The New Grämlins

[Bob Janova]

Crymson may have his faults, and I'll agree with Chill that he (along with Saber) was the cause of much friction in the Grä-TOP relationship (and Citadel as a whole) at times. But at least when he was doing that it was as a rational and partially representative pragmatic attachment to the NPO hegemony, not being completely ridiculous as Ram is here. Anyone who remembers those Citadel debates will know I'm no Crymson fan (and the entry in this war and his diplomacy during the TPF war show he's not lost his touch at annoying people or making poor decisions). But to compare him to Ram is a grave insult and really not accurate. He has not led TOP off a cliff – he has made one bad decision that led to them losing a war and having to pay large reparations, but the community and member count is intact.

Now, I agree that it is not a thread about Crymson so I'll leave it there. But I thought that needed saying.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='19 April 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1271691285' post='2266313']
[color="#0000FF"]I'd give it a bit longer. They won't drag Gremlins down easily. Wait for the rest of the sane people to leave first. IRON should then be able to destroy them.[/color]
[/quote]
Ah [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=242160"]this philosopher[/url] could probably help us spot the irony.

[Crymson]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='19 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1271700859' post='2266511']
From what i have been told from sources, the logs are real D:. But yeah if they were fake im sure mr PK and his awesome PR would be screaming blue murder by now.
[/quote]

We agree!

[Crymson]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='19 April 2010 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1271700979' post='2266514']
Crymson may have his faults, and I'll agree with Chill that he (along with Saber) was the cause of much friction in the Grä-TOP relationship (and Citadel as a whole) at times. But at least when he was doing that it was as a rational and partially representative pragmatic attachment to the NPO hegemony, not being completely ridiculous as Ram is here. Anyone who remembers those Citadel debates will know I'm no Crymson fan (and the entry in this war and his diplomacy during the TPF war show he's not lost his touch at annoying people or making poor decisions). But to compare him to Ram is a grave insult and really not accurate. He has not led TOP off a cliff – he has made one bad decision that led to them losing a war and having to pay large reparations, but the community and member count is intact.

Now, I agree that it is not a thread about Crymson so I'll leave it there. But I thought that needed saying.
[/quote]

The Citadel was always one of my weakest points. I always knew this.

I agree that my conduct in the WWE and in the recent war was well below par. While this was almost in its entirety due to real life circumstances, I do feel a significant amount of guilt for not measuring up whilst in a position of responsibility to others. I'm told by many in TOP that I'm too hard on myself for the whole affair.

[Ejayrazz]

Crymson caused friction just as much as some certain Gremlins' caused friction. Some of the old Gremlins could get cranky just like Crymson could. Sometimes we'd be at each other's throats, but we always were there as allies in the end - ALWAYS. Yes, there was friction but Crymson could admit when he was being an idiot; just like us Gremlins would admit it. The difference? This is an idiot move by Gre and what scares me is they refuse to admit it, even more odd is you can't say "GRE BELIEVES IN THIS!"..No, "some Gre" believe in it while MANY despise it. As I said, those against this recent move will leave, and they ARE, but it saddens me they'd be willing to sacrifice many members (who have served Gre for a long time and did so honorably) over a stunt which is failing in every aspect.

Also, Matthew: TOP comparison with unconditional surrender are no where similar. Also, Hi. I still love you.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[Lennox]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1271701306' post='2266519']
Ah [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=242160"]this philosopher[/url] could probably help us spot the irony.
[/quote]

What? I don't get it?

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='19 April 2010 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1271701974' post='2266536']
Crymson caused friction just as much as some certain Gremlins' caused friction. Some of the old Gremlins could get cranky just like Crymson could. Sometimes we'd be at each other's throats, but we always were there as allies in the end - ALWAYS. Yes, there was friction but Crymson could admit when he was being an idiot; just like us Gremlins would admit it. The difference? This is an idiot move by Gre and what scares me is they refuse to admit it, even more odd is you can't say "GRE BELIEVES IN THIS!"..No, "some Gre" believe in it while MANY despise it. As I said, those against this recent move will leave, and they ARE, but it saddens me they'd be willing to sacrifice many members (who have served Gre for a long time and did so honorably) over a stunt which is failing in every aspect.

Also, Matthew: TOP comparison with unconditional surrender are no where similar. Also, Hi. I still love you.
[/quote]

If, as you purport, members will continue to abandon GRE, and we all have an agreement that GRE are doing it to themselves by being unreasonable, then the best course of action is to end this silly debate nonsense, and let nature run its course. One of three things will happen. And, at the end, we will know who was right, and who was wrong.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1271699097' post='2266469']Aww. Is the backlash to your totally stupid path of argument in this thread spurring you to take shots at other alliances? Aww... waaaah..
[/quote]

No, I'm simply commenting on the fact that all the talk of "never"s is particularly ill-placed.
For somebody to say what GRE will "never" do is incredibly presumptuous; comparable to the claim of what TOP would "never" do.

I'm not criticizing TOP's surrender decisions at all; simply highlighting them as disproof by counter-example to the idea of things that will "never happen"

Edited April 19, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Lennox' date='19 April 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1271702132' post='2266539']
What? I don't get it?
[/quote]
A particular Mr. [b]Camus[/b], is he a [b]stranger[/b] to you?

Edited April 19, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1271699097' post='2266469']
Haha. I really tickled a nerve on you back in the day, didn't I? And the best way you can come back at me is with comments such as, "Crymson was bad in the Citadel" and "TOP's government isn't accountable to its members!" The former is very much a subjective assessment, and the latter is something you know nothing about. But does it work for you? If so, keep on.
[/quote]
I guess you could call the actions of TOP (mostly led by you and Saber) back in the day "tickling a nerve" in the same way that beheading someone is "giving them a close shave". The former assertion is based on your manipulation of Citadel for TOP's own interests, largely at the expense of the FCC (to be fair, we should've left it after the first time you screwed us but that's another story). As for the latter, it's based on observations based on things I have first and second-hand knowledge on from back in the day, which was supplemented by reports that in this war your membership voted "yes" to war but had no control over how it happened (leading to it blowing up in your face). So the only knowledge of TOP's relationship between its government and its membership is based on past precedents and current evidence, but I guess that's "nothing".

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1271702653' post='2266553']
A particular Mr. [b]Camus[/b], is he a [b]stranger[/b] to you?
[/quote]
This has no relevance whatsoever, looking at your posts in this thread, you are in no position to to educate others.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='19 April 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1271703062' post='2266560']
This has no relevance whatsoever, looking at your posts in this thread, you are in no position to to educate others.
[/quote]

It was a response to the notions of sanity and our behavior. It's completely relevant and I apologize if you are unable to see why.

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1271703279' post='2266561']
It was a response to the notions of sanity and our behavior. It's completely relevant and I apologize if you are unable to see why.
[/quote]
No, I just don't like your smug attitude about someone who honestly might not have heard of Albert Camus, which once more, is pretty irrelevant. Your smug attitude with me is understandable considering your alliance is continuing on its insane course, and you believe in it, but it doesn't serve you well anyways.

Edited April 19, 2010 by shilo

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='19 April 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1271703624' post='2266568']
No, I just don't like your smug attitude about someone who honestly might not have heard of Albert Camus, which once more, is pretty irrelevant. Your smug attitude with me is understandable considering your alliance is continuing on its insane course, and you believe in it, but it doesn't serve you well anyways.
[/quote]
It's less smugness and more the requirement to maintain character in this political circus. I suspect that for information on anything discussed here there may be googols of documents.
Given the circumstance, I think I did very well in directing him to the information I'd like him to find.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='lebubu' date='19 April 2010 - 07:14 AM' timestamp='1271679227' post='2266175']
Do tell us more about Grämlins' allies. [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/gush.gif[/img]
[/quote]

there is a reason why i said allies and not friends.

[quote name='King Chill I' date='19 April 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1271698637' post='2266447']
Actually, he is right and you are wrong.

Here is some 3rd grade creative thinking for the CB that you dont really need.

Gre have been mean to our little friends in IRON, we like IRON, IRON being hurt hurts us, because Gre are mean we think they might hurt IRON again so we gonna hurt them first.

You should know since you colored between some of the same lines very recently.
[/quote]

that sounds strikingly similar to why Gremlins are keeping IRON in this war. strikingly similar. not sure bout DAWN though.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1271703763' post='2266572']
It's less smugness and more the requirement to maintain character in this political circus. I suspect that the information on anything discussed here can be discovered by the googols.
Given the circumstance, I think I did very well in directing him to the information I'd like him to find.
[/quote]

yes, someone who is named Camus but to my knowledge has done nothing, at least publicly, in their time on CN nor are they in an alliance that has any relation to this situation whatsoever needs to be discussed now? come on Matt, you are just getting desperate now it seems. the nation you linked to has nothing to do with this thread or Gre's actions. not has Legion done anything remotely comparable to what Gre is doing now.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='19 April 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1271704850' post='2266592']
yes, someone who is named Camus but to my knowledge has done nothing, at least publicly, in their time on CN nor are they in an alliance that has any relation to this situation whatsoever needs to be discussed now? come on Matt, you are just getting desperate now it seems. the nation you linked to has nothing to do with this thread or Gre's actions. not has Legion done anything remotely comparable to what Gre is doing now.
[/quote]

Yes, I myself was certain the more relevant name was L’Étranger, but alas there is no ruler by that name as far as I can tell.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1271705045' post='2266596']
Yes, I myself was certain the more relevant name was L’Étranger, but alas there is no ruler by that name as far as I can tell.
[/quote]

no, pretty certain that would not be relevant either unless L'Etranger had something to do with this mess here. so again, you can try and sidetrack this with irrelevant stuff but thus far it has stuck on topic and will do so most likely for a bit longer than you want.

[Lord Brendan]

[i]"Il dit que trop d’hommes restaient inactifs, que l’épidémie était l’affaire de chacun et que chacun devait faire son devoir. "[/i]

Even Camus agrees that this affair is everyone's business.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1271702653' post='2266553']
A particular Mr. [b]Camus[/b], is he a [b]stranger[/b] to you?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I understand your reference but I didn't bother responding because it makes absolutely no sense. What does existentialism have to do with any of this mess? Unless of course Gremlins is just grasping at straws....if even that....just to say something. Something at all. It doesn't even have to be relevant. Really, have you guys fallen that far?[/color]

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='19 April 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1271706946' post='2266626']
[color="#0000FF"]I understand your reference but I didn't bother responding because it makes absolutely no sense. What does existentialism have to do with any of this mess? Unless of course Gremlins is just grasping at straws....if even that....just to say something. Something at all. It doesn't even have to be relevant. Really, have you guys fallen that far?[/color]
[/quote]

My intention was to make a point about what the world seems to label absurdities. The appeal to some larger concept of rationality exerted by "you" on "us" is equally unfounded here.
In attempting to highlight the absurdity, cruelty or inappropriate nature of our actions I contend that people are, themselves, nearly meeting their own criteria (but not mine, of course)

I suppose it was a shot in the dark; it's much more likely for the loudest GRE opposition here to stick to the lines most easily echoed by the uninformed horde behind them. Why try to divert the floodwaters, I suppose.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Wes Walz Pants]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='19 April 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1271700691' post='2266507']
Catchphrases? Like RAMlins? [b]Or Namlins?[/b] Indeed, nice use of catchphrases. Hypocrisy, is a grand thing.
[/quote]
Too be fair that was requested by one of the few sane Gramlins left in Wonderland. All hail Omas!

[quote name='Liman Von Sanders' date='19 April 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1271700960' post='2266513']
Gramlins offers terms, IRON accepts, Gramlins rescinds terms and opts for way harsher terms...
What is wrong with this picture??
Kinda reminds one of a certain other alliance..oh wait.
[/quote]
Are you looking for the word Hypocrisy? O dear.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='19 April 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1271702177' post='2266540']
If, as you purport, members will continue to abandon GRE, [b]and we all have an agreement that GRE are doing it to themselves by being unreasonable, then the best course of action is to end this silly debate nonsense, and let nature run its course.[/b] One of three things will happen. And, at the end, we will know who was right, and who was wrong.
[/quote]
No we have an agreement that 2 sovereign alliances were granted peace via surrender and yet they are held at war STILL by your friends, Rush. This is not an internal Gramlins problem but one with interest across Planet Bob. Again do you not want your reps payments or are you just hoping to keep IRON under terms for the next 2 years while letting someone else do the dirty work?

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Calderone' date='20 April 2010 - 01:19 AM' timestamp='1271708340' post='2266657']
No we have an agreement that 2 sovereign alliances were granted peace via surrender and yet they are held at war STILL by your friends, Rush. This is not an internal Gramlins problem but one with interest across Planet Bob. Again do you not want your reps payments or are you just hoping to keep IRON under terms for the next 2 years while letting someone else do the dirty work?
[/quote]
Those are just absurd claims Calderone! You wait and watch, Gramlins friends and allies will come and clarify they are not enabling in any shape or form! No u.

[Sandwich Controversy]

mk is not enabling in any way, shape, or form

edit: no u

Edited April 19, 2010 by Sandwich Controversy

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1271703763' post='2266572']
I think I did very well in directing him to the information I'd like him to find.
[/quote]

It's time for your alliance to stop the petty child's play and direct Planet Bob to the information that we would like to find.

Answer the questions asked of you and knock off the deflection.

[Carlton the Great]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='19 April 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1271709352' post='2266691']
mk is not enabling in any way, shape, or form

edit: no u
[/quote]
Then make a public statement that you will not interfere with alliances coming to the defense of IRON.