Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[Sephiroth]

If MK really is dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW rather than that they were declared on that, I think that is strange. Crymson can get aggressive with his wording both in diplomacy and when making announcements especially for war, but people shouldn't read into it to much and take it represent TOP as some blood thirsty war mongers when they aren't. The reason for going to war was likely heavily debated on within TOP and with different reasons for different members. I think MK keeping this up probably only increases TOP's resolve hit them hard and changes more opinions towards CnG being a threat. Crymson was the Grandmaster at the time, so he got to the post the DoW and word it how he wants, but the reason TOP entering was a strategic move and not because they wanted to destroy CnG.

[joracy]

[quote name='Methrage' date='17 February 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1266386263' post='2187190']
If MK really is dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW rather than that they were declared on that, I think that is strange. Crymson can get aggressive with his wording both in diplomacy and when making announcements especially for war, but people shouldn't read into it to much and take it represent TOP as some blood thirsty war mongers when they aren't. The reason for going to war was likely heavily debated on within TOP and with different reasons for different members. I think MK keeping this up probably only increases TOP's resolve hit them hard and changes more opinions towards CnG being a threat. Crymson was the Grandmaster at the time, so he got to the post the DoW and word it how he wants, but the reason TOP entering was a strategic move and not because they wanted to destroy CnG.
[/quote]

This is neither solely done by MK, or based just on the DoW.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Methrage' date='17 February 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1266386263' post='2187190']
If MK really is dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW
[/quote]

Because its convenient to play word games with TOP's DoW. E.g. If you look at our DoW, you can clearly blame Londo
If one is going to be dense intentionally, might as well hold that to same standard.

'They're a threat!' is a an underlying factor on how Heg. conducted itself for good amount of time. Thats how the story began, wait and watch.

Edited February 17, 2010 by shahenshah

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Hayzell' date='17 February 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1266383085' post='2187104']
I'm not sure where he specifically said that, but in our DoW the reasoning was not that "you were vulnerable and we wanted to destroy you" so much as it was "we were likely to engage you anyway in a war we happened to agree with morally and intellectually, saw you as an overall threat, and decided the best thing to do would be to pre empt you as it as it coalesed well with our desire to enter that war, win that war, and defeat (which means to somewhat weaken relatively, not utterly annihilate) what we perceived to be a threat all at the same time".
[/quote]

Well to be fair he actually said that line in your DoW itself. If he meant different, he definitely didn't clarify. That single line is turning out more costly than he imagined I'm sure. It really signified Crymson's apparent paranoia.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 February 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1266386693' post='2187196']
'They're a threat!' is a an underlying factor on how Heg. conducted itself for good amount of time. Thats how the story began, wait and watch.
[/quote]

Why would you even criticize that line of thinking if that, by all accounts, is why IRON and TOP attacked CnG preemptively. You all perceived them as a "threat" to your side of the war so you attacked first.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 February 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1266386263' post='2187190']
If MK really is dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW rather than that they were declared on that, I think that is strange. Crymson can get aggressive with his wording both in diplomacy and when making announcements especially for war, but people shouldn't read into it to much and take it represent TOP as some blood thirsty war mongers when they aren't. The reason for going to war was likely heavily debated on within TOP and with different reasons for different members. I think MK keeping this up probably only increases TOP's resolve hit them hard and changes more opinions towards CnG being a threat. Crymson was the Grandmaster at the time, so he got to the post the DoW and word it how he wants, but the reason TOP entering was a strategic move and not because they wanted to destroy CnG.
[/quote]


The issue is one of precedent [b]and[/b] aggression.
This global war was facilitated using a round-about logic attempting to manipulate self-evident truths.

That it is "logical" to assert that one party will join to defend their allies falling under my attack is irrelevant.
Should one [b]choose[/b] to attack an alliance, the reality that their allies (particularly ones as fervent as MK, or OG for that matter) will join is unquestionably insufficient to claim that initial strikes on said allies is permissible.

In fact, that logic asserts a global "logic" I refuse to accept.
This is no more logical than to claim that any spy may enter peace mode prior to consequences being enacted and that it is thus logical to keep all players in a perpetual state of war to prevent the inevitibility of a spy seeking protection.

The sooner TOP and IRON can admit that their actions (though perhaps strategically pertinent for contingency planning) were unacceptable by precedent and global decency, the sooner they can claim that such precedents are irrelevant and we can move forward on the notion that [b]we are fighting over whether or not to accept this new intended acceptibility.[/b]

TOP, IRON, you are certainly capable of claiming (and fighting for) your "right" to act in this manner; but let us dispense with the pretense.

EDIT: Edited for spelling and clarity.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Krack]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 February 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1266386693' post='2187196']
Because its convenient to play word games with TOP's DoW. E.g. If you look at our DoW, you can clearly blame Londo
If one is going to be dense intentionally, might as well hold that to same standard.

'They're a threat!' is a an underlying factor on how Heg. conducted itself for good amount of time. Thats how the story began, wait and watch.
[/quote]

Of course, as we all know, "They're a threat!" is used when someone is concerned that another is going to harm them. In this instance, C&G wasn't acting because it was [i]concerned[/i] that TOP/IRON was going to harm them; instead, they were [i]actually being harmed[/i] by TOP/IRON. On the other hand, TOP/IRON was acting because it was [i]concerned[/i] C&G was going to harm them.

So ... you have astutely pointed out how TOP and IRON are behaving exactly as they did when the old Hegemony was in power. You are further pointing out that, apparently, the Karma War didn't serve as a "rethinking our whole approach to foreign affairs" moment for either alliance; as it should have. Thank you for making our point.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Hayzell' date='16 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1266383085' post='2187104']
Right. And based on the above observation it was strategically decided ([b]by undoubtedly one of the greatest military minds of our time and confirmed by others[/b]) that the best strategic move would have been to cripple CnG from being able to effectively counter the blitz which would have otherwise been launched against CnG allies. Obviously in hindsight the move seems to be our greatest folly, blah blah blah
[/quote]
oyababy is helping you! SPAI!

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Krack' date='16 February 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1266389645' post='2187250']
So ... you have astutely pointed out how TOP and IRON are behaving exactly as they did when the old Hegemony was in power. You are further pointing out that, apparently, the Karma War didn't serve as a "rethinking our whole approach to foreign affairs" moment for either alliance; as it should have. Thank you for making our point.
[/quote]

We could play the same game with Athens. Wanna?

[Krack]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='17 February 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1266390390' post='2187263']
We could play the same game with Athens. Wanna?
[/quote]

No, not really. Personally, I'm completely disinterested in Athens. I'm not treatied to them. I don't feel threatened by them. And I'm not sure I've ever had a conversation with someone in their alliance. But, by all means, if you think that's a conversation everyone in Cybernations is champing at the bit to have tonight, feel free to start a new thread.

Now, how does that change the fact that TOP and IRON attacked C&G because they haven't learned anything from the Karma War? Was TOP and IRON concerned that Athens was about to dominate the entirety of Planet Bob much in the same way that the Continuum/One Vision did?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Krack

[Gunnar Griffin]

Enlightening post, Archon. =]

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Krack' date='17 February 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1266390689' post='2187267']
No, not really. Personally, I'm completely disinterested in Athens. I'm not treatied to them. I don't feel threatened by them. And I'm not sure I've ever had a conversation with someone in their alliance. But, by all means, if you think that's a conversation everyone in Cybernations is champing at the bit to have tonight, feel free to start a new thread.

Now, how does that change the fact that TOP and IRON attacked C&G because they haven't learned anything from the Karma War? Was TOP and IRON concerned that Athens was about to dominate the entirety of Planet Bob much in the same way that the Continuum/One Vision did?
[/quote]

Your ruler's name is quite appropriate.

We're jumping right into Operation Karma Clean-Up, and right on schedule too. So now TOP/IRON did this because of failures to "learn" from the Karma War...a war that was started due to attacks during peace negotiations that were delayed out in order to cause said war? Seriously? Krack, indeed.

[Krack]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='17 February 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1266391356' post='2187278']
Your ruler's name is quite appropriate.

We're jumping right into Operation Karma Clean-Up, and right on schedule too. So now TOP/IRON did this because of failures to "learn" from the Karma War...a war that was started due to attacks during peace negotiations that were delayed out in order to cause said war? Seriously? Krack, indeed.
[/quote]

No, TOP and IRON "did this" because they are/were run by poor leadership and they thought (incorrectly) they could declare war on C&G, fight, and improve their alliances' global positions. Their failure to learn anything about themselves and Planet Bob (and the current diplomatic and political climate) from the Karma War simply prevented them from not being stupid.

tl;dr:
They didn't attack because of the Karma War, but the Karma War [i]should have[/i] demonstrated to them how foolish it would be to attack. It did not.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Krack

[mdnss69]

The usual war-time "oh look at me, I'm over here" from Archon. How quite predictable.

[James I]

[quote name='Methrage' date='17 February 2010 - 05:57 AM' timestamp='1266386263' post='2187190']
If MK really is dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW rather than that they were declared on that, I think that is strange. Crymson can get aggressive with his wording both in diplomacy and when making announcements especially for war, but people shouldn't read into it to much and take it represent TOP as some blood thirsty war mongers when they aren't. The reason for going to war was likely heavily debated on within TOP and with different reasons for different members. I think MK keeping this up probably only increases TOP's resolve hit them hard and changes more opinions towards CnG being a threat. Crymson was the Grandmaster at the time, so he got to the post the DoW and word it how he wants, but the reason TOP entering was a strategic move and not because they wanted to destroy CnG.
[/quote]
Please re-read Archon's original post and you'll understand that we are not merely "dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW".

Anyway, if Crymson doesn't want to be seen as aggressive, he'd do well to tone things down so as not to give that impression because it has very often come off that way. You're almost certainly right that the reasons for going to war were heavily debated inside TOP, which is a good reason why it's difficult to disregard the tone of the DoW because Crymson was just being his silly old self again. I do appreciate that that is quite difficult not to sound threatening in the context of an aggressive declaration of war, but his previously aired assertion that this would be their "best chance to bloody" C&G - now subject of some infamy - certainly adds a good deal of force to our belief that this was an example of aggressive opportunism.

Edited February 17, 2010 by James I

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Krack' date='17 February 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1266391931' post='2187288']
No, TOP and IRON "did this" because they are/were run by poor leadership and they thought (incorrectly) they could declare war on C&G, fight, and improve their alliances' global positions. Their failure to learn anything about themselves and Planet Bob (and the current diplomatic and political climate) from the Karma War simply prevented them from not being stupid.

tl;dr:
They didn't attack because of the Karma War, but the Karma War [i]should have[/i] demonstrated to them how foolish it would be to attack. It did not.
[/quote]

So...this is about C&G being tough? Or...? You aren't really making a point other than you think they should have learned to sit back and wait till it's there turn on the chopping block. It's not nice to cut in line. Is this what I'm supposed to be getting from you?

[quote name='James I' date='17 February 2010 - 03:55 AM' timestamp='1266404137' post='2187397']
Please re-read Archon's original post and you'll understand that we are not merely "dragging this war out because of the wording of the DoW".

Anyway, if Crymson doesn't want to be seen as aggressive, he'd do well to tone things down so as not to give that impression because it has very often come off that way. You're almost certainly right that the reasons for going to war were heavily debated inside TOP, which is a good reason why it's difficult to disregard the tone of the DoW because Crymson was just being his silly old self again. I do appreciate that that is quite difficult not to sound threatening in the context of an aggressive declaration of war, but his previously aired assertion that this would be their "best chance to bloody" C&G - now subject of some infamy - certainly adds a good deal of force to our belief that this was an example of aggressive opportunism.
[/quote]

Right, just disregard the other reasons for doing it.

[Affluenza]

[quote name='Hayzell' date='16 February 2010 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1266290621' post='2184188']
I'll just point out that it is not in Archon's or CnG's interests to portray an objective description of events, lest they not be able to persuade more alliances to peace out so they may better destroy 'TIFDTT'. All his post really reads to me is the various talking points I've heard everywhere, compiled into one verbose speech in which he makes sure to depict us as Hegemoinc cronies picking on innocent do-gooders.

This war does not have to be won to be ended, in my opinion. I think both sides have sustained enough damage that they would be willing to see things end if a reasonable solution were proposed; but pursuing this war until one side is destroyed will have near as bad consequences for the other side.
[/quote]

I say most excellent...

[James I]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='17 February 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1266405406' post='2187414']Right, just disregard the other reasons for doing it.
[/quote]
If by "doing it", you mean "declaring war" on us, then I didn't mean to suggest it was the only reason. It was more of a response to Methrage attempting to free TOP of all accusations of aggression.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='James I' date='17 February 2010 - 04:35 AM' timestamp='1266406505' post='2187423']
If by "doing it", you mean "declaring war" on us, then I didn't mean to suggest it was the only reason. It was more of a response to Methrage attempting to free TOP of all accusations of aggression.
[/quote]

Do they have a school for you guys?

No where in his post did he even indicate they should be free of such accusations. He clearly even said they declared. C&G Re-education FTW

[James I]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='17 February 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1266407222' post='2187425']
Do they have a school for you guys?

No where in his post did he even indicate they should be free of such accusations. He clearly even said they declared. C&G Re-education FTW
[/quote]
Haha. These two quotes: "people shouldn't read into it to much and take it represent TOP as some blood thirsty war mongers" and "the reason TOP entering was a strategic move and not because they wanted to destroy CnG" were what I was going off.

edit: perhaps I should have used a word other than "aggressive", which is often used solely to represent that party that declared war in this domain. I was using it in its broader sense.

Edited February 17, 2010 by James I

[nippy]

[quote name='mdnss69' date='17 February 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1266399229' post='2187354']
The usual war-time "oh look at me, I'm over here" from Archon. How quite predictable.
[/quote]

The usual "I'm opposed to whatever you said but have no counterpoints" response. How predictable.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Krack' date='17 February 2010 - 07:32 AM' timestamp='1266391931' post='2187288']
No, TOP and IRON "did this" because they are/were run by poor leadership and they thought (incorrectly) they could declare war on C&G, fight, and improve their alliances' global positions. Their failure to learn anything about themselves and Planet Bob (and the current diplomatic and political climate) from the Karma War simply prevented them from not being stupid.

tl;dr:
They didn't attack because of the Karma War, but the Karma War [i]should have[/i] demonstrated to them how foolish it would be to attack. It did not.
[/quote]

IRON attacked CnG because your entry into this war was inevitable maybe not directly on TOP or IRON but on multiple members of the coalition that had formed. It was strategically advantageous at the time to do so. I will not deny we have always thought of CnG as a threat, that however was not the motivation for our attack on CnG in this instance. That is what was said to Archon on IRON's behalf.

[lebubu]

[quote name='nippy' date='17 February 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1266411918' post='2187466']
The usual "I'm opposed to whatever you said but have no counterpoints" response. How predictable.
[/quote]

The man is still bitter we rolled his alliance for spying, give him a break.

[Roadie]

lol @ the OP for trying to blame it's technological inferiority in comparison to TOP on the WoTC it was involved in for 12 days.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Roadie' date='17 February 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1266414055' post='2187485']
lol @ the OP for trying to blame it's technological inferiority in comparison to TOP on the WoTC it was involved in for 12 days.
[/quote]

Unlike TOP, MK has been through three devastating wars - the UjW which ended with us paying reps, noCB which ended with us being crippled and spending the next 4 months funding an enormous amount of tech for our size and a nuclear war with your very own alliance (I don't think I need to remind you that TOP made no-nuke agreements during Karma). Sure, we recovered a good amount of tech but what we can't recover is the time we spent with tied slots - sending tech and funding it internally. Regardless, our top tier was still better than what most alliances (even sanctioned) had but there was technically no way to catch up on TOP, an alliance that had not been beaten into the ground before.

You'll have to try harder, buddy!