Who's Tech Dealing With The Gramlins

[Mushroom Man]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 April 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1272457259' post='2278430']
nothing. i showed that Gremlins has lost 2 nations over 35k NS compared to IRON's 1 nation. if Gremlins continues to lose 2 nations over 35k NS then Gremlins will lose the advantage. IRON will most likely end up staying the same number since sooner or later, they will most likely start to gain nations even if they do lose some nations occasionally.

you did exactly as Matt did and looked at the surface instead of delving beneath it. on the surface, yes, the ratio slid slightly more into Gremlins favor currently, but do you honestly think it will continue that way? again, especially if Gre continues to either have their upper NS nations delete or leave the alliance? now this may not happen, but then there is the fact that the mid-tier NS is significantly in IRON/DAWN's favor and thus, soon Gre won't have any 40k or below nations unless they are ZIed nations.

but yes, i am a complete moron who can't seem to grasp being corrected, despite explaining myself quite clearly in the post you quoted... the fact that i stated "should you continue to LOSE your upper NS nations" should have pointed you in the direction i was going (i.e. just in case, the first set of numbers was 32 to 10. this means that Gremlins had 32 nations over 50K NS and IRON had 10 nations over 50k NS. follow me thus far Mushroom Man???? now, the second set of numbers was 30 to 9. this means that Gremlins had 30 nations over 50k NS and IRON had 9 nations over 50k NS. okay. now if you take 32 and subtract 30 from it, you get 2 nations left over. this means that Gremlins lost 2 nations. now if you take 10 and subtract 9 from it, you get 1 nation left over. this means that IRON lost 1 nation. which number out of 2 and 1 is larger? now, i also go on to explain the fact that IRON will more than likely start gaining nations instead of continuing to lose them, which means that if Gremlins continues to lose their upper NS at a rate of around 2 every couple of weeks, then Gremlins will lose the advantage they currently hold. now i am unsure if i could honestly break this concept down any further but i could try to go Barney style if you still do not understand Mushroom Man.) next time i suggest instead of just trying to insult me, you actually take a look at what it is i am discussing, otherwise, you just make yourself look like a fool.
[/quote]
I don't understand how you are continuing to use a trend quite clearly in Gremlins favour to try and convince me that eventually Gremlins will lose. If you want to tell me Gremlins will lose, don't even mention the goddamn trend that is in their favour. It's quite simple, Barney man.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1272491278' post='2278837']
Your misinformation is stunning.
IRON and DAWN have not been asked to decommission military wonders, nor have they been asked to demilitarize [b]before[/b] they surrender.
[/quote]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1271103762' post='2257632']
What I stated was that I would never "accept whatever terms were offered"
If terms are eventually offered and IRON does not accept them that is their prerogative. [b]Certainly after demilitarizing it may place them in a different position as the "bargaining table" if you will and it opens them up to a different risk.
But there is no reason why IRON couldn't retrain soldiers, tanks, aircraft, CM etc very quickly should they find terms unacceptable.[/b]
[/quote]

Your words mot mine. Do try again, and try not to fail so hard this time. There are iRC logs With Ram telling IRON gov not to come to him again till they have demilitarized. You know this to be true so I don’t know what game you are trying to play here.

edit: for bold text

Edited April 28, 2010 by ironchef

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='ironchef' date='28 April 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1272494444' post='2278906']
Your words mot mine. Do try again, and try not to fail so hard this time. There are iRC logs With Ram telling IRON gov not to come to him again till they have demilitarized. You know this to be true so I don’t know what game you are trying to play here.

edit: for bold text
[/quote]


I have also said that my words express my opinions and are not official positions of GRE.

In fact, I believe that my response was to somebody asking for my opinion. My opinion is still that IRON/DAWN will need to demilitarize but that isn't up to me.

But the premise that they need to demilitarize before they can surrender is simply false as is your claim that GRE has demanded them to decom military wonders.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Matthew PK

[ironchef]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1272491278' post='2278837']
IRON and DAWN have not been asked to decommission military wonders, nor have they been asked to demilitarize [b]before[/b] they surrender.
[/quote]

That looks like you proclaiming a fact not an opinion yet you know it is not the truth because they have been asked, no told to do just that before Ram will even talk to them. I’m not the one whose misinformation is stunning, that would be you Matt with your lies. You do nothing but come here and post misinformation to make your nut job of a leader look like he has not lost all sense of reality and that you all know what he is doing.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1272495304' post='2278927']
I have also said that my words express my opinions and are not official positions of GRE.
[/quote]

Yes Ironchef, everyone knows that the 'official' position of the Gremlins and their leadership is written down for all to see just like their Codex they love so much. I will give you a copy though....

Here, I hope you enjoy it

[img]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m312/legionbanners/Hosting/cjsgramlinspropaganda.gif[/img]

Edited April 29, 2010 by chefjoe

[Thomas Jackson]

[quote name='chefjoe' date='28 April 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1272497849' post='2279016']
Yes Ironchef, everyone knows that the 'official' position of the Gremlins and their leadership is written down for all to see just like their Codex they love so much. I will give you a copy though....

Here, I hope you enjoy it

[img]http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w146/chefjoesb/biggerbooks_bastards-1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Where may I purchase a copy of this glorious text?

[wickedj]

20 pages of back and forth surely theres something BETTER to argue about around here..Wheres AUT and Penkala when you need them to stir the pot

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='ironchef' date='28 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1272496024' post='2278953']
That looks like you proclaiming a fact not an opinion yet you know it is not the truth because they have been asked, no told to do just that before Ram will even talk to them. I’m not the one whose misinformation is stunning, that would be you Matt with your lies. You do nothing but come here and post misinformation to make your nut job of a leader look like he has not lost all sense of reality and that you all know what he is doing.
[/quote]

Demonstrate to me that IRON/DAWN have been told to destroy military wonders by GRE as a condition of their surrender.

[ironchef]

Thank you so much CJ I now possess the knowledge of the ages

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1272481888' post='2278690']
But the reality is and was that GRE demands your surrender before discussing terms.
[/quote]
Wait, so you're not demanding unconditional surrender anymore?

(Hint: People who receive unconditional surrenders don't discuss terms, they dictate them, at their sole whim.)

[ironchef]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1272491278' post='2278837']
IRON and DAWN have not been asked to decommission military wonders, nor have they been asked to demilitarize [b]before[/b] they surrender.
[/quote]


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1272495304' post='2278927']
I have also said that my words express my opinions and are not official positions of GRE.
My opinion is still that IRON/DAWN will need to demilitarize but that isn't up to me.
But the premise that they need to demilitarize before they can surrender is simply false as is your claim that GRE has demanded them to decom military wonders.
[/quote]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1271103762' post='2257632']
What I stated was that I would never "accept whatever terms were offered"
If terms are eventually offered and IRON does not accept them that is their prerogative. [b]Certainly after demilitarizing it may place them in a different position as the "bargaining table" if you will and it opens them up to a different risk.
But there is no reason why IRON couldn't retrain soldiers, tanks, aircraft, CM etc very quickly should they find terms unacceptable.[/b][/quote]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1272499132' post='2279055']
Demonstrate to me that IRON/DAWN have been told to destroy military wonders by GRE as a condition of their surrender.
[/quote]

No Matt. You need to Demonstrate to me that they are not. Show me a list of what is being asked of them. Oh you cant because you all dont write things down, you just talk out your $@! till we all go
One day its one story then another the next. If you dont know what is being asked of IRON and DWAN by your alliance then for the love of Admin stop posting that you do. Dont come here and say they are not being asked to do something if you dont know what it is that is being asked of them. Your cant have it both ways.

Edited April 29, 2010 by ironchef

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='ironchef' date='28 April 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1272502011' post='2279116']
No Matt. You need to Demonstrate to me that they are not. Show me a list of what is being asked of them. Oh you cant because you all dont write things down, you just talk out your $@! till we all go
One day its one story then another the next. If you dont know what is being asked of IRON and DWAN by your alliance then for the love of Admin stop posting that you do. Dont come here and say they are not being asked to do something if you dont know what it is that is being asked of them. Your cant have it both ways.
[/quote]

They are being asked to surrender.
What happens next is speculation or (as you've been keen to repost) my opinion.
Of course [b]I[/b] think some demilitarization is a logical next step and you conjured the notion of wonder decoms.
You asked me to prove they have not been asked to decom wonders? It has not been asked. QED.

I know what's being asked, I don't know what the next steps will be.
The story has always been the same; it's your frustration that's clouding your ability to comprehend it, apparently.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1272508205' post='2279231']
They are being asked to surrender.
What happens next is speculation or (as you've been keen to repost) my opinion.
Of course [b]I[/b] think some demilitarization is a logical next step and you conjured the notion of wonder decoms.
You asked me to prove they have not been asked to decom wonders? It has not been asked. QED.

I know what's being asked, I don't know what the next steps will be.
The story has always been the same; it's your frustration that's clouding your ability to comprehend it, apparently.
[/quote]

You seem to have omitted the all-important word, the one that has caused so much outrage. Is this a fundamental change in your stance or simply a slip of the keyboard?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='28 April 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1272501854' post='2279114']
Wait, so you're not demanding unconditional surrender anymore?

(Hint: People who receive unconditional surrenders don't discuss terms, they dictate them, at their sole whim.)
[/quote]

And, after the surrender, if the stipulated terms are unacceptable hostilities resume.
Any claim to the contrary is idiocy.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='28 April 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1272508618' post='2279242']
You seem to have omitted the all-important word, the one that has caused so much outrage. Is this a fundamental change in your stance or simply a slip of the keyboard?
[/quote]
without conditions, unconditionally, etc.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1272508659' post='2279243']
And, after the surrender, if the stipulated terms are unacceptable hostilities resume.
Any claim to the contrary is [b]idiocy.[/b]
[/quote]
...and yet...well, ok

[amad123]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1272508659' post='2279243']
And, after the surrender, if the stipulated terms are unacceptable hostilities resume. Any claim to the contrary is idiocy.
[/quote]

When you stop fighting and start to discuss "Peace Terms" that's called a "Cease Fire" not "Unconditional Surrender and if you don't like the terms go back to fighting."

Edit: Hey are you saying that all this time all Gramlins really wanted was a "Cease Fire" but they didn't know the correct term?

Edited April 29, 2010 by amad123

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='amad123' date='28 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1272508880' post='2279247']
When you stop fighting and start to discuss "Peace Terms" that's called a "Cease Fire" not "Unconditional Surrender and if you don't like the terms go back to fighting."
[/quote]

A "cease fire" is implied in a surrender. But a "surrender" is not implied in a cease fire.

A surrender is effectively an admission of defeat, while a cease fire is not.

[amad123]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272509174' post='2279255']
A "cease fire" is implied in a surrender. But a "surrender" is not implied in a cease fire.A surrender is effectively an admission of defeat, while a cease fire is not.
[/quote]

If your saying it is okay to resume hostilities if the terms are unacceptable it's a "Cease Fire".

To resume hostilities after "Surrendering" would be dishonourable.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='amad123' date='29 April 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1272509496' post='2279262']
To resume hostilities after "Surrendering" would be dishonourable.
[/quote]

Not in every case. The Grämlins want the offenders to admit defeat and show a little humility before they talk about terms. If they did that in good faith but still cant agree on terms of course there would be no other choice but to resume hostilities at that point, but it's an entirely theoretical point anyway.

Perhaps it's easier for me to understand this, having been through the first war between GRE and IRON and felt the frustration provoked by the BS way that war was brought to an end myself, but I honestly thought it was reasonably clear from the start. As long as the offenders continue claiming they are winning, as long as they continue to proclaim that they will not apologise for anything, ever, and have never once done anything wrong, GRE really has no option but to continue to fight. This should surprise no one, it surprises me that so many seem not to understand it quite frankly.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1272509174' post='2279255']
A "cease fire" is implied in a surrender. But a "surrender" is not implied in a cease fire.

A surrender is effectively an admission of defeat, while a cease fire is not.
[/quote]

IRON admitted defeat. They surrendered to CnG. They tried to surrender to you, and had agreed to terms - but you withdrew your offer and wanted something more - unconditional surrender.

Unconditional surrender is slavery. At that point, you can do anything to them you want. And since you can't beat them, there is certainly no reason to trust that you *might* be merciful. You had a chance to accept their surrender, receive reparations, and move on, but you refused it.

Sometimes a queen sacrifice is a good move. You decided to play the rarely successful king sacrifice instead.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='28 April 2010 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1272513920' post='2279346']
Perhaps it's easier for me to understand this, having been through the first war between GRE and IRON and felt the frustration provoked by the BS way that war was brought to an end myself, but I honestly thought it was reasonably clear from the start. As long as the offenders continue claiming they are winning, as long as they continue to proclaim that they will not apologise for anything, ever, and have never once done anything wrong, GRE really has no option but to continue to fight. This should surprise no one, it surprises me that so many seem not to understand it quite frankly.
[/quote]

When the Easter Sunday Accords were posted, IRON did surrender. The only reason Gramlins didn't get a surrender from IRON is because they refused to accept it. They wanted something more, something they weren't expecting IRON to agree to if they told them, so they tried to cover it with the "unconditional surrender" blanket. And that plan seems like a pretty clear failure.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='28 April 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1272513920' post='2279346']
Not in every case. The Grämlins want the offenders to admit defeat and show a little humility before they talk about terms. If they did that in good faith but still cant agree on terms of course there would be no other choice but to resume hostilities at that point, but it's an entirely theoretical point anyway.

Perhaps it's easier for me to understand this, having been through the first war between GRE and IRON and felt the frustration provoked by the BS way that war was brought to an end myself, but I honestly thought it was reasonably clear from the start. As long as the offenders continue claiming they are winning, as long as they continue to proclaim that they will not apologise for anything, ever, and have never once done anything wrong, GRE really has no option but to continue to fight. This should surprise no one, it surprises me that so many seem not to understand it quite frankly.
[/quote]

The problem isnt with understanding what Gre wants Sigrun...its more of the nature of wondering why anyone would comply or even back up Gremlins actions...

IE: Gre is asking IRON to drop their pants and bend over and close their eyes while Gre stands behind them naked saying 'dont worry we promise nothing you cant handle will happen' 'umm why cant you tell us before we bend over why your naked and what is going to happen?' 'DUDE, dont worry! It wont be that bad I promise. Just do it! For your own good I swear!'....

I am pretty sure if you were IRON in that position you would be doing the same thing they are doing, saying 'ummmm NO THANKS'

Edited April 29, 2010 by chefjoe

[KainIIIC]

IRON just doesn't know how to take it like a man..

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='chefjoe' date='29 April 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1272517352' post='2279457']
The problem isnt with understanding what Gre wants Sigrun...its more of the nature of wondering why anyone would comply or even back up Gremlins actions...

IE: Gre is asking IRON to drop their pants and bend over and close their eyes while Gre stands behind them naked saying 'dont worry we promise nothing you cant handle will happen' 'umm why cant you tell us before we bend over why your naked and what is going to happen?' 'DUDE, dont worry! It wont be that bad I promise. Just do it! For your own good I swear!'....

I am pretty sure if you were IRON in that position you would be doing the same thing they are doing, saying 'ummmm NO THANKS'
[/quote]

This ^ and lol

[ironchef]

I have to say CJ you have a way of putting things like no other. You get the point across and drive it home.