That's Enough of That

[Coloradia]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='17 February 2010 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1266416435' post='2187522']
The self proclaimed righteous continue to harp on the "supposed" faked screenshot of the 57th's command board. Yet no one wants to really admit that the screenshots submitted by the 57th are to every much in question and haven't at all been proven to be genuine. Those screenshots got a member in good standing expelled.[b] Close up inspection of those images clearly show a bad attempt at changing the IP.[/b] You can see the poor job of pasting over the area in question.[b] However, so called experts agree that the command board screen-shots was a fake. With no real proof, no comparison of what the internal board of the 57th actually looks like. So which is it?[/b]

[b]I do not care what anyone says here. Most of you would have done the same thing. Yes, yes you would have. To say otherwise is to deny the human condition.[/b] In fact I am pretty sure most alliance leaders would have done the same thing. Real wars have been started over less.

[b]Do not preach about honor and integrity when you have no idea what the concept truly encompasses. Sideline quarterbacks are worse than anything.[/b]

Personally, this whole matter has left sour taste in my mouth. It has also soured the whole CN experience for me. Right or wrong I know for sure GLOF was manipulated. It started with the screenshots that got a member expelled. If the command board was a fake than even more assured the original IP screenshots were a fake as well. We will never know the whole truth here.

CN politics and the hypocrisy that surrounds it is indeed a mind numbing thing to be exposed to.

One thing is for sure [u][b]no one here is qualified[/b][/u] to judge my own integrity and honor.
[/quote]
#1. Fail. Try again.
#2. Fail again. Have you actually read anything that has been discussed on these boards on the issue? It has been proven fake quite clearly. Even GLoF members have admitted that the command board screenshot is fake.
#3. Sorry, you fail. AGAIN. Believe it or not, most people actually would talk to an ally before declaring war on them.
#4. Fail attempt at character assassination, trying to say we have no honor or integrity? I can't tell, but you fail either way, it's pretty clear to everyone that GLoF is the one lacking in honor and integrity.

It's better if GLoF doesn't post again unless it's an admission of guilt. None of your pathetic attempts to justify this war float any boats.

Edit: lol, Called GLoF GLoG =p

Edited February 17, 2010 by The Great One

[Mayzie]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1266417298' post='2187538']
#4. Fail attempt at character assassination, trying to say we have no honor or integrity? I can't tell, but you fail either way, it's pretty clear to everyone that GLoF is the one lacking in honor and integrity.

It's better if GLoG doesn't post again unless it's an admission of guilt. None of your pathetic attempts to justify this war float any boats.
[/quote]

It's pretty funny how you lot keep calling it character assassination, when you have a number of people run into a thread saying ''Veneke would never do anything like that, he'd never spy! We know him!''? I think what you keep on calling character assassination, the logs posted, etc. were simply to prove a point to those claiming to have more knowledge of Veneke and his actions than his former members & government members who he'd previously spoken to about spying, with which they provided evidence.

Quite clearly it's a good thing to run into a thread gobbing off in support of someone but when counter arguments to the persons actions & motives are made, that's character assassination.

I think it'd probably be better if you wait for Veneke to get online and see what his stance on the situation is before attempting to make demands on their behalf, but I'm sure you'll carry on.

[Treborprime]

[quote name='The Great One' date='17 February 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1266417298' post='2187538']
#1. Fail. Try again.
[/quote]

Umm no. JPEG compression is consistent in what it does to an image. The first Bracket around the IP was a clear example of a bad match job. No one has proven those screenshots aren't faked. Well you are just taking one persons word for it huh?

[quote]
#2. Fail again. Have you actually read anything that has been discussed on these boards on the issue? It has been proven fake quite clearly. Even GLoF members have admitted that the command board screenshot is fake.
[/quote]

Never said it wasn't. I still haven't seen a real comparison being done against the real thing. Please feel free to PM me a link to such a screenshot. I really want to know for my own purposes.

[quote]
#3. Sorry, you fail. AGAIN. Believe it or not, most people actually would talk to an ally before declaring war on them.
[/quote]

Yes there should have been a discussion, that is my personal opinion. But then again what would have talking accomplished? Take the command board screenshot out of the picture. How do you explain the original very faked IP screenshots? Again point number 3 is the true issue here. How would you approach such a discussion? Originally the 57th was given the benefit of the doubt.

[quote]
#4. Fail attempt at character assassination, trying to say we have no honor or integrity? I can't tell, but you fail either way, it's pretty clear to everyone that GLoF is the one lacking in honor and integrity.

It's better if GLoG doesn't post again unless it's an admission of guilt. None of your pathetic attempts to justify this war float any boats.
[/quote]

No, I was commenting on how people question the honor and integrity of a whole alliance. It is easy to talk about the high values and morale's of honor, integrity and ethics. But most people just talk it. Go read human history for proof. Sometimes the most difficult decision is the most ethical and morale. All I know is this, should it come out that all that GLOF went to war over was true. True for the masses to see, many here would be feeling pretty foolish. So no I was making no character assassinations. I was simply defending myself and those who I know are good people.

You obviously failed to comprehend the over all message. For that I am truly sorry.

Anyway, I am done. Once again flame baited into debating with those who do not want to debate and refuse to look at all sides.

This is my true failing here.

Good day.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='17 February 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1266418498' post='2187550']
Umm no. JPEG compression is consistent in what it does to an image. The first Bracket around the IP was a clear example of a bad match job. No one has proven those screenshots aren't faked. Well you are just taking one persons word for it huh?[/quote]

Nobody has proven GLoF doesn't intend to declare war on Nemesis. I shall speak to my triumvirate about this issue immediately. Hint: it's nigh on impossible to prove a negative and the burden of conclusive proof lies with you, not The 57th. You are the accusers.

This entire issue has been handled pathetically by GLoF from the start. You cancelled a treaty with your allies without talking to them. You then declared war on an alliance that was your MDoAP partner 2 seconds earlier without talking to them. Now you have declared a white peace, shock and horror, without talking to them.

[Coloradia]

[quote]Umm no. JPEG compression is consistent in what it does to an image. The first Bracket around the IP was a clear example of a bad match job. No one has proven those screenshots aren't faked. Well you are just taking one persons word for it huh?
[/quote]
Perhaps example of the behavior displayed thus far by GLoF, you ignore every single post that shows how the IP is not faked. Then say "You have no proof you just take Ven's word!". NO, seriously, this is sad.

[quote]Never said it wasn't. I still haven't seen a real comparison being done against the real thing. Please feel free to PM me a link to such a screenshot. I really want to know for my own purposes.
[/quote] It's in the original thread, many screenshots of 57th forums were taken to show that the number of pixels in the gap were different in the faked screenshot. A Silence member showed it as well shortly after the GLoF DoW was posted.

[quote]Yes there should have been a discussion, that is my personal opinion. But then again what would have talking accomplished? Take the command board screenshot out of the picture. [b]How do you explain the original very faked IP screenshots?[/b] Again point number 3 is the true issue here. How would you approach such a discussion? Originally the 57th was given the benefit of the doubt.
[/quote]

Once again, all GLoF can say is. "THE SS IS FAEK OMG" when it has been shown that it is highly likely not fake.

[quote]No, I was commenting on how people question the honor and integrity of a whole alliance. It is easy to talk about the high values and morale's of honor, integrity and ethics. But most people just talk it. Go read human history for proof. Sometimes the most difficult decision is the most ethical and morale. All I know is this, should it come out that all that GLOF went to war over was true. True for the masses to see, many here would be feeling pretty foolish. So no I was making no character assassinations. I was simply defending myself and those who I know are good people.

You obviously failed to comprehend the over all message. For that I am truly sorry.
[/quote]
Perhaps I did misunderstand what you were saying here. It sure appeared that you were taking a shot at everyone who has been defending 57th by saying they cannot know honor or integrity because they do not know what it means. I've reread it and it still looks that way to me.

As for questioning the honor and integrity of GLoF, yes, when every single GLoF member that has been posting has been in support of the war and I have yet to see a single GLoF member admit what everyone else seems to see quite clearly, (IP is very likely not faked), then yes, the honor and integrity of GLoF as a whole must be callled into question.

Edited February 17, 2010 by The Great One

[Delta1212]

It is never ok to attack someone you hold a treaty with. At the bare minimum, you have to cancel it first. No, no one would do what you did. I have avoided going to war with people my alliance didn't like despite worse actions than this, let alone my own allies. What you did was outrageously bad form and you aren't going to convince anyone otherwise. The fact that you are [I]ending[/I] the war because negotiations weren't going anywhere [I]doesn't even make sense[/I].

People get [I]attacked[/I] when they fail to resolve an issue diplomatically. Instead, you immediately launched a war on an alliance you held a treaty with and then when you "couldn't come to a resolution of the issue" gave them peace? That's the opposite of a logical progression. The only reason to declare peace after two days when you have the uper hand and the issue is still around is that you realized how badly you $%&@ed up and can't bear to admit it, which, quite frankly, makes you look worse than admitting you are wrong and trying to make ammends would. The reason for this is that, despite the behavior of many on these boards, this is [I]not[/I] a world populated by idiots.

When you make this big of a blunder, everyone can see. I'm even going to guess (well, hope) that your own allies told you have terribly you handled every step of the situation, albeit privately. This entire situation is a disgrace and even if the screenshot given you was now proved conclusively fake, GLOF still comes off looking as bad or [I]worse[/I] than 57th for how you've acted. Yes, it's [I]that[/I] bad and if you refuse to believe I'm telling the truth, you need to take a reality check and get someone to teach you the basic ettiquette of the game.

1. You do not attack treaty partners.
Hell, abandoning treaties at the outset of a war is frowned up. Cancelling a treaty in order to declare war on the alliance makes you look like a bit of a dick. You didn't even bother to cancel the treaty. Look at how much flak PC took for hitting TPF during Karma and now consider that they broke [I]an NAP[/I] to fight someone everone who they traditionally hated and who was fighting on the opposite side of a war.

2. War should be reserved for major offenses
The last war was the TPF debacle. War was declared over a plot to infiltrate and destroy alliances. There was plenty of debate over the validity of that CB but it was over [I]timing[/I] not whether that kind of action when taken is worthy of a war. In your case, you weregiven a screenshot that resulted in one of your members bein placed on a ZI list. First, if you want to do right by your membership, you need to confirm validity [i]before[/I] anything else happens, at least as much as is possible. If you find out afterwards that it was fake based on evidence that was readily available, that is a screw up of your protection of membership, not that it would excuse the perpetrator.

The problem is that your response was entirely disproportionate. The correct action would be to reinstate the member and have the perpetrator pay to rebuild the damage done Probably cancel the treaty with them as well. War [I]might[/I] not be out of the question if you can conclusively prove that the screenshot is a forgery and you have attempted to resolve the issue in the aforementioned manner for a few days or weeks with no progress [I]and[/I] you have already cancelled the treaty. You did none of that.

1. Unilateral white peace a couple of days into a war you declared is not the PR move you seem to think it is

This isn't really a rule but it bears repeating. What you did with this topic is essntily tell the world that you realize you fumbled this entire situation but are unwilling to admit it or make up for it in any way. If you had fought for at least a week already, [I]maybe[/I] it would be believeable. Nobody is going to accept that you fough for such a short time and are satisfied and your reasoningthat you declared peace because negotiations were stalled is the opposite of sense. If you were making progress would you keep beating on them until negotiation finished?

No. You screwed up. You know it. Everyone else knows it. You just won't admit it. I'll give you that this might be a way to save face with your membership since most trust what their leadership tells them to be the truth or they probably wouldn't be in the alliance, but this is such a thinly veiled excuse to back off the bomb you dropped that nobody without a vested interest in believing you is going to.

As for you invitation to come talk to you to see what you stand for, I think you have made that abundantly clear over the past few days. Unless you stand forthe opposite of everything you just did, I'm not really interested in hearing about it.

[Solarius4]

i fail to see why this is still being argued...this issue has been concluded and that is that...what's done is done and there's nothing more to be done other than brush yourself off, get to work, and move on...

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Solarius4' date='17 February 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1266422121' post='2187580']
i fail to see why this is still being argued...this issue has been concluded and that is that...what's done is done and there's nothing more to be done other than brush yourself off, get to work, and move on...
[/quote]

You're not the sole arbitrator of that, and I think I speak for many when I say thank God for that. If I were to attack a random GLoF nation and then inform the government that they should move on as I believe the issue is concluded I wonder what response I'd get?

There was two sides to this conflict, and one of them isn't going to sweep this under the carpet like your alliance so clearly wishes, just because you say so. Need to lose the over inflated self worth and realise you pulled a seriously dickish move.

Delta expresses my thoughts far more eloquently and elaborately, albeit with worse coding , above.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Poyplemonkeys

[General Somoza]

Funny thing, it seems that we're supposed to think every single person on Bob has sided against GLOF. In reality, most people don't care one way or the other. There is a small core of people that have come running to the defense of the 57th, and they have been screaming about peace since the first shot was fired. GLOF gives the 57th peace, and the same people are saying that was the wrong move.

In reality, this is nothing more than playground antics. You picked a side, and that is the side you're going to defend, no matter what happens. As for GLOF, we'll continue to believe that the IP screen shot was a fake. Our own experts, and outside experts have all said that they believe it to be forged. Playing CSI on the world stage in an attempt to allow Veneke and friends to appear innocent may allow you to band together to attack the actions of GLOF, but it will never change our minds- or those of the impartial observers we've enlisted to look at the situation for us.

As for the war, we've granted the 57th peace, just as was always intended. There was no effort to crush the alliance, nobody wanted that. If the 57th chooses not to accept the offer, that is their choice. The peace talks were getting nowhere, as the log dumped proved. So we decided to just walk away.

Have fun talking about how horrible we all are. I assure you I personally knew this would be the reaction as soon as I learned of the target. Thankfully, I find myself much more at home with those in my alliance than I do out here with the entire world.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='17 February 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1266422416' post='2187585']
You're not the sole arbitrator of that, and I think I speak for many when I say thank God for that. If I were to attack a random GLoF nation and then inform the government that they should move on as I believe the issue is concluded I wonder what response I'd get?

There was two sides to this conflict, and one of them isn't going to sweep this under the carpet like your alliance so clearly wishes, just because you say so. Need to lose the over inflated self worth and realise you pulled a seriously dickish move.

Delta expresses my thoughts far more eloquently and elaborately, albeit with worse coding , above.
[/quote]
It's not my fault the boards are broken. There is no difference between the coding that works and the coding that doesn't.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='17 February 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1266423058' post='2187596']
It's not my fault the boards are broken. There is no difference between the coding that works and the coding that doesn't.
[/quote]

I assume the boards are also at fault for your points being numbed 1. 2. 1. In all seriousness though, nice post

[Sephiroth]

Congrats on peace, I haven't paid much attention to this side war but glad to see it seemingly resolved. Good luck to everyone and such.

[Delta1212]

No, that would be my phone. Long posts tend to come out garbled when I type them on it.


Also to reiterate, do you have any idea how stupid "peace talks were going nowhere so we decided to declare peace" actually sounds? Generally speaking, the sentence goes more along the lines "Peace talks were going nowhere so we decided to declare war." Your way makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Not resolving the issue isn't a reason to declare peace. Peace can be declared [I]in spite[/I] of no resolution, but not [I]because[/I] of no resolution. None of your story makes any sense whatsoever unless you assume you guys are right as an objective value and then try to cram facts in around it.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Delta1212

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='17 February 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1266423460' post='2187605']
No, that would be my phone. Long posts tend to come out garbled when I type them on it.


Also to reiterate, do you have any idea how stupid "peace talks were going nowhere so we decided to declare peace" actually sounds? Generally speaking, the sentence goes more along the lines "Peace talks were going nowhere so we decided to declare war." Your way makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Not resolving the issue isn't a reason to declare peace. Peace can be declared [I]in spite[/I] of no resolution, but not [I]because[/I] of no resolution. None of your story makes any sense whatsoever unless you assume you guys are right as an objective value and then try to cram facts in around it.
[/quote]
It makes perfect sense. GLoF's goal wasn't to hammer 57th until the end of the alliance or time, whichever comes first. They hoped for some acknowledgement and apology and a pound of flesh. They've got the pound, but 57th and GLoF are both dug in on the issue of the shots. If everyone knows that no one is going to budge, then the next thing to do is call it a day. GLoF is satisfied that their loss has been reimbursed, on their end there really is no reason to keep going.

As far as ongoing arguments over the IPs, etc, the path to vindication for 57th is simple: Get bros masked, and get a technically sound, uninvested professional ruling. The shot of Veneke's gloating may very well be fake, but the IP shot also looks like an EphriamGrey vintage. I think they're both fake; it seems most likely to me that whoever gave GLoF the Veneke shot knew what was going on, but didn't have a written record so he made one.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Schattenmann

[obscurus]

Probably [s]trolls[/s] people here have not understood clearly that when we issued this decision, nobody in the Lodge was thinking of a PR move.

If we had thought solely about PRs (and I assure you, we did not), we would have acted much differently through all this.
So, the possibilities are two: either all of us 140 are on crack, or there was a motivation.
Ask yourself which.

Anything, we want to thank everyone for their "contributions" to our threads.
As someone said earlier, it's time to move on.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='16 February 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1266377356' post='2186895']
... smells more like mercy to me.

Well done GLoF. I can only imagine how difficult this must have been for you guys.
[/quote]

How? 57th arranges peace with others and prepares to focus their war on GLOF and suddenly GLOF is "done" and declares a unilateral peace? Sounds like they wanted to peace out - and quick.

[quote]Yet no one wants to really admit that the screenshots submitted by the 57th are to every much in question and haven't at all been proven to be genuine[/quote]

...they ARE considered genuine until you [i]prove[/i] they aren't. There's no way to prove they're not faked. Compression works in odd ways - it's very plausible that the green text looks different because green isn't compressed in the same way the other lines were, or that the asterisk somehow changed things (much more likely that green is compressed differently though). Your argument for attacking an MDoAP partner with no attempt at diplomacy was "the pixels!". What a joke. You make a great bloc look bad through your foolishness.

[quote]Personally, this whole matter has left sour taste in my mouth. It has also soured the whole CN experience for me. Right or wrong I know for sure GLOF was manipulated. It started with the screenshots that got a member expelled. If the command board was a fake than even more assured the original IP screenshots were a fake as well. We will never know the whole truth here.[/quote]

No, that's the thing. You [i]don't[/i] know [i]anything[/i] for sure. It *could* be faked, but it's more likely that it *isn't* faked. You have to also consider motive. Why would an ally try to hurt you? ...they wouldn't. And unless you have [i]damning[/i] evidence that they did (i.e. you looked up the IP on their boards and got something different) then your default response should be "weird" not "FAKE ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK [B]ATTACK[/B]."

Edited February 17, 2010 by Penkala

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Penkala' date='17 February 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1266424331' post='2187627']
How? 57th arranges peace with others and prepares to focus their war on GLOF and suddenly GLOF is "done" and declares a unilateral peace? Sounds like they wanted to peace out - and quick. [/quote]
And if 57th feels strongly about it, they're free to continue fighting.


[quote name='Penkala' date='17 February 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1266424331' post='2187627']
...they ARE considered genuine until you [i]prove[/i] they aren't. There's no way to prove they're not faked. Compression works in odd ways - it's very plausible that the green text looks different because green isn't compressed in the same way the other lines were, or that the asterisk somehow changed things (much more likely that green is compressed differently though). Your argument for attacking an MDoAP partner with no attempt at diplomacy was "the pixels!". What a joke. You make a great bloc look bad through your foolishness.
[/quote]

Cool story bro, except the issue is not with the green text. There is a perfect rectangle of no pixelation around the IP, because the IP that is there is a c/p job. Did you[i] even [/i]go to the GLoF forums and look at the shots? They didn't focus on the green text, they focused on the IP.

[Lord Panda]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='17 February 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1266425313' post='2187645']
And if 57th feels strongly about it, they're free to continue fighting.




Cool story bro, except the issue is not with the green text. There is a perfect rectangle of no pixelation around the IP, because the IP that is there is a c/p job. Did you[i] even [/i]go to the GLoF forums and look at the shots? They didn't focus on the green text, they focused on the IP.
[/quote]

I see Computer Science III is working out for you, Schatt.

[Schattenmann]

I see your brilliant defense against this unjustified war is still "nuh uh."

As I said above, get bros on the phone, get his expert ruling. The only thing you've got to lose is that he verifies that there was never any IP match, justifying the war, or, lo and behold he finds that there was an IP match, and then maybe you can get some reps from GLoF.

[Lord Panda]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='17 February 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1266426527' post='2187665']
I see your brilliant defense against this unjustified war is still "nuh uh."

As I said above, get bros on the phone, get his expert ruling. The only thing you've got to lose is that he verifies that there was never any IP match, justifying the war, or, lo and behold he finds that there was an IP match, and then maybe you can get some reps from GLoF.
[/quote]

Even if it was the case that the IP was forged, the war is still unjustified. How can you say that an ally breaking a treaty with no notification and blindsiding you while you're fighting in a Global Conflict is justified? Maybe in your own little world it's fine, but we here in the real world disagree with you.

There is no question of whether we deserve reparations or not. Will we get them? No, it's not very likely. And who's to say GLoF will take whatever bros says at face value if it doesn't coincide with their beliefs? No, at this point, it doesn't matter what anyone says. Your E-Lawyering and posturing is all for naught. Go find something else to.

[Coloradia]

Guess what Schatt! Really! Guess!

Fine...

The IP wasn't the only bit of the SS that was darker and sharper, as a matter of fact, "THE WHOLE ROW WAS FAKEZORZ CAUSE IT LOOKY DIFWENT" right? Yeah. If you say that the IP is fake because it was darker and sharper in the SS then you claim the location and time columns were fake as well. Guess what, there is absolutely no reason to fake the time, not even an idiot would fake it. The row above it was 4:29, below it was 4:25, in supposedly fake row it said 4:27. The 4:27 is sharper as well right? OMG THEY FAKED TEH TIMEZ! Yeah... it would have to be 4:25, 4:26, 4:27, 4:28, or 4:29 anyways so you can be pretty sure the 4:27 wasn't faked, there is absolutely no reason to. And OMG GUESS WHAT AGAIN! the 4:27 is sharper and darker than the other times! 1+1=2 right? So I guess that means that sharper and darker text doesn't mean it is fake! Woah who could have guessed.

[Charles the Great]

there is no peace here only mercy........I am done responding to all the people around here who say venke is such an angel...........if the 57th wish to continue that is there choice.....

from what I see most of the people who have disagreed with what we did I would not want to associate with anyway........glass houses and stones you know...........this place is nothing but a sesspool of lies, deciet, and political spin. politics as usual.........you can all think what you want of GLoF our TRUE friends know us as for the rest judge us how you will we know the truth about honor and integrity.

thank you,
CtG

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lord Panda' date='17 February 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1266426785' post='2187670']
Even if it was the case that the IP was forged, the war is still unjustified. How can you say that an ally breaking a treaty with no notification and blindsiding you while you're fighting in a Global Conflict is justified? Maybe in your own little world it's fine, but we here in the real world disagree with you.

There is no question of whether we deserve reparations or not. Will we get them? No, it's not very likely. And who's to say GLoF will take whatever bros says at face value if it doesn't coincide with their beliefs? No, at this point, it doesn't matter what anyone says. Your E-Lawyering and posturing is all for naught. Go find something else to.
[/quote]
The aggressive action is not GLoF's attack. If the accusations against 57th are true, then it is 57th that committed an aggressive act of war. Erego, the treaty is already gone. GLoF didn't have to say "we cancel the treaty and waive the wait period" because you're already at war once the aggressive act has occurred. Can you understand that? That's not e-lawyering it's simple progression. Once the war has started, it might be nice for a phone call, but no, it's not required; you're mad you guys are getting wrecked so you're screamign it's required, but there's no binding code regarding how fast an alliance can defend itself. If it were me, I wouldn't have even waited the three hours that GLoF waited if it meant missing an update.

Again, the question of reparations and justification is wrapped in the answer of whether the plot is true or not. And it's a very easy matter for 57th to clear up. So easy, in fact, that 57th's 4-day delay on proving GLoF wrong by showing that their IP evidence is true is [i][b]baffling[/b][/i] to me.

Please, prove GLoF is wrong and blow me away. Hell, mask me, I'll check out the IPs. If the key to your defense is that the evidence you gave GLoF was not fake, then why would you not pursue that with all expedience?

[Schattenmann]

What's most entertaining and [i]telling[/i] to me is that your response to my logical call to defend yourselves by proving GLoF wrong is to reply with "shut up! you're a big poopyhead!"

[Ogaden]

Well, thanks for seeking a resolution GLOF, that much at least is welcome.