The New Grämlins

[Penkala]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='22 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1274556936' post='2308264']
..or, we can be realistic and realize that fighting isn't always the best option.


The ghist of your entire post. Now that we've drawn out your clear bias against IRON, let's get a few things straight.

We aren't whining. We aren't complaining. If anything, we are frustrated over how stupid this entire affair is. Don't take our posts on the forums to mean whining or crying, because they aren't.

Oh, and boo hoo, whine whine whine, cry.



It doesn't, and we don't. The reason Gremlins is losing strength is because most of your members find this situation unacceptable and are leaving. Our 'tactics', fighting or not fighting, really won't have anywhere near as much impact as your own policies.
[/quote]
My problem is with the whining over a half dozen threads and over 200 pages of posts. It's ridiculous. If you're going to take a 'wait them out' approach, quit complaining about how long it's taking. If it's taking too long, then gather some outsiders and attack them. If neither of these are acceptable, surrender. It's really that simple. But whining when YOU took the strategy of continuing the war for months is annoying.

And yes, you are whining. And you are complaining.

[quote]Obviously, Option 3 is best, but Penkala wants Option 1. Of course, it's probably only so that he can see IRON/DAWN hurt even more and not actually because he thinks it's the best option for IRON.[/quote]

No, that's not true. What I've stated (several times!) is that [b][u]if you're going to choose to wait Gremlins out, quit complaining about how long it is taking and how long Gremlins is keeping you at war.[/u][/b]

I also pointed out their other options to end this more quickly.

Please don't twist my words because you can't defeat my argument.

[quote]We reserve the right to demand a compensation from them.[/quote]

No, you don't, really. They haven't done any more damage to you since the war ended. So you have no claim to compensation. Hell they aren't even asking it of you, and you caused this war.

Go ahead and try and get reps from Gremlins, though. I doubt they'll accept them, and then YOU'LL be the one holding THEM in perpetual war. Plus, SG *may* have a problem with you taking reps from this war, especially if you'll use them to pay what you owe to SG (yes, what YOU owe, out-of-pocket. Not what Gremlins has to pay for you). Not saying they will have a problem with it, but they might.

And frankly, asking for punitive damages from Gremlins is really pushing your luck.

[quote]No! Listen to Penkala, he is a military genius!

Its funny that Gramlins and their supporters are now down to a cry to "Please make a suicide run at us!"[/quote]

You know you're right when your detractors have to twist your words. I'll say it slow for you Woody: You... Can... Use... This... Strategy... Just... Don't... Whine... About... It... Taking... So... Long... When... You... Have... Half... A... Dozen... Ways... To... Speed... It... Up...

Now debate my statement or don't bother responding. Redefining my position on this issue is not a debate tactic, Woody. Either confront the statement or don't.

[quote]This can end as soon as Gre is willing to admit wrongdoing and pay what will likely be light restitution. [/quote]

Once again, pushing it. If I were SG I wouldn't allow IRON/DAWN to demand reps, especially when they're taking virtually no damage.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']
My problem is with the whining over a half dozen threads and over 200 pages of posts. It's ridiculous. If you're going to take a 'wait them out' approach, quit complaining about how long it's taking. If it's taking too long, then gather some outsiders and attack them. If neither of these are acceptable, surrender. It's really that simple. But whining when YOU took the strategy of continuing the war for months is annoying.

And yes, you are whining. And you are complaining.
[/quote]
This thread has been about us arguing with Matthew_PK and Ertyy over why they are wrong. Not whining or complaining. As to your final point, I'll bite.

Show me where I've whined.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']No, that's not true. What I've stated (several times!) is that [b][u]if you're going to choose to wait Gremlins out, quit complaining about how long it is taking and how long Gremlins is keeping you at war.[/u][/b][/quote]
So if you have cancer, and the best option is chemotherapy, you can't complain about the sickness it gives you?

Since when is complaining about how the best option isn't perfect somehow wrong?

[quote]I also pointed out their other options to end this more quickly.[/quote]
Yeah, that they were:
1. Getting volunteers. The thing about volunteers is that you can't force them to come over.
2. Making your allies come in. Yes, reigniting a war to receive a curbstomp is a WONDERFUL strategy.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Penkala' date='23 May 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']
blip
[/quote]

You...seem...to...be...whining...the...most, uMad?

The strategy is simple atm, minimize cost and maximize damage.

War is imposed on us for a stupid reason, and we'll continue to share opinion on it as long as it persists. War ends when Gre decides to accept our offer. They are the bottleneck.

[heikk-i]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='22 May 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1274560298' post='2308335']
So if you have cancer, and the best option is chemotherapy, you can't complain about the sickness it gives you?

[/quote]
I love the metaphor, IRON/DAWN giving radiation therapy with nukes for couple cancer cells at a time. You obviously can't surrender to the cancer, you never know what those things might do. You also cannot try to kill the cancer with a single radiation shot because of the huge adverse effects.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying Grämlins is a tumour. Calling an alliance that would be just rude

Edited May 22, 2010 by heikk-i

[Penkala]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='22 May 2010 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1274560182' post='2308331']
This thread has been about us arguing with Matthew_PK and Ertyy over why they are wrong. Not whining or complaining. As to your final point, I'll bite.

Show me where I've whined.
[/quote]

IRON hasn't whined about this war. Rightttttttttt. Why do I even bother? You can't accept simple facts.

[quote]So if you have cancer, and the best option is chemotherapy, you can't complain about the sickness it gives you?[/quote]

If you were the one who took the cancer and put it in your body, if the cancer was doing no damage to you, if you could just tell the cancer "OK stop I give" and it would go away, if you could have had your friends help you cure the cancer earlier, and if a surgeon could just go in and cut the cancer out, then no, you can't complain about driving back to the doctor twice a week for the non-painful chemotherapy process.

Nice analogy, though.

[quote]I love the metaphor, IRON/DAWN giving radiation therapy with nukes for couple cancer cells at a time. You obviously can't surrender to the cancer, you never know what those things might do. You also cannot try to kill the cancer with a single radiation shot because of the huge adverse effects.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying Grämlins is a tumour. Calling an alliance that would be just rude[/quote]

More like IRON/DAWN killing a couple of isolated cancer cells while leaving the massive tumors in place because man that'd be a lot of effort!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']No, you don't, really. They haven't done any more damage to you since the war ended. So you have no claim to compensation. Hell they aren't even asking it of you, and you caused this war.

Go ahead and try and get reps from Gremlins, though. I doubt they'll accept them, and then YOU'LL be the one holding THEM in perpetual war. Plus, SG *may* have a problem with you taking reps from this war, especially if you'll use them to pay what you owe to SG (yes, what YOU owe, out-of-pocket. Not what Gremlins has to pay for you). Not saying they will have a problem with it, but they might.[/quote]First, I don't ask for your permission to demand anything from Gramlins.
Second, they have caused us great damages by keeping us in the war.
Third, demanding a compensation from Gramlins for these damages is reasonable, unlike their pointless insistence of continuing the war when all other alliances from their side have accept the Easter Sunday Accords as a reasonable settlement of the Conflict.
Fourth, nobody can have any issue with us reaching any reasonable settlement with Gramlins.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Golan 1st

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1274561121' post='2308349']
IRON hasn't whined about this war. Rightttttttttt. Why do I even bother? You can't accept simple facts. [/quote]
Wow, that was an impressive way to dodge my request. You really proved yourself right by doing that. I'll request it again:
Show me where I've whined.

He who asserts, must prove.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Gamemaster1

[scotch]

gramlins are fail

[heikk-i]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1274561121' post='2308349']
More like IRON/DAWN killing a couple of isolated cancer cells while leaving the massive tumors in place because man that'd be a lot of effort!
[/quote]
Oh come on, if you have a couple very benign cancel cells at the wall of your aorta you would just risk cutting them straight away?
And complaining about the disease is understandable, who likes cancers?! But if you have the situation under control, your body is doing very okay, even growing, and the cancer cells are dying away at a steady rate, everything is okay

[Louisa]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']
My problem is with the whining over a half dozen threads and over 200 pages of posts. It's ridiculous.
[/quote]

"Whining" or not, there is no one to blame except yourself in this situation, since you apparently feel such a need to check all these "over a half dozen" threads. Just stop visiting them and you will once more find a soothing calm descend on your soul, life will be wonderful, the universe at peace. Try it, and I almost guarantee that in a day or so you will forget this discussion's terrible imposition on your very valuable peace of mind.

I feel better already

[Penkala]

[quote name='Golan 1st' date='22 May 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1274561151' post='2308351']
First, I don't ask for your permission to demand anything from Gramlins.
Second, they have caused us great damages by keeping us in the war.
Third, demanding a compensation from Gramlins for these damages is reasonable, unlike their pointless insistence of continuing the war when all other alliances from their side have accept the Easter Sunday Accords as a reasonable settlement of the Conflict.
Fourth, nobody can have any issue with us reaching any reasonable settlement with Gramlins.
[/quote]

I don't really care if you asked or not.

Demanding compensation when YOU started this conflict is [i]not[/i] reasonable. I personally find it in as bad of taste as Gremlins' requirements of you.

As for your fourth point, anybody who wants to can have an issue with you reaching a settlement with Gremlins. I have an issue with you demanding reps from them, for example. Now does anybody important have issues with it? That I don't know. But I find it unreasonable for you to ask for reps when you started this part of the conflict offensively. And in my opinion, using Gremlins to pay your reps for you (even if indirectly) would be a breach of terms.

To use your same childish argument, nobody has to ask your permission to have an issue with you taking reps from a war you've started.

[quote]Wow, that was an impressive way to dodge my request. You really proved yourself right by doing that. I'll request it again:
Show me where I've whined.

He who asserts, must prove. [/quote]

I assert that you have whined, you assert you have not. It is a plain fact that you have. Still, when I return this evening I will prove it to you. Then we shall be done with these 'Prove <well-known-fact> or it didn't happen!' games, I hope?

[quote]
"Whining" or not, there is no one to blame except yourself in this situation, since you apparently feel such a need to check all these "over a half dozen" threads. Just stop visiting them and you will once more find a soothing calm descend on your soul, life will be wonderful, the universe at peace. Try it, and I almost guarantee that in a day or so you will forget this discussion's terrible imposition on your very valuable peace of mind.[/quote]

I hardly read them. In fact, some I haven't touched. However, I constant see them bumped up with more and more IRON whining despite the fact that [i]you chose this path[/i]. You chose to begin the conflict with MK (and therefore Gremlins), you chose not to surrender unconditionally (when the risks of doing so are very, very, very, very small), you chose to take the slowest method possible of ending the conflict. And you still complain, almost daily, about the circumstances you find yourselves in. For like, what, at least 3 weeks now? It gets old.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Golan 1st' date='22 May 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1274561151' post='2308351']
Third, demanding a compensation from Gramlins for these damages is reasonable, unlike their pointless insistence of continuing the war when all other alliances from their side have accept the Easter Sunday Accords as a reasonable settlement of the Conflict.
[/quote]

I am not debating your sovereign right to seek reparations (nor should you debate our sovereign right to tell you to pound sand)

However, since you brought this up, I'll pose a question:

What obligates The Gremlins to be bound to terms not negotiated by us or any bloc to which we are a party?

My answer: Nothing.

The ESA has [b]nothing to do with The Gremlins[/b].

[Bob Janova]

[quote]you chose this path[/quote]
No, no they really didn't. The path they chose was to enter the war, expecting to fight it and then (on one side or the other) negotiate peace terms, surrender and work through what happens afterwards, like in every other war. Grämlins are the ones who have chosen the 'unconditional surrender or long war' path and it's entirely reasonable for IRON and others to complain about that (ridiculous) move while still accepting that it's what Grämlins are forcing them into and play a strategic game.

If IRON chose this path then white peace wouldn't still be out there for Grämlins to end it whenever they like (which I believe it still is).

[quote]I find it unreasonable for you to ask for reps when you started this part of the conflict offensively[/quote]
Please link me to IRON's DoW on Grämlins (or for that matter on a treaty partner of Grämlins), thanks in advance.

[Cortath]

I gotta hand it to Gremlins though. If you have to die a slow, agonizing death, a death that great alliances do not deserve, I suppose this way is preferable to any other, eh?

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Penkala' date='23 May 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1274562118' post='2308371']...
As for your fourth point, anybody who wants to can have an issue with you reaching a settlement with Gremlins. I have an issue with you demanding reps from them, for example. Now does anybody important have issues with it? That I don't know. But I find it unreasonable for you to ask for reps when you started this part of the conflict offensively. And in my opinion, using Gremlins to pay your reps for you (even if indirectly) would be a breach of terms.

To use your same childish argument, nobody has to ask your permission to have an issue with you taking reps from a war you've started.[/quote]By your logic, Gramlins are justified in anything they are doing because "we started the war". Regardless of how Gramlins entered the war, this is, of course, an unacceptable position.
We were ready to pay them reparations at the time, but them keeping us in the war for no acceptable reason is causing us additional damage. There is nothing unfair or unreasonable in demanding them to compensate us for these damages. I am not saying that we will necessarily do that, not because I am hiding anything, but because we really haven't decided about this, as Gramlins are refusing to any kind of negotiations.

The other alliances on Gramlins' side ended their part in this conflict with the ESA.
From that moment, they can have no say about the resolution of the conflict between us and Gramlins.
They cannot say that they leave us to settle this between ourselves, but only if Gramlins win.
As for Gramlins "paying reps for us", if this is an issue at all for the alliances we need to pay reps to, we can easily find solutions for that (for example, holding Gramlins' reps until we finish paying our reps to C&G and co.)

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='23 May 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1274564413' post='2308403']
I am not debating your sovereign right to seek reparations (nor should you debate our sovereign right to tell you to pound sand)

However, since you brought this up, I'll pose a question:

What obligates The Gremlins to be bound to terms not negotiated by us or any bloc to which we are a party?

My answer: Nothing.

The ESA has [b]nothing to do with The Gremlins[/b].[/quote]It is our view that from the announcement of the ESA, the only reason for the continuation of the war is your unacceptable demand for unconditional surrender and your continuous refusal to discuss any other settlement.
Since we cannot expect anything resembling reasonable decision making from Gramlins anymore, I guess that unless you just disappear before that, we will have to enforce a reasonable settlement on you.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Golan 1st

[silentkiller]

*sigh*

People are still replying to Penkala? He is like those annoying noises around you that you eventually learn to ignore and they don't bother you anymore.

Penkala for the sake of everyone, please stop posting. No one cares what strategy you think is best for this situation. Infact I rather like sitting in peace mode while your enemy kills himself, its a win-win situation for IRON.

Edited May 22, 2010 by silentkiller

[Baldr]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']
No, you don't, really. They haven't done any more damage to you since the war ended. So you have no claim to compensation. [/quote]

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_news.asp

There are reports of Gramlins nations nuking IRON and DAWN nations. Therefore your "they haven't done any more damage" claim is shown as a bald faced lie.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1274564413' post='2308403']
I am not debating your sovereign right to seek reparations (nor should you debate our sovereign right to tell you to pound sand)

However, since you brought this up, I'll pose a question:

What obligates The Gremlins to be bound to terms not negotiated by us or any bloc to which we are a party?

My answer: Nothing.

The ESA has [b]nothing to do with The Gremlins[/b].
[/quote]

ESA would only have had to do with those that were apart of that conflict. Anyone who came in to defend C&G by treaty etc. If you were not a part of that conflict then you should not be held to the peace treaties that resulted from it. I know your out to end the threat of IRON or whatever and if that is the reason you attacked them then you are correct you should have had nothing to do with ESA. I just though you entered the war claiming to be defending MK. Is that no longer the claim?

[Penkala]

[quote]If IRON chose this path then white peace wouldn't still be out there for Grämlins to end it whenever they like (which I believe it still is).
[/quote]

Indications seem to be that they are asking for reps. Or at least strongly considering it.

[quote]
Please link me to IRON's DoW on Grämlins (or for that matter on a treaty partner of Grämlins), thanks in advance.
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79442

Done.

I am not here to debate the base facts of this with you, Bob. Either you can be rational and realize that Gremlins DID have a reason to enter this war in defense of an ally, or you can continue to view the world through your blinders.

And yes, they expected to surrender. Surrender has been offered. I'm not thrilled with the way Gremlins is handling this either, but let's be serious, the terms aren't 'disbandment' or 'viceroy'. They're probably white peace or very light reps. And if Gremlins didn't like the terms they could just go back to war. It's really that simple.

[quote]Grämlins are the ones who have chosen the 'unconditional surrender or long war' path and it's entirely reasonable for IRON and others to complain about that (ridiculous) move while still accepting that it's what Grämlins are forcing them into and play a strategic game.
[/quote]

It's not rational to complain about how long it's taking when your very strategy is to wait them out, Bob. When your strategy is to wait a long time you should quit complaining that it's taking... wait for it... a long time.

[quote]I gotta hand it to Gremlins though. If you have to die a slow, agonizing death, a death that great alliances do not deserve, I suppose this way is preferable to any other, eh?[/quote]

Pretty much this...

[quote]By your logic, Gramlins are justified in anything they are doing because "we started the war". [/quote]

Please explain how my logic supports this.

[quote]As for Gramlins "paying reps for us", if this is an issue at all for the alliances we need to pay reps to, we can easily find solutions for that (for example, holding Gramlins' reps until we finish paying our reps to C&G and co.)[/quote]

Fair enough. Good point. Still don't agree with you taking ANY reps in a war that didn't need to start, yet you started anyways. Even if Gramlins [i]are[/i] jerks about it, it's one of those risks you accept when you start offensive wars in support of other offensive wars (both of which were aimed at eliminating freedoms other alliances enjoyed).

[quote]Since we cannot expect anything resembling reasonable decision making from Gramlins anymore, I guess that unless you just disappear before that, we will have to enforce a reasonable settlement on you.[/quote]

Or you could walk away with white peace. I saw a lot of talk about how your side was going to end the tit-for-tat reparations and stop asking for them just to get back at Karma members. Now that we see you about to come out on top of your first war since Karma, we see that you've already abandoned that mantra and [i]do[/i] want your tasty, tasty reps. How hypocritical of you.

[quote]Penkala for the sake of everyone, please stop posting. No one cares what strategy you think is best for this situation. Infact I rather like sitting in peace mode while your enemy kills himself, its a win-win situation for IRON.[/quote]

It is a pretty good strategy, yes. Which is why it confuses me that they're complaining about it constantly.

[quote]
There are reports of Gramlins nations nuking IRON and DAWN nations. Therefore your "they haven't done any more damage" claim is shown as a bald faced lie.[/quote]

I see 5 nukes eaten by IRON. 3 of which were 1-5k NS nations. 2 of which were 30kNSers with small infra counts (I believe.)

Oh boy, you must be taking LOADS of damage, IRON!

The only 'bald faces lie' is yours. IRON is not taking much damage.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Clash]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1274548921' post='2308121']
Seems like you didn't really read much.


I am pretty sure The Gremlins will not pay reps per our codex of war.
[/quote]
So you demand reps but don't pay them?
Hypocrisy is always fun to point out.

You're losing y'know. Whatever excuses you use, this is completely true.

[Clash]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1274570394' post='2308513']
Indications seem to be that they are asking for reps. Or at least strongly considering it.



http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79442

Done.[/quote]
I believe that it's been pointed out before that Gremlins had no treaties with CnG prior to this war.
According to their wiki, they only have relations with MHA:
http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gramlins

Edit: Oh and until IRON actually offers anything other than white peace, that's what stands.
Pretending gains no points.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Clash

[Penkala]

[quote name='Clash' date='22 May 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1274571960' post='2308541']
So you demand reps but don't pay them?
Hypocrisy is always fun to point out.

You're losing y'know. Whatever excuses you use, this is completely true.
[/quote]

Nobody's winning in this one, I can assure you.

Gremlins is dying, and even the dying corpse is strong enough to keep IRON cowering in peace mode.

This whole thing is just so pathetic.

[quote]I believe that it's been pointed out before that Gremlins had no treaties with CnG prior to this war.
According to their wiki, they only have relations with MHA:
http://cybernations....ki/The_Gramlins
[/quote]

I believe it's been pointed out that Gremlins is allied to MK, just not on paper. Most people accept that. The only people don't are IRON sympathizers who want to make this out to be an offensive war on Gremlins' part, and their agenda is clear.

[Fernando12]

Maybe those remaining in GRE are close just like Aircastle. Maybe thats why they don't leave this nonsense?

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1274559956' post='2308326']
My problem is with the whining over a half dozen threads and over 200 pages of posts. It's ridiculous. If you're going to take a 'wait them out' approach, quit complaining about how long it's taking. If it's taking too long, then gather some outsiders and attack them. If neither of these are acceptable, surrender. It's really that simple. But whining when YOU took the strategy of continuing the war for months is annoying.

And yes, you are whining. And you are complaining.



No, that's not true. What I've stated (several times!) is that [b][u]if you're going to choose to wait Gremlins out, quit complaining about how long it is taking and how long Gremlins is keeping you at war.[/u][/b]

I also pointed out their other options to end this more quickly.

Please don't twist my words because you can't defeat my argument.



No, you don't, really. They haven't done any more damage to you since the war ended. So you have no claim to compensation. Hell they aren't even asking it of you, and you caused this war.

Go ahead and try and get reps from Gremlins, though. I doubt they'll accept them, and then YOU'LL be the one holding THEM in perpetual war. Plus, SG *may* have a problem with you taking reps from this war, especially if you'll use them to pay what you owe to SG (yes, what YOU owe, out-of-pocket. Not what Gremlins has to pay for you). Not saying they will have a problem with it, but they might.

And frankly, asking for punitive damages from Gremlins is really pushing your luck.



You know you're right when your detractors have to twist your words. I'll say it slow for you Woody: You... Can... Use... This... Strategy... Just... Don't... Whine... About... It... Taking... So... Long... When... You... Have... Half... A... Dozen... Ways... To... Speed... It... Up...

Now debate my statement or don't bother responding. Redefining my position on this issue is not a debate tactic, Woody. Either confront the statement or don't.



Once again, pushing it. If I were SG I wouldn't allow IRON/DAWN to demand reps, especially when they're taking virtually no damage.
[/quote]
You do realize that neither IRON or DAWN started these threads about Gramlins?

The only time I've seen IRON/DAWN members post is when their honor or integrity is challenged by people like you who spew petty insults. And most of them are intended to provoke them into making a suicidal charge at Gramlins upper tiers.

They haven't asked for help.

I didn't know thatdefending yourself = whining