Will MK DoW on alliances attacking the NpO?

[lebubu]

[quote name='Swiper' date='08 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1265641763' post='2168733']
Yeah isn't our Q&A topic like the biggest thread evar?
[/quote]

It's certainly up there...

[img]http://i47.tinypic.com/2n9iy6c.png [/img]

[Teriethien]

[quote name='lebubu' date='08 February 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1265640498' post='2168717']
NpO is actually the most discussed topic on our boards, so I'd say our members [i]do[/i] care. The first part of your post is spot on, though.
[/quote]

Well, it is only my personal impression after all, and I don't have the full picture. Nonetheless you'll forgive me for saying that words alone are not going to be nearly enough to convince me otherwise. Of course, I realise that my opinion on this matter is rather inconsequential.

[Archon]

The amount of people who profess to know the inner thoughts and motivations of MK is staggering to me. Of course, they're all on the other side of the war, so it couldn't possibly be that they're just talking out of their $@! or anything, right? I mean it's not like they're actually admitting they're speaking against us because they have a grudge or anything? How silly.

As lebubu pointed out, MK is literally talking about Polar more than anything else. And we have the proof of that. We care quite a bit about them, and frankly we would like to see their other front close as that front is tied quite closely to a number of alliance MK is either allied to or is friendly with. Are [s]their[/s]there other motives? Sure. Is the "OMG YOU ONLY WANT TO HELP THEM SO THEY CAN FIGHT TOP!!!!1!!1!" motive the only one? No, that claim is disingenuous. But then again, I've already covered why people are touting that party line.

Edit Reason: I can has grammars. their != there

Edited February 8, 2010 by TheNeverender

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='09 February 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1265647640' post='2168802']
The amount of people who profess to know the inner thoughts and motivations of MK is staggering to me. Of course, they're all on the other side of the war, so it couldn't possibly be that they're just talking out of their $@! or anything, right? I mean it's not like they're actually admitting they're speaking against us because they have a grudge or anything? How silly.
[/quote]
I have seen quite a bit of that type of speculation about polaris as well.
It seems to be the latest fad for the troll squads to profess to have a special insight into the thoughts and motivations of alliance leaders that even directly contradicts what the alliance leader in question has said and done.

EDIT - I am agreeing with Archon... the world must surely be messed up now. Even I would of never seen this coming before this war.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Swiper]

Archon is a pretty chill bro.

[Arthur Blair]

So MK should honor non-existent treaties* with polar because some people have a grudge against MK?

Yes, that makes a lot of sense and is exactly what we should do. After all, the people who want us dead is calling for it.


Or maybe, just maybe, we should continue to conduct our foreign affairs in a sane manner no matter what certain members of the enemy coalition that attacked us without due cause are calling for. You know nothing of our relationship with polar, you know nothing of our motivations. Pretending you do is not a valid argument and never will be. Try something else.


[size="1"]* If you don't understand this, try looking up what a non-chaining treaty actually is. You might be surprised! Especially considering some of the 'arguments' raised in this thread.[/size]

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Should either signatory be subject to an act of aggression then they are well within their rights to request military support, which the other signatory is obligated to provide unless the former signatory has become involved in a conflict via treaties with third party alliances. In such a case, the request for aid becomes voluntary.[/quote]
Polar came into this war via treaties? I thought it started it

[hizzy]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='09 February 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1265662096' post='2169037']
Polar came into this war via treaties? I thought it started it
[/quote]

in which case it would still fall under the 'oA'...

[Arthur Blair]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='08 February 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1265662096' post='2169037']
Polar came into this war via treaties? I thought it started it
[/quote]

I understand that it's easy to get confused in these wars. I refer you to AlmightyGrub's statements as emperor of the NpO.

[quote name='Imperial Decree - New Polar Order']
A few short days ago, the New Polar Order acknowledged the cessation of hostilities with \m/, Poison Clan and FOK. A war was fought and ended.
[/quote]

Ending their aggressive war on \m/.

[quote name='Imperial Decree - New Polar Order']
The New Sith Order, being both treaty partners, good friends and great people require our assistance the most. ... The New Polar Order therefore declares war on the Global Order of Darkness.
[/quote]

And starting their defensive war for NSO against GOD. Becoming involved in a conflict via treaties with third party alliances.

[Bob Janova]

But the point where the MK-NpO treaty should have become active was in the first phase of the war, when FOK and Stickmen attacked them.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='08 February 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1265676465' post='2169408']
But the point where the MK-NpO treaty should have become active was in the first phase of the war, when FOK and Stickmen attacked them.
[/quote]

Even if you disagree with the wording over who was the aggressor, the NpO did [i]not ask MK for support[/i]. The treaty only becomes active if someone activates it.

[Drai]

[quote name='Moridin' date='08 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265676726' post='2169412']
Even if you disagree with the wording over who was the aggressor, the NpO did [i]not ask MK for support[/i]. The treaty only becomes active if someone activates it.
[/quote]
This, as well as the fact that Grub told his allies not to enter the conflict as he didn't want the issue to expand (which obviously failed).

[The AUT]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='08 February 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1265647640' post='2168802']
The amount of people who profess to know the inner thoughts and motivations of MK is staggering to me. Of course, they're all on the other side of the war, so it couldn't possibly be that they're just talking out of their $@! or anything, right? I mean it's not like they're actually admitting they're speaking against us because they have a grudge or anything? How silly.

As lebubu pointed out, MK is literally talking about Polar more than anything else. And we have the proof of that. [b]We care quite a bit about them, and frankly we would like to see their other front close as that front is tied quite closely to a number of alliance MK is either allied to or is friendly with.[/b] Are [s]their[/s]there other motives? Sure. Is the "OMG YOU ONLY WANT TO HELP THEM SO THEY CAN FIGHT TOP!!!!1!!1!" motive the only one? No, that claim is disingenuous. But then again, I've already covered why people are touting that party line.

Edit Reason: I can has grammars. their != there
[/quote]

So you want Polaris to close the front with GOD and MK's other allies in favor of helping you with your front? Sorry if I'm reading that incorrectly.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1265686515' post='2169656']
So you want Polaris to close the front with GOD and MK's other allies in favor of helping you with your front? Sorry if I'm reading that incorrectly.
[/quote]

Well of course they do. Is this supposed to be some kind of grand revelation?

[Moridin]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1265686515' post='2169656']
So you want Polaris to close the front with GOD and MK's other allies in favor of helping you with your front? Sorry if I'm reading that incorrectly.
[/quote]

Oh my [i]god[/i]! MK wants its allies to be fighting purely on its side! They are just [i]so[/i] manipulative!

[The AUT]

[quote name='Moridin' date='09 February 2010 - 04:14 AM' timestamp='1265688861' post='2169738']
Oh my [i]god[/i]! MK wants its allies to be fighting purely on its side! They are just [i]so[/i] manipulative!
[/quote]

Heh, so what of Polaris' allies in NSO? Does this mean Polaris must now choose its allies in MK over those in NSO? Will Grub let them? My [i]god[/i] two sides to every coin? How unfathomable!

[Moridin]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1265690854' post='2169803']
Heh, so what of Polaris' allies in NSO? Does this mean Polaris must now choose its allies in MK over those in NSO? Will Grub let them? My [i]god[/i] two sides to every coin? How unfathomable!
[/quote]

...what? You were outraged that MK wanted Polar to side with them. It's still Polar's call, but are you really surprised that MK wanted Polar to choose their side over NSO's side?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='The AUT' date='09 February 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1265686515' post='2169656']
So you want Polaris to close the front with GOD and MK's other allies in favor of helping you with your front? Sorry if I'm reading that incorrectly.
[/quote]

You most certainly are. I believe Archon is saying that we would like to see a front that involves close friends of ours fighting each other to stop. Nowhere does it say anything about them helping us with out front, you implied that.

Does that help?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='The AUT' date='09 February 2010 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1265690854' post='2169803']
Heh, so what of Polaris' allies in NSO? Does this mean Polaris must now choose its allies in MK over those in NSO? Will Grub let them? My [i]god[/i] two sides to every coin? How unfathomable!
[/quote]
what the $%&@ are you talking about?

Are you really as dense as this post implies?

[Archon]

Tamerlane hit the nail on the head. While Moridin is correct (as usual), the principle reason behind wanting to close out the NSO front, and behind what has motivated most of MK's political action in this recent calamity, is that we're not overly fond of our allies and friends fighting each other. It makes us sad, it puts us in an awkward situation, and it undermines our general desire for our friends to like each other. But I would be dishonest if I did not also acknowledge what Moridin has said as true.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='der_ko' date='07 February 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1265584193' post='2167581']
Alliance Name: Mushroom Kingdom
Members: 180
Anarchy: 131
Peace: 39

Indeed, how dumb of you.
[/quote]

i noticed that so no i am not dumb. much like i also noticed that Polaris is being hit by several alliances just like MK is and yet despite having 194 anarchies out of 287 war mode nations (52 nations have moved from peace mode into war mode since i posted the stats yesterday) they have 3 times as many wars (off/def from yesterdays stats as i cannot get all the wars currently) with only slightly more than twice as many war mode nations. not to mention, other than GOD i am not 100% sure but believe that none of the alliances hitting Polaris are attacking any other alliances or being hit by anyone else. unlike MK whose primary attackers declared on 7 alliances and have since been hit by multiple other alliances.

so yes, you can state that MK cannot give military support but do you honestly think that Polaris was in any way shape or form actually capable of hitting TOP? yet they did. at least Polaris, knowing that A) MK is hurting and B) non-chaining clause never asked for military aid in return. while MK was directly hit, TOP, IRON, TORN, and DAWN are pretty well covered, add that to Polaris's own situation does not make it actually seem that MK and GR really give a damn about Polaris.

you can cover it all up as pretty as you want with the whole working on peace bit, but i doubt Polaris is gonna leave until NSO gets peace (as that was the reason for hitting GOD in the first place) and it seems that MK/CnG do not want to give TOP peace until TOP is decimated.

so is MK working on getting NSO peace? if so, i will cease my arguments.

[quote name='lebubu' date='07 February 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1265584688' post='2167597']
Despite not enjoying the best of relations in the past weeks, MK is grateful for NpO's assistance and will do everything in its power to assist Polaris in its predicament. As has been stated by comrade der ko, military help is out of the question due to the obvious limitations, but we will lend our support on other fronts.

I guess we'll just have to put up with dochartaigh and the like's drivel until the fruits of our labour show, eh.
[/quote]

yes, drivel... just because you don't like it does not make what i stated any less true. fact is, Polaris was hurting as much as MK was and hitting TOP is only going to hurt Polaris more. to state otherwise is drivel. diplomacy is wonderful but as stated, i doubt Polaris is gonna leave until NSO gets peace and MK does not seem to want peace with TOP. thus, unless MK is working on getting NSO peace as well, Polaris is gonna be stuck in this war fighting alliances who are mainly focusing on them (far more than what MK is stating they are being focused on by TOP) and now Polaris is gonna have to hit TOP nations to boot.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='08 February 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1265695558' post='2170106']
so yes, you can state that MK cannot give military support but do you honestly think that Polaris was in any way shape or form actually capable of hitting TOP? yet they did. at least Polaris, knowing that A) MK is hurting and B) non-chaining clause never asked for military aid in return. [/quote]

The non chaining clause does not apply to the MK situation, as they were attacked without provocation by TOP and Duckroll - they did not get involved through outside treaties, so MK was perfectly within their rights to request help. Of course, if I was running Polar I'd have told them to go @#&^ themselves, but then again I would speculate that MK wouldn't have asked Grub for assistance if Grub hadn't already wanted to help.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Moridin' date='09 February 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1265696097' post='2170125']
The non chaining clause does not apply to the MK situation, as they were attacked without provocation by TOP and Duckroll - they did not get involved through outside treaties, so MK was perfectly within their rights to request help. Of course, if I was running Polar I'd have told them to go @#&^ themselves, but then again I would speculate that MK wouldn't have asked Grub for assistance if Grub hadn't already wanted to help.
[/quote]

Mori- i understand the non-chaining clause argument being used by MK as 1 of 2 reasons why they cannot declare war on any of hte alliances hitting Polaris.

i also know why they asked for help. the issue i am getting at is that Polaris was not in any real way capable of helping them out due to their own wars. MK most likely did look at the stats, said "$%&@ it" and asked anyways. regardless of whether Grub flat out stated "I want to declare on TOP to help out MK", MK could have easily said, "dude, look at the !@#$ Polaris is going through, we cannot possibly ask that of a friend." yet they went with, "awesome, get on it Grub. declare on TOP and stretch your alliance, its reputation, and relations with your other allies even more thin than it already is. we would just love it."

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='08 February 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1265662096' post='2169037']
Polar came into this war via treaties? I thought it started it
[/quote]

Polar started it, ended their involvement in it, and then re-entered it via treaties.

At least I think that's what happened. I quit trying to wrap my head around this whole mess awhile ago.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Venizelos' date='06 February 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1265479321' post='2164781']
considering that MK has lost about 2 MILLION NS, caused by an attack NpO not only knew about but also approved, i'd say the odds of us trying to find nations not in nuclear anarchy to help them with their war is extremely unlikely.
[/quote]

Funny, by that line of reasoning MK shouldn't have even asked Polar to help them out with TOP.