Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[Anu Drake]

As always I envy your master of language and reason, Archon. Politically, I may find myself on the other side, but personally there are few I would put on an equal level as you.

[Penkala]

An honor to stand on the side of justice yet again.

o/ Archon.

[Coven]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='16 February 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1266356961' post='2186236']
I've never understood why people who are otherwise friendly suddenly turn so hostile.
[/quote]

I'm still friendly, just was speaking my mind.

[Believland]

[quote name='Drai' date='16 February 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1266343186' post='2185776']
Are you forgetting the Karma war? Any [i]nuclear [/i]war takes a toll on your nation even if you're on the winning side. I lost 11k infra in Karma war. How much did the average TOP nation lose?

I realize you weren't our opponent in that war, but you made it seem like we've had 2 years to rebuild from the no CB war, which isn't true in the slightest.
[/quote]
No I'm not. I understood that you lost things in the karma, as well as many others. But, if you cite the WoTC for your lack of growth, I will call you out. And yes, I have realized that nukes will hurt you.

As far as average Paradoxian lost during the Karma war, it would be a lot less than any Mushroom due to the facts that MK went fully nuclear and TOP didn't(Earlier this war, Saber said it was due to tactics) and the fact that TOP didn't stay as long as MK.

Again, if you're going to cite the wotc I'm going to laugh at you and call you out. That's like me complaining that I haven't been able to build since the NoV war.

[Stetson76]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='16 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1266356961' post='2186236']
Used for propaganda? What propaganda? The conversation helped us come to a conclusion. How it is presented, well, as anyone with half a brain has observed, was to be quite expected. I wasn't exactly going to please you folks with our decision anyway, so remind me again why I should care?
[/quote]

So, you made your mind up ahead of time i.e. "I wasn't exactly going to please you folks with our decision anyway" and yet, you claim that holding "honest talks" wasn't propaganda?

[Shardoon]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='16 February 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1266356889' post='2186233']
I personally hope the war lasts for a year.
[/quote]

Shall I calculate how many times I can buy from 0-1000 infra with my current warchest?

On topic: Some of us at TOP were certainly prepared for the "worst case scenario" - which would be TOP vs. THE WORLD. And we are indeed enjoying the fruits of our consequences.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Shardoon

[Archon]

[quote name='Airikr' date='16 February 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1266358173' post='2186293']
I'm still friendly, just was speaking my mind.
[/quote]

Suit yourself.

[quote name='Stetson' date='16 February 2010 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1266358885' post='2186316']
So, you made your mind up ahead of time i.e. "I wasn't exactly going to please you folks with our decision anyway" and yet, you claim that holding "honest talks" wasn't propaganda?
[/quote]

You misunderstood me. I was saying that, once we made our decision I knew that decision which we had made would not please you folks. I was referring only to the authoring of the OP.

[junkahoolik]

[quote name='joracy' date='16 February 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1266357041' post='2186242']
Not wanting to offer them white peace, and wanting to ensure we win the war and they are no longer an immediate threat to us is not the same as attacking alliances under incredibly shaky CB's, curbstomping alliances for months after their military as been dismantled, extorting reps that trump any grievance we may have, imposing draconian terms removing members from government/destroying wonders/etc or secret terms, and all the other stuff the hegemony is noted for. TOP et al attacked us. The idea that we are as evil as the hegemony because now that they've attacked us, we want a conclusion to the war is laughable. When we aggressively attacked them with a weak CB, hold them at war long after they have been defeated, and give them draconian terms, you'll have a point. Until then, such comparisons are silly and insult peoples intelligence. This mutually beneficial thing is also incredibly silly. Do you know what else would be mutually beneficial? TOP et al agreeing to negotiate at some point and not simply demanding white peace in perpetuity. I'm sure that would end this war much quicker, and any terms they did get would benefit them compared to drawing the war out even longer, both politically, militarily and economically. They refuse to do that. We are assaulted non stop, both officially, and unofficially, in private and public that they will never negotiate anything but straight white peace. Yet; they are not lambasted for this. They could do something that would benefit both parties, but have stated they will refuse. We both have our opinions on how this war should end; and both are guilty of not doing something mutually beneficial and something that would end this war sooner.
[/quote]

funny you should be the one who talks about being assaulted officially and unofficially... what did you do on IRON's private channels?? and what was all that joking about putting Merlin as DAWN's viceroy?? really... i wouldn't show my head in public if i were you...

[TECUMSEH]

[quote]We both have our opinions on how this war should end; and both are guilty of not doing something mutually beneficial and something that would end this war sooner.[/quote]

Yes. Setting aside all the other garbage and simply looking at it from a negotiations standpoint, it's quite obvious that the parties are at a considerable impasse and each seems to be firmly dug in on their respective positions.

In terms of perception, it seems that, IMO, the perception is that TOP's position is rather immutable. For whathever reason, the perception, rightly or wrongly, is that CnG can be more flexible. Hence, I think, a somewhat skewed perception of the bargaining table when, in fact, what you say is true, Joracy -- it's up to both parties. I don't envy your position. I hope that ODN and others are able to reach a sensible resolution sooner rather than later.

[merlin]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='16 February 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1266362364' post='2186409']
funny you should be the one who talks about being assaulted officially and unofficially... what did you do on IRON's private channels?? and what was all that joking about putting Merlin as DAWN's viceroy?? really... i wouldn't show my head in public if i were you...
[/quote]

That is in addition to the 100 billion dongs I will be receiving from TOP. Lest we forget.

[Bob]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='16 February 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1266362364' post='2186409']
funny you should be the one who talks about being assaulted officially and unofficially... what did you do on IRON's private channels?? and what was all that joking about putting Merlin as DAWN's viceroy?? really... i wouldn't show my head in public if i were you...
[/quote]
I think its pretty clear what that was.

Joking, you even said it.

TOP will be paying CnG 100trillion dollars. by 2/12/2010.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[joracy]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='16 February 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1266362364' post='2186409']
funny you should be the one who talks about being assaulted officially and unofficially... what did you do on IRON's private channels?? and what was all that joking about putting Merlin as DAWN's viceroy?? really... i wouldn't show my head in public if i were you...
[/quote]

Yes, some jokes me or members of ODN have made are very relevant to your side refusing anything but straight white peace, and you have managed to single handedly dismantle my entire argument. Congratulations! I don't see what this has to do with what I've said, except for you picking out two words in my paragraph and talking about something unrelated.

Also, I've been in IRON's private channel? Cool.

EDIT: Also, Joracy for TOP and IRON viceroy!

Edited February 16, 2010 by joracy

[Bob]

[quote name='joracy' date='16 February 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1266363265' post='2186436']
Yes, some jokes me or members of ODN have made are very relevant to your side refusing anything but straight white peace, and you have managed to single handedly dismantle my entire argument. Congratulations! I don't see what this has to do with what I've said, except for you picking out two words in my paragraph and talking about something unrelated.

Also, I've been in IRON's private channel? Cool.

EDIT: Also, Joracy for TOP and IRON viceroy!
[/quote]
I thought Arsenal was going to be viceroy of IRON, and Stumpy of TOP. What happened to that plan?

[Machiabelly]

I never get to be Viceroy.

[Banksy]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='17 February 2010 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1266362364' post='2186409']
funny you should be the one who talks about being assaulted officially and unofficially... what did you do on IRON's private channels?? and what was all that joking about putting Merlin as DAWN's viceroy?? really... i wouldn't show my head in public if i were you...
[/quote]
Merlin will be the viceroy of DAWN, as well as IRON, TOP and of course the ODN.

[anenu]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='16 February 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1266363370' post='2186441']
I thought Arsenal was going to be viceroy of IRON, and Stumpy of TOP. What happened to that plan?
[/quote]

Stumpy is already the Viceroy of Purple and it would be wrong to distract him from his duties their

[joracy]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='16 February 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1266363370' post='2186441']
I thought Arsenal was going to be viceroy of IRON, and Stumpy of TOP. What happened to that plan?
[/quote]

I wanna job :<

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='anenu' date='16 February 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1266363692' post='2186449']
Stumpy is already the Viceroy of Purple and it would be wrong to distract him from his duties their
[/quote]

He first act as Viceroy will be to move TOP to purple.

/sorry for spoiling the surprise

[junkahoolik]

[quote name='joracy' date='17 February 2010 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1266363265' post='2186436']
Yes, some jokes me or members of ODN have made are very relevant to your side refusing anything but straight white peace, and you have managed to single handedly dismantle my entire argument. Congratulations! I don't see what this has to do with what I've said, except for you picking out two words in my paragraph and talking about something unrelated.

Also, I've been in IRON's private channel? Cool.

EDIT: Also, Joracy for TOP and IRON viceroy!
[/quote]


ooh, i do so love this man!! he embodies the whole of CnG

[OneBallMan]

You attack someone who may or may not be a future threat when their power position appears to tilt to your advantage? And now you cry for white peace, because you miscalculated and may or may not have been betrayed/misread the true strategic sitrep?

This begets nothing less than full reparations for losses as well as a future weakening of your proven aggressive intents. If reparations are ever due, it is now and I hope they are as severe as any that have ever been demanded. Reps for wars started by the tC as curbstomps were disgusting, as was the behavior of some during the Karma War, reps for this abomination are simply, due. The nations who entered aggressively against CnG have cast their fate onto the whims of chance, and now are looking at a pair of single digits staring at them. Consequences.

[Hyperbad]

The clarification that no terms have been discussed and clarification of your perspective is understandable given the false hoods, assumptions, and misreading of member sentiment as reflective of leadership. I'm sure it's appreciated that it's finally been giving an initial thread of its own instead of being lost in the middle of mega threads elsewhere where it likely wouldn't even be glanced at. However, it feels as though neither side in this dispute is really trying to understand the other and like C&G is becoming paranoid (if they weren't already) of their opponents.

When one party reads the other side's commentary I see one often refer to their own insider knowledge. The other side doesn't have that benefit, hence everyone seeing themselves in this present position. I don't really know what either side expects of open and honest talks here or in private. It seems very much like everyone made up their minds even before this war and this war simply is acting as evidence to both sides on why they're right. I don't honestly think there is anything either side can do to make the other understand how they feel. The only way that relations may be mended is quite probably by simply putting this behind you all and working on the lack of communication to avoid such issues down the road but no one seems willing or able to make that little bit of effort. Then again maybe some do but they simply lack a support base for making it on a wider scale.

Either way, I'm happy I'm not an involved party here simply because of the thick headedness all around.

[Banksy]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='17 February 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1266364378' post='2186470']
ooh, i do so love this man!! he embodies the whole of CnG
[/quote]

Please- keep this discussion civil. Calling C&G "Joracy" is terribly insulting.

Edited February 17, 2010 by jamesdanaher

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

It seems as though everyone is ignoring the elephant in the sitting room.

If the intention really had been for peace and Archon and Grub had knowledge of the impending attack, didn't communicate that knowledge to each other and didn't communicate that the peace process between Polaris and \m/ was close to concluding or had been concluded to TOP and Co. in order to prevent a meaningless war, what we have here is quite clearly a disingenous PR exercise, in the part relating to the lead-up to the war (I'm not addressing the discussion about white peace/terms etc. etc. here)

If the intention was for war on the other hand, by letting things happen the way they happened, then it's all cool daddy-o. After all, all's fair in love and war, so just !@#$@#$ well say so damn it and stop skirting around the truth of the matter.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[joracy]

[quote name='junkahoolik' date='16 February 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1266364378' post='2186470']
ooh, i do so love this man!! he embodies the whole of CnG
[/quote]

Umm, cool? I guess this is where I say you taking two words out of context, blathering about something unrelated to my post, and refusing to respond to the actual content of the post, while making some mock insult against me and my allies when I call you out on doing nothing but raising your post count embodies the whole of IRON and their general strategy on public relations and the BB since the TPF war?

Edited February 17, 2010 by joracy

[Coven]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='16 February 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1266362255' post='2186406']
Suit yourself.
[/quote]

I've always liked ya and respected ya Archon, please don't take it too personally. Just, we are always on the opposite side when it comes to war, so, my comments are likely to be oriented as such.

I'll buy ya a beer when the shooting stops.