That's Enough of That

[Delta1212]

[quote name='obscurus' date='17 February 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1266437194' post='2187855']
Yes, D1212, and I exert it to my limit reading some posts here
[/quote]
Then I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was overtaxed to the point where you missed that you were also providing an accurate description of your own behavior and that of the other members of your alliance during this situation. Even if the screenshot was proved fake, that does not make GLOF right. It just makes you both wrong. Your actions were inexusable in this situation even if the story is exactly as you describe it which is rarely ever the case in these situations.

You cannot justify breaking an MDP level treaty by attacking the alliance you hold it with because it seems likely they conspired against one of your members without attempting any level of diplomacy whatsoever.

Declaring war with no attempt at diplomacy isn't popular. We just had a major kerfluffle about the issue two months ago. When it is a treaty partner, it's essentially obligatory.

Breaking treaties is beyond unpopular. Breaking an MDP-level treaty to declare war on the alliance in question is pretty much one of the worst things you can do.

Deriding any criticism of the above actions as being delusional only makes it seem like you think those are ok. Do you think breaking treaties is ok or do you deny that you ignored a treaty to attack the 57th? Do you believe that dropping and attacking allies without even contacting them is ok or do you deny that you did this?

[Coloradia]

Obscurus, perhaps you should make that the motto of GLoF? It appears it is the only thing you guys have left.

Also, I cannot decide whether you are just an idiot, or oblivious. My posts were in mockery of one of your own members who made the original statement that those who disagreed wtih GLoF in this matter were dishonourable, lying, scum.

Try again.

[OOC]As for my "trollish behavior" as you call it, well, when dealing with idiots I tend to have a rather abrasive and combative personality. As a very intelligent person I truly am offended by stupidity and it gets on my nerves very easily.[/OOC]

@Xiao - It's common sense. Unless you prefer the old Hegemony might makes right setup?

Edited February 17, 2010 by The Great One

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1266437983' post='2187873']

@Xiao - It's common sense. Unless you prefer the old Hegemony might makes right setup?
[/quote]

So then acting the fool is perfectly reasonable because it's universally agreed upon? Come, now.

Regardless of the actions that prompted this war, you're stating there was no CB for it. GLOF clearly disagrees, and I do agree with them - they had, to them, a valid reasoning to go to war.

Did they go about it the right way? No. But arguing with them as if there's some grand regulatory power to back you is asinine at best, suicidal at worst. You'd do best to wash your hands of the whole affair and simply not do business with those you don't like. [i]That[/i] would be common sense.

[obscurus]

[quote][OOC]As for my "trollish behavior" as you call it, well, when dealing with idiots I tend to have a rather abrasive and combative personality. As a very intelligent person I truly am offended by stupidity and it gets on my nerves very easily.[/OOC][/quote]

As I have said, Megalomania.
Instead of writing here, better look for a shrink.
Might do u better good in the long run.

Oh yes: you [s]are[/s] behave like a troll and call names to others.
But you are right and the others are wrong. Go figure.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='obscurus' date='17 February 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1266438537' post='2187888']
As I have said, Megalomania.
Instead of writing here, better look for a shrink.
Might do u better good in the long run.

Oh yes: you [s]are[/s] behave like a troll and call names to others.
But you are right and the others are wrong. Go figure.
[/quote]
Whereas you calling people names and stating that they are wrong and you are right is an entirely different situation...?

[joracy]

Honestly not a giant fan of the 57th after the cluster$%&@ that was their war with BC, but congratulations on doing an even worse job GLOF! Your ability to make the 57th look good is pretty amazing.

[Centurius]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1266430431' post='2187717']
Schatt, please stop. All you are is a fancy Charles the Great. You are here out of your hatred, dislike, grudge, whatever it may be against the 57th or Ven. You really bring nothing to the matter other than proving yourself to be a has-been who still yearns for the spotlight.

Edit: Missed the o in pr[b]o[/b]ving
[/quote]

You're one to talk.


[quote name='Lennox' date='17 February 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1266434625' post='2187780']
To me, this signifies that the GLOF was 100% completely wrong in their initial accusations and are now just trying to save face. Had you really felt justified, you would have pounded 57th until you grew bored. You have defeated yourselves, well done.
[/quote]

You know this might be a new word in your vocabulary but some people have [b]mercy[/b]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1266435627' post='2187813']
[b]There is no doubt that the accusations are absolutely false and GLoF is completely in the wrong. People I respect agree with me on this matter and the only people who debate the fact that the CB is crap are those who are absolute fools and I could care less about them.[/b]

It was directed at Schatt, that was pretty clear I thought. As to my argument being flawed, please, show one flaw in it. I beg you to show one flaw. Dozens have been shown in your argument, yet you refuse to acknowledge them in the least. I am a master of logic! All of my conclusions have come from perfectly well thought out logic. Your "ZOMFG GLoF GLoF HAIL TEH MIGHTY GLoF KEEL 57TH LYAZ SCUM DIE" mind seems incapable of comprehending logic behind that of the lies and stubbornness that GLoF has exemplified in this series of events. You have not made a single post that contributed anything to this matter beyond becoming a laughingstock, much as your alliance is at this moment.

I am not wrong in the least, I am very correct as a matter of fact. You should trust me, but then again, I'm not sure I would want someone like you to listen to me, judging by your actions thus far I doubt you can add 1+1, because the evidence against what you continue to profess is quite near to as simple as that little mathematical equation.
[/quote]

They are correct because they agree with me and those others are wrong because they disagree, right? I will not respond to the rest of your post because I do not get aroused by calling others stupid.

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1266436327' post='2187834']
But it was soooo fun to throw what he thought was a great stroke of genius, turn it 180 and throw it back in his face!


Since when has it been proven to be fake? Oh never, thats right. As for fake, well, there have only been 3-4, maybe 5? I've lost track, different people showing how the distortion could be there without it being faked.

I have yet to see a single reliable, honest, trustworthy person who is completely sure the IP is real. Every person who has claimed so has been from GLoF, you know, the alliance that backstabs allies with no notice at all? Seems the only people who are completely sure it is a fake are highly unreliable liars, scum, and backstabbers.

Two can play this game and every statement you make can be flipped 180 and thrown back at you.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. [b]And the absolute failure of GLoF to convince anyone besides themselves that the IP is "faked"[/b] goes to show just how wrong GLoF is.
[/quote]

Speak for yourself.

[agafaba]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266435164' post='2187800']
Perhaps in the fact that it has been proven to a high likelyhood that the IP is real? Yet GLoF and its few supporters here continue to refer to it as absolute fact that it was faked?
[/quote]
But it hasnt, 57th simply said it was...
Verifying with a neutral source would go a lot further to claim as such then the word of the accused.

[Lennox]

[quote name='Charles the Great' date='17 February 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1266434848' post='2187789']
we did grow bored..........as far as I know only King David put up a good fight.
[/quote]


[quote name='Solarius4' date='17 February 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1266435809' post='2187817']
we got bored, declared peace, now we're done...

fin...
[/quote]

You guys don't last very long

[Niedalry]

This whole situation never should have been allowed to happen in the first place.

Regardless its good to see an end to the mess and a return to a state of serenity.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1266436327' post='2187834']
But it was soooo fun to throw what he thought was a great stroke of genius, turn it 180 and throw it back in his face!


Since when has it been proven to be fake? Oh never, thats right. As for fake, well, there have only been 3-4, maybe 5? I've lost track, different people showing how the distortion could be there without it being faked.

I have yet to see a single reliable, honest, trustworthy person who is completely sure the IP is real. Every person who has claimed so has been from GLoF, you know, the alliance that backstabs allies with no notice at all? Seems the only people who are completely sure it is a fake are highly unreliable liars, scum, and backstabbers.

Two can play this game and every statement you make can be flipped 180 and thrown back at you.

[b]The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. And the absolute failure of GLoF to convince anyone besides themselves that the IP is "faked" goes to show just how wrong GLoF is.[/b]
[/quote]
Defendant? Accuser? Mercy me! I did't realize we were in a court!

Because we're not. Welcome to Planet Bob, we do things differently here.


[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1266437983' post='2187873']
Obscurus, perhaps you should make that the motto of GLoF? It appears it is the only thing you guys have left.

Also, I cannot decide whether you are just an idiot, or oblivious. My posts were in mockery of one of your own members who made the original statement that those who disagreed wtih GLoF in this matter were dishonourable, lying, scum.

Try again.

[OOC]As for my "trollish behavior" as you call it, well, when dealing with idiots I tend to have a rather abrasive and combative personality. As a very intelligent person I truly am offended by stupidity and it gets on my nerves very easily.[/OOC]

@Xiao - It's common sense. Unless you prefer the old Hegemony might makes right setup?
[/quote]

Shens. It is clearly incorrect to the entire planet--and I reject outright--the mere suggestion that you are more intelligent than anything. Your inability to formulate any sort of argument other than your one-trick caps lock and bad spelling impersonations is absolute proof of the base nature of your alleged intellect.

[Dementual]

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='16 February 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1266377191' post='2186885']
You broke an MDoAP and hit your former ally when there was no pressing reason to do so; there was no immediate danger to your alliance even if you believed that this was a deliberate attempt by 57th/Veneke to undermine the Lodge. That is what I and many others will remember GLOF. I hope it was worth it.
[/quote]
This ultimately explains my feelings on the matter.

[Vijaya]

Good to see this.

o/ GLoF and Penedono!

[Alaric]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='17 February 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1266416642' post='2187528']
Unfortunately for you I do not think that this done with at all. You may think you've got away with a nice hit and run with a clean break here but I can assure you that [u]memories are long and vengeance is oh so sweet[/u], so if you don't want to be paying for this down the line maybe you should make a bit more effort to clean up your self-made mess.

As for #glof, I have been in and out for a couple of months or so and there are a few fine fellows in there; respectable guys who gave a good impression and who I never thought would be a part of an alliance [u]that would pull such a dickish move[/u]. But here we are. The govt of GLoF pulled the stunt and treated us all to a more in-depth view of how the alliance operates, and it wasn't pretty.
[/quote]

How's [b]my[/b] memory? You're the guy that went nuke-rogue on Nickyh from 1TF!

So... yeah - I certainly question your scruples. Care to comment on [b]mine[/b]?

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Alaric' date='17 February 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1266442184' post='2187985']
How's [b]my[/b] memory? You're the guy that went nuke-rogue on Nickyh from 1TF!

So... yeah - I certainly question your scruples. Care to comment on [b]mine[/b]?
[/quote]
You broke a treaty to declare war on an ally with no attempt at communication.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='17 February 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1266442522' post='2187996']
You broke a treaty to declare war on an ally with no attempt at communication.
[/quote]
57th broke the treaty when they attacked GLoF's membership.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='17 February 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1266442880' post='2188005']
57th broke the treaty when they attacked GLoF's membership.
[/quote]
57th provided GLOF with a screenshot. I have not been provided with actual evidence that the screenshot is fake. Assuming it is, that still is not attacking their membership. It's not [I]good[/I] but it's not a war, and it did not force any actions on GLOF. I understand that you hate Veneke but you should pick your battles.

[Theoroshia]

[quote]57th broke the treaty when they attacked GLoF's membership.[/quote]
I must have missed that part, or else you got things backwards. Care to illuminate me, oh wise one?

[jer]

[quote name='Alaric' date='17 February 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1266442184' post='2187985']
How's [b]my[/b] memory? You're the guy that went nuke-rogue on Nickyh from 1TF!

So... yeah - I certainly question your scruples. Care to comment on [b]mine[/b]?
[/quote]
You are really comparing one nation going rogue on a long-term adversary for one week to an entire alliance cancelling a high-level treaty with an ally and declaring war on them without bothering to even talk to them? How amusing. But hey, if you want to have that particular pissing contest, then sure: I paid the appropriate reparations and my issue was truly resolved and finished with to everyone's satisfaction. How about yours?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='17 February 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1266443262' post='2188020']
57th provided GLOF with a screenshot. I have not been provided with actual evidence that the screenshot is fake. Assuming it is, that still is not attacking their membership. It's not [I]good[/I] but it's not a war, and it did not force any actions on GLOF. I understand that you hate Veneke but you should pick your battles.
[/quote]
You must have missed the last three days. If the shots given to GLoF are falsified, they're an act of subterfuge, of war (as GLoF noted in theie DoW). GLoF believes them to be fakes without regard to the vailidity of the contested Veneke speech. While it may be true that as an alliance GLoF can conduct its membership as it sees fit, a deliberate scheme of this type undermines that ability, and, yes, does force GLoF's hand; in this case to expel the member (with whom 57th has a vendetta along with the rest of the 57th diaspora in GLoF).

All you hee-hawing cronies think we're using some OOC legal system. We're not. Wrong or right, 57th is under attack in retaltion to deliberate acts of subterfuge. GLoF was wrong, if within their rights, to attack without talking. But the issue is easily solved. Both GLoF and Veneke have said they're not IT masterminds. Ok, get someone that is, mask him at both forums to compare the IPs, biggity-bam it's a done deal or the war is still on depending on the result.

Instead, 57th has relied, once again, on simply taking their butt-whipping without addressing the core issue.

I understand you're allied to Veneke, but thatdoesn't mean you turn off your brain, though in the past year I've seen you do it over and over so I don't know why I ever had an opinion that you usedto use it. I guess I wasn't paying attention.

[jerry wagner]

[quote name='Alaric' date='17 February 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1266442184' post='2187985']
How's [b]my[/b] memory? You're the guy that went nuke-rogue on Nickyh from 1TF!

So... yeah - I certainly question your scruples. Care to comment on [b]mine[/b]?
[/quote]

You question the scruples of another when yours are on trial, a little deflection much? Perhaps you should focus on your issues and try to properly address them.

[Delta1212]

Because insults strengthen your position and make you sound better.

Edit: That was directed at Schattenman

Edited February 17, 2010 by Delta1212

[Jyrinx]

[quote name='Walking_Dead' date='17 February 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1266422771' post='2187592']
Funny thing, it seems that we're supposed to think every single person on Bob has sided against GLOF. In reality, most people don't care one way or the other. There is a small core of people that have come running to the defense of the 57th, and they have been screaming about peace since the first shot was fired. GLOF gives the 57th peace, and the same people are saying that was the wrong move.

In reality, this is nothing more than playground antics. You picked a side, and that is the side you're going to defend, no matter what happens. As for GLOF, we'll continue to believe that the IP screen shot was a fake. Our own experts, and outside experts have all said that they believe it to be forged. Playing CSI on the world stage in an attempt to allow Veneke and friends to appear innocent may allow you to band together to attack the actions of GLOF, but it will never change our minds- or those of the impartial observers we've enlisted to look at the situation for us.

As for the war, we've granted the 57th peace, just as was always intended. There was no effort to crush the alliance, nobody wanted that. If the 57th chooses not to accept the offer, that is their choice. The peace talks were getting nowhere, as the log dumped proved. So we decided to just walk away.

Have fun talking about how horrible we all are. I assure you I personally knew this would be the reaction as soon as I learned of the target. Thankfully, I find myself much more at home with those in my alliance than I do out here with the entire world.
[/quote]

Trust me when I say I have no side or stake in this at all and yet am still disgusted by the actions of GLOF. I chose no side, I just read the facts. Your evidence is underwhelming, your response completely disproportionate, and your conduct with respect to refusing to uphold mandatory requirements of a treaty is very telling. Even if you believe that Veneke was involved in deliberately ZIing your member, your actions are despicable. There was no immediate threat to GLOF at all and yet you still decided to completely ignore binding treaty obligations and attack a former ally. Not cool. Doubly so when you spend nothing more than a few hours even attempting to contact 57th.

If you don't care about accepted international norms then fine, but do so at your own risk. If you want to say that all of us neutral observers' opinions are not important, then fine but again do so at your own risk. Like I said earlier, I hope this was all worth it.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='17 February 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1266444708' post='2188092']
You must have missed the last three days. If the shots given to GLoF are falsified, they're an act of subterfuge, of war (as GLoF noted in theie DoW). GLoF believes them to be fakes without regard to the vailidity of the contested Veneke speech. While it may be true that as an alliance GLoF can conduct its membership as it sees fit, a deliberate scheme of this type undermines that ability, and, yes, does force GLoF's hand; in this case to expel the member (with whom 57th has a vendetta along with the rest of the 57th diaspora in GLoF).

All you hee-hawing cronies think we're using some OOC legal system. We're not. Wrong or right, 57th is under attack in retaltion to deliberate acts of subterfuge. GLoF was wrong, if within their rights, to attack without talking. But the issue is easily solved. Both GLoF and Veneke have said they're not IT masterminds. Ok, get someone that is, mask him at both forums to compare the IPs, biggity-bam it's a done deal or the war is still on depending on the result.

Instead, 57th has relied, once again, on simply taking their butt-whipping without addressing the core issue.

I understand you're allied to Veneke, but thatdoesn't mean you turn off your brain, though in the past year I've seen you do it over and over so I don't know why I ever had an opinion that you usedto use it. I guess I wasn't paying attention.
[/quote]


The evidence is seriously pathetic, but since it's GLOF's interpretation of it that matters (and GLOF apparently doesn't care about their PR at all) let's say this really was a deliberate attempt by Veneke to try and make GLOF think a member of theirs was spying or whatever. That's a very, very weak argument that that's somehow an act of war that justifies this level of response. There are so many mitigating circumstances surrounding the issue:

1) The member accessed went and nuclear rogued Veneke shortly after being confronted with the evidence; the member from what I understand went rogue before anything was actually done to him by GLOF (if that's incorrect then please feel free to correct me; this still would leave enough mitigating circumstances for my point).
2) The plot involved one person who at the time of the incident wasn't even in GLOF (due to having been expelled), which means...
3) There was no immediate threat to the security of GLOF.
4) There was no real attempt made to try and get an explanation or conduct any form of real diplomacy with the government of the 57th Overlanders. The "attempt" at diplomacy was done over a few hours at most
5) GLOF had an MDoAP with 57th with a binding cancellation and non-aggression clause, both of which were violated when there was no pressing reason to do so.

Look, I don't know Veneke and apparently he sucks. Fine. Heck, despite the fact that I think that GLOF is completely wrong with respect to the evidence, even giving them that makes their actions ridiculous. Of course, that's just my interpretation so GLOF, 57th, you, and the world can ignore it if you really want.

Edit: changed some wording to be more clear

Edited February 17, 2010 by Jyrinx

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149']

1) The member accessed went and nuclear rogued Veneke shortly after being confronted with the evidence; the member from what I understand went rogue before anything was actually done to him by GLOF (if that's incorrect then please feel free to correct me; this still would leave enough mitigating circumstances for my point).
[/quote]

He was asked to leave the alliance and was shown what Veneke gave us. He said that Veneke had lied to us but had no way of proving it. So he left since he saw that he couldn't defend himself and attacked Veneke for lying to get him expelled from the alliance.

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149']
2) The plot involved one person who at the time of the incident wasn't even in GLOF (due to having been expelled), which means...
[/quote]

Again, he was expelled due to the incident.

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149']
3) There was no immediate threat to the security of GLOF.
[/quote]

It means that he was expelled from the alliance based off of a lie, which would mean that forcing his expulsion would have been not a threat to our alliance, but an aggressive act already committed against our alliance.

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149']
4) There was no real attempt made to try and get an explanation or conduct any form of real diplomacy with the government of the 57th Overlanders. The "attempt" at diplomacy was done over a few hours at most
[/quote]

ok

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149']
5) GLOF had an MDoAP with 57th with a binding cancellation and non-aggression clause, both of which were violated when there was no pressing reason to do so.
[/quote]

both of which were violated when we were lied to for the purpose of ZIing a member. That is an aggressive act.

Whether or not you believe the SSs to be fake, we believe them to be. Which means that according to our beliefs our actions are justified.

Either way though, this matter is closed. We kept our word. That word being that we would give the 57th peace when they either admitted their wrongs or were bloodied enough. Veneke took that as a threat of Eternal war. Clearly, that was not the case and any that believed so were naive.

[Coloradia]

[quote name="Schatt"]
Shens. It is clearly incorrect to the entire planet--and I reject outright--the mere suggestion that you are more intelligent than anything. Your inability to formulate any sort of argument other than your one-trick caps lock and bad spelling impersonations is absolute proof of the base nature of your alleged intellect.
[/quote]
You must have completely missed where I showed how it is highly likely that the IP wasn't faked. Congratulations, you can join GLoF in the oblivious seating section. Oh, btw, I held shift, I didn't use capslock

[quote name="Centurius"]
They are correct because they agree with me and those others are wrong because they disagree, right? I will not respond to the rest of your post because I do not get aroused by calling others stupid.
[/quote] Once again, as with Obscurus, join the oblivious section. I was mocking a GLoF member who said that those who didn't support GLoF were essentially scum, liars, dishonourable etc. So I turned it 180 to see how he would react. The inability of so many of GLoF's supporters/members to comprehend even simple posts simply supports my belief that the GLoF side is incapable of the simplest logic.

[quote name="Obscurus"]
As I have said, Megalomania.
Instead of writing here, better look for a shrink.
Might do u better good in the long run.

Oh yes: you are behave like a troll and call names to others.
But you are right and the others are wrong. Go figure[/quote] I'm sorry, you don't seem to understand the very words that you are using. Megalomania doesn't apply in the slightest. There is nothing wrong with being aggravated by absurd levels of stupidity. Well, except that it exists, but that cannot be controlled.