Karma for Sparta

[cookavich]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='03 March 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1267639221' post='2212787']
Uh, not really. Try again. The "do something about it" is only ever a good idea when "doing something about it" means "something effective gets done". Any war against Sparta right now wouldn't hurt Sparta very much because of all of their allies. If the goal was to hurt Sparta, "doing something about it", i.e. military action, would fail to accomplish that goal and actually only make the goal further out of reach.

It's called strategy.
[/quote]And it's also called most everyone is in a crapload of wars.

[commander thrawn]

[quote]Your comment was in reference to people saying that Sparta maneuvers its way out of losing wars by cutting ties to the losing side and hopping on the winning side. Your whole post is basically saying, "We can maneuver our way out of any losing war. Go Sparta!"

It's just funny to see you backtrack now. [/quote]
I am not backtracking, Sparta could, believe it or not, wisely pick allies and not have to end up on the losing side because of commitments. So many people on the losing side of this war are pissed cause they had to defend TOP/IRON in their offensive war. I would be pretty pissed if my allies didn't consult me or anything before doing something like that.


[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='03 March 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1267639221' post='2212787']
Uh, not really. Try again. The "do something about it" is only ever a good idea when "doing something about it" means "something effective gets done". Any war against Sparta right now wouldn't hurt Sparta very much because of all of their allies. If the goal was to hurt Sparta, "doing something about it", i.e. military action, would fail to accomplish that goal and actually only make the goal further out of reach.

It's called strategy.
[/quote]

So you are saying Sparta has good allies that support them and that is a good strategy. Sounds like good "maneuvering" to me.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='03 March 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1267652778' post='2212965']
I am not backtracking, Sparta could, believe it or not, wisely pick allies and not have to end up on the losing side because of commitments. So many people on the losing side of this war are pissed cause they had to defend TOP/IRON in their offensive war. I would be pretty pissed if my allies didn't consult me or anything before doing something like that.




So you are saying Sparta has good allies that support them and that is a good strategy. Sounds like good "maneuvering" to me.
[/quote]
I'll let your earlier post speak for itself.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='03 March 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1267657915' post='2213062']
I'll let your earlier post speak for itself.
[/quote]


So... Sparta must be underhanded for picking good allies? I am confused about this, who TOP/IRON/etc did they screw over?

[Lennox]

Sparta will be served up on a silver platter sooner or later. Also, wtf is that requesting 25,000 tech?

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Lennox' date='03 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1267667919' post='2213190']
Sparta will be served up on a silver platter sooner or later. Also, wtf is that requesting 25,000 tech?
[/quote]
Did you expect anything better from Sparta?

[Fireandthepassion]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='28 February 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1267394718' post='2208860']
Perhaps to you, but I've seen them shutout others (no names) who were allies. And I've seen them act high and mighty simply because of their alliance's position versus others.

Point is, no one is perfect but I don't see how LM/TOP can claim the high road over Sparta in terms of whose the better ally without either exposing their flaws. LM, you are speaking with TOP in the back of your mind I'd assume, right?

Either way, far too many large alliances treat smaller alliances as their [b]means towards tech and a future merger[/b] unless it's their own protectorate. Even though sometimes those small alliances do grow up and they wonder why some have a chip on their shoulders...
[/quote]

Tech yes, but those deals are beneficial for both parties. Just ask the people selling that tech and the people buying. Mergers? For Sparta maybe. Polaris, Paradoxia, and Pacifica are 3 alliances that I can think of off the top of my head that hasn't benefited from a merger in recent history, if ever.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Fireandthepassion

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Fireandthepassion' date='03 March 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1267670591' post='2213247']
Tech yes, but those deals are beneficial for both parties. Just ask the people selling that tech and the people buying. Mergers? For Sparta maybe. Polaris, Paradoxia, and Pacifica are 3 alliances that I can think of off the top of my head that hasn't benefited from a merger in recent history, if ever.
[/quote]

You completely missed why I brought it up.

Large alliances can disguise tech deals as mutually beneficial, but if you're only in it for the economic aspect and not to be a good friend then it's pointless in trying to disguise it. Many a times it is to gain tech, not friends that anyone does large scale tech deals, heck, once the tech goes away those alliances are discarded.

So in essence, Polaris, Paradoxi and Pacifica have all used alliances to such ends.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='03 March 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1267639221' post='2212787']
Uh, not really. Try again. The "do something about it" is only ever a good idea when "doing something about it" means "something effective gets done". Any war against Sparta right now wouldn't hurt Sparta very much because of all of their allies. If the goal was to hurt Sparta, "doing something about it", i.e. military action, would fail to accomplish that goal and actually only make the goal further out of reach.

It's called strategy.
[/quote]
Vox was at a disadvantage in every category. We still fought, and won.

You're all cowards who can't back up words.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='03 March 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1267675272' post='2213311']
Vox was at a disadvantage in every category. We still fought, and won.

You're all cowards who can't back up words.
[/quote]
We didn't win at Vox. We had other people win for us. Vox did not cause NPO's downfall. It was a bit of an annoyance for a while.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='02 March 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267557835' post='2211541']
I sure hope not, I would be very disappointed lol

In all seriousness though, why should he have to be nice? This discussion was created strictly with the purpose of saying derogatory things about Sparta, and served for many pages as a place where all those who hate Sparta could gather and profess their undieing desire to see them burn/insult them/etc....and therefore they should respond by being nice? Not in my book, Mr. Olaf seems to have come in here and shoved a lot of peoples feet down their own throats in a rather amusing fashion, so +1 in my book.

Also, down with Sparta.
[/quote]
I'm guessing this discussion was created primarily not for others to bash Sparta, but for Sparta to make themselves look bad. They're giving Alterego exactly what he wants by responding the way they have. Given the nature of this thread, I sure can't blame them for not being nice, but I certainly question the wisdom of it.

-Bama

[Style #386]

Never, they are far too sneaky to get what they deserve.

[Voytek]

I think it's a question more of "will anyone ever care enough about them to go to the effort of organising a war against them" more than "will they ever leave themselves exposed". I'm leaning towards No, personally.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='04 March 2010 - 04:26 AM' timestamp='1267676977' post='2213344']
We didn't win at Vox. We had other people win for us. Vox did not cause NPO's downfall. It was a bit of an annoyance for a while.
[/quote]
We?

We...?

Please.

You joined Vox in the early days, left after what, a day or two, openly posted a thread bashing us, and then joined the other side and trolled us. You have no right to associate yourself as Vox, because you were not true Vox. You didn't wage a 10 month propaganda and military campaign against the Hegemony, you ran. Don't ever use "we" or "us" when speaking of Vox ever again.

Now, NPOers have openly admitted that Vox was a legitimate threat, and did an awful lot of damage, and even won the war, depending on who you ask. You claim the war was won for us, but a case could be made that we won the war for them.

Anyway, my point stands, you're all cowards who can't back up what you say.

Acta non verba.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='04 March 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1267689398' post='2213548']
We?

We...?

Please.

You joined Vox in the early days, left after what, a day or two, openly posted a thread bashing us, and then joined the other side and trolled us. You have no right to associate yourself as Vox, because you were not true Vox. You didn't wage a 10 month propaganda and military campaign against the Hegemony, you ran. Don't ever use "we" or "us" when speaking of Vox ever again. [/quote]
I'm not sure you have the right guy. I stayed in Vox for the duration of the main part of WotC (two to three weeks of nuclear war, which followed by about two to three months of peace mode as an independent nation), never posted a thread bashing you (it was bashing BnT and Old Guard for what I saw as a violation of my peace terms), didn't join any other side (joined the failed Myrmidons, got ZI'd Valhalla shortly after, then joined Argent, which fought on the Karma side (after I rebuilt and so was able to do more damage than if I had stayed in Vox for 10 months doing nothing)), and never trolled Vox.

So next time you get so offensive, try to figure out if you have the right guy first.

[quote]Now, NPOers have openly admitted that Vox was a legitimate threat, and did an awful lot of damage, and even won the war, depending on who you ask. You claim the war was won for us, but a case could be made that we won the war for them.[/quote]
Quotes?

[quote]Anyway, my point stands, you're all cowards who can't back up what you say.

Acta non verba.[/quote]
Sorry, people aren't idiots. We're not going to take the bait and try to do something without an effective plan. Speaking generally, if the good guy can't defeat the bad guy for another six months, the smart decision is to wait. If you don't wait, then you're just going to lose and then it will be even LONGER until you can defeat the bad guy.

Your baiting in order to get people to attack before they're ready if very amusing though.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Style #386' date='04 March 2010 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1267686374' post='2213510']
Never, they are far too sneaky to get what they deserve.
[/quote]

wait i knoe u...

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='04 March 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1267691312' post='2213558']
I'm not sure you have the right guy. I stayed in Vox for the duration of the main part of WotC (two to three weeks of nuclear war, which followed by about two to three months of peace mode as an independent nation), never posted a thread bashing you (it was bashing BnT and Old Guard for what I saw as a violation of my peace terms), didn't join any other side (joined the failed Myrmidons, got ZI'd Valhalla shortly after, then joined Argent, which fought on the Karma side (after I rebuilt and so was able to do more damage than if I had stayed in Vox for 10 months doing nothing)), and never trolled Vox.

So next time you get so offensive, try to figure out if you have the right guy first.
[/quote]
I'll apologize for that one. I just simply recall a guy with AA doing that. I'll have to go back and check and see who it was sometime. Either way, you were a member for two weeks you said? Credit enough to me, then. Two weeks as a member doesn't qualify you as someone to say "We in Vox didn't win," because you weren't around to even know what happened. We had around 200 members, some loyal to the cause, most not. The exodus of nations at the point when you and most others gave up nearly killed Vox, but luckily we had people such as myself, Doitzel, Schattenmann, etc, who remained loyal to the cause after it became obvious the movement wasn't going to win.

Finally, you claim Vox did "nothing" for those 10 months, which is ridiculous. Each of us put in a good thousand posts or so for the cause and many, many hours, and overcame the odds. It was hardly nothing. So, please don't use "we" when talking about Vox if you can't even respect the achievements that we accomplished far after the two week mark.

Now, I'm not one to normally bash those who resigned from Vox, as it was a tough movement, and I do respect your contribution, no matter how small it was. You're just really disrespecting those who truly fought and bled for the cause.

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='04 March 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1267691312' post='2213558']
Quotes?
[/quote]
Oh, you caught me! I made it all up! Since I've never saved any and remembered which thread they were in, they don't exist.

A classic.

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='04 March 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1267691312' post='2213558']
Sorry, people aren't idiots. We're not going to take the bait and try to do something without an effective plan. Speaking generally, if the good guy can't defeat the bad guy for another six months, the smart decision is to wait. If you don't wait, then you're just going to lose and then it will be even LONGER until you can defeat the bad guy.

Your baiting in order to get people to attack before they're ready if very amusing though.
[/quote]
It hardly makes a difference to me whether you attack now, or attack later, and I'm not really trying to bait anyone, I'm a third party here. I just think it's ridiculous to run around calling on others to destroy an alliance that has...done what, exactly? Alright, I'll pretend they are the Spartan menace for a second here. I just think it's ridiculous you're going around calling for the demise of the Spartan menace when you aren't even willing to fight them yourself. You're basically just openly admitting your plan is to hide in the political backrooms signing as many treaties as possible so that you can fight them when you know you have an advantage. Yeah, great tactic. Sparta is going to beat you at that game, like they've done before. Why do you think this thread even exists? Because they outmanuevered your side time and time again and have come out on top? Well, hey, good luck. I remember how well that openly Anti-MK coalition did. Gathered up a real "secret coalition," waiting for the right time to strike the new "hegemony," and then they finally made their move and were soundly defeated. Have fun - there's a reason you can't do anything besides cry about them and hide hoping others will answer the call, it's because you're all afraid. If Sparta was as bad as you guys pretend, it'd be easy to destroy them by politically isolating them, and then striking. What would I do in your situation if I hated the Spartan menace? I'd declare war and do anything I personally could to weaken their power base, but that's the difference between me and the anti-Sparta crowd, I guess, as I will back up my words and will fight, not call for their death while not fighting them myself.

I want someone to convince me Sparta is so evil. As it stands now, I'd like to become an ally of Sparta just so I can help them wreck these haters when they finally think they have enough treaties to strike.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='04 March 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1267699431' post='2213588']
I'll apologize for that one. I just simply recall a guy with AA doing that. I'll have to go back and check and see who it was sometime. Either way, you were a member for two weeks you said? Credit enough to me, then. Two weeks as a member doesn't qualify you as someone to say "We in Vox didn't win," because you weren't around to even know what happened. We had around 200 members, some loyal to the cause, most not. The exodus of nations at the point when you and most others gave up nearly killed Vox, but luckily we had people such as myself, Doitzel, Schattenmann, etc, who remained loyal to the cause after it became obvious the movement wasn't going to win.

Finally, you claim Vox did "nothing" for those 10 months, which is ridiculous. Each of us put in a good thousand posts or so for the cause and many, many hours, and overcame the odds. It was hardly nothing. So, please don't use "we" when talking about Vox if you can't even respect the achievements that we accomplished far after the two week mark.

Now, I'm not one to normally bash those who resigned from Vox, as it was a tough movement, and I do respect your contribution, no matter how small it was. You're just really disrespecting those who truly fought and bled for the cause.


Oh, you caught me! I made it all up! Since I've never saved any and remembered which thread they were in, they don't exist.

A classic.


It hardly makes a difference to me whether you attack now, or attack later, and I'm not really trying to bait anyone, I'm a third party here. I just think it's ridiculous to run around calling on others to destroy an alliance that has...done what, exactly? Alright, I'll pretend they are the Spartan menace for a second here. I just think it's ridiculous you're going around calling for the demise of the Spartan menace when you aren't even willing to fight them yourself. You're basically just openly admitting your plan is to hide in the political backrooms signing as many treaties as possible so that you can fight them when you know you have an advantage. Yeah, great tactic. Sparta is going to beat you at that game, like they've done before. Why do you think this thread even exists? Because they outmanuevered your side time and time again and have come out on top? Well, hey, good luck. I remember how well that openly Anti-MK coalition did. Gathered up a real "secret coalition," waiting for the right time to strike the new "hegemony," and then they finally made their move and were soundly defeated. Have fun - there's a reason you can't do anything besides cry about them and hide hoping others will answer the call, it's because you're all afraid. If Sparta was as bad as you guys pretend, it'd be easy to destroy them by politically isolating them, and then striking. What would I do in your situation if I hated the Spartan menace? I'd declare war and do anything I personally could to weaken their power base, but that's the difference between me and the anti-Sparta crowd, I guess, as I will back up my words and will fight, not call for their death while not fighting them myself.

I want someone to convince me Sparta is so evil. As it stands now, I'd like to become an ally of Sparta just so I can help them wreck these haters when they finally think they have enough treaties to strike.
[/quote]
Not everyone is taking the path of the warmonger with this.
I still believe Sparta has not yet crossed the point of no return.
The only misgiving I have with Sparta is they demand too much reps.
And I hope that they change this policy when they see that it is unpopular.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='04 March 2010 - 07:53 AM' timestamp='1267689398' post='2213548']
Anyway, my point stands, you're all cowards who can't back up what you say.

Acta non verba.
[/quote]
If you dont like people speaking their mind why dont you do something about it.

Say it, dont spray it.

[Hiro Nakara]

Ahh, so I look forward to your declaration on sparta then, chop chop. Works both ways.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='04 March 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1267726109' post='2213804']
Ahh, so I look forward to your declaration on sparta then, chop chop. Works both ways.
[/quote]
Unlike him I believe people can have a negative opinion about an alliance without needing to DoW them ASAP. I would have to DoW about 30 alliances if I thought like him.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Alterego' date='28 February 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1267369285' post='2208283']
If you are sick of me whining on the forum "why don't you do something about it instead of whining on the forums?"
[/quote]

Ahhh right sorry my bad, I thought this guy was having an opinion on you and you told him the exact same as above, "do something about it"

[Smooth]

I voted "I like Sparta."

[Alterego]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='04 March 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1267728330' post='2213838']
Ahhh right sorry my bad, I thought this guy was having an opinion on you and you told him the exact same as above, "do something about it"
[/quote]
You are correct, I used his own argument against him. I said to myself Alt (I dont like to be formal when talking to myself) here is a guy who is giving you advice on how to conduct myself. The same guy is ignoring his own rule and not doing something about(attacking)me. So I thought, I know (it was a bit of a eureka moment) i'll use his own comment to show him he is a hypocrite and if he has no intention of following his own mantra why would anyone else?

So you see I wasnt in fact using his argument in a genuine manner. I was being sarcastic in the use of his mantra. Is sarcasm the right word here Alt? I dont know Alt. My inner voice is telling me that you knew this already, that you were just playing dumb. My outer voice is louder and its saying something else.

Regards
Alterego
Supreme Dictator
No 1 Bog Land
Big road 4
Bongo Bongo
Bog Land

Edited March 4, 2010 by Alterego

[Hiro Nakara]

Ahh like others in this thread, they must have misstaken your constant moaning and bawwing in this thread/other threads showing your hatred for Sparta, You can see how people would assume you wanted to do them harm, but lacked the testicular fortitude to do anything about it, other than be obsessed and post such hatred frequently. My bad for confusing your sarcasm for actual intent or lack of it.

Regards,

Hiro
Supreme overlord of everything
Number 1 Hero
Killer of whales
Punisher of kittens
Beholder of the BS meter.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Hiro Nakara