, could be trusted with the same culture that Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] could not, even though both sets of leaders disavowed the actions of 404, hels, Crapolia, etc. Their decision might have come down to something as simple as passage of time, it might be as ironic as a failure to understand that they were coronating members of the Sept 2007 graduating class of Neutral Shoving. Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] would have done things as differently as Lamuella and Sardonic, it's just that the two were not given a chance and the other two were.

I'm glad you're finding success, I am hopeful you can understand my analysis as cold and not an accusation, I would have preferred rehab in 2008 with the same acronym.
[/quote]

I have learned new things today.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='24 May 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1274713288' post='2310232']
It's kinda funny that people are arguing against MCRABT of all people about why GOONS got rolled.

Hint: [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=1053&view=findpost&p=20359]he was there.[/url]
[/quote]
I too find it hilarious that people are arguing with MCRABT, though I'm sure that's for a different reason than you.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='24 May 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1274722702' post='2310354']
That's what I said :) Neutral Shoving was around for 9 months after the flag went missing.



I have to apply a slightly different interpretation. After the crap hit the fan, most of the gov (the ones that hadn't already been banned) destroyed their nations and left 900 of us holding the bill. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] and Alastor were both mortified by THE incident, but the powers that be decided that Neutral Shoving could never be given peace regardless of who was in charge or who was left. So, yes, the actions of a few brought the roof down, but it was the refusal of our enemies to consider peace that brought about the June 11 disbandment by Alastor. Negligence and Sadism has more and more of the same grunts (who wer always innocent) every day, Sardonic and Lamuella were both Neutral Shoving, but for whatever reason the same people 180ed and decided that Salithus, Lamuella, and Sardonic, could be trusted with the same culture that Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] could not, even though both sets of leaders disavowed the actions of 404, hels, Crapolia, etc. Their decision might have come down to something as simple as passage of time, it might be as ironic as a failure to understand that they were coronating members of the Sept 2007 graduating class of Neutral Shoving. Alastor and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showuser=2116"]banned member[/url] would have done things as differently as Lamuella and Sardonic, it's just that the two were not given a chance and the other two were.

I'm glad you're finding success, I am hopeful you can understand my analysis as cold and not an accusation, I would have preferred rehab in 2008 with the same acronym.
[/quote]
When it comes to saying the things some of us want to say but can't find the right words for, you are a master, good sir.