Buds The Man Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I am sorry but this has to be said.. QFT. I am surprised it took someone this long.. I remember someone mentioning that we were going to make a list of all the alliances that have done the exact same thing ODN has, but yet they are applauded for it when we were criticized. OH CRY me a river they have done it once you have done it how many times. If you want to let the past go then quit bringing it up. This war over all should have never made it too this point. All i hear from ODN these days is the smack of your lips on Athens johnson and the fondeling of CnG as a whole. Shut up and do what you know you have to and that Stigma will be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x Tela x Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yeah, everyone knows that FoA asked for NpO's help. Context? Reading comprehension? I did not even insinuate that FoA asked for NpO's help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I've always, and still do have a lot of respect for NEW and still do, because you have been loyal to your allies, and a fierce fighting alliance, but this decision diminishes that reputation. When we sign treaties we give our word that we will follow them. If those treaties conflict it is understandable. If you have problems with a CB thats understandable as well, but, when is in defense of allies due to following a signed treaty a bad CB? I hope as this war continues, and if you are asked to follow treaties, by your treaty partners, that you will reconsider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 It would appear Polaris has become infected with a horrible virus known as Treaty Deficit Disorder. As I said before, I like war because in war times you know who stand by you and who don't. Be friends and allies in the good times is so easy, be friends and allies in the bad times is all that matter. Also note that today the allies who MK insult are us, in the future, who knows? Count me down for MHA insulting Polaris please? Who are you and why should I care for MHA insults if I'm not treatined with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youwish959 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) Count me down for MHA insulting Polaris please? NEW I respect your position, the treaty web as it stands is very unforgiveable in most wars and many of us should take a step back and look at where our ties are. In this case neutrality/not defending Polaris is the best move. Polaris have as weak a CB as RoK/Athens did those couple weeks back and personally i want to see their cities burn to the ground! If you wish so dearly for our cities to burn to the ground, maybe you should help the war effort out by joining a competent alliance such as Fok or Poison Clan. I am sorry but this has to be said.. QFT. I am surprised it took someone this long.. I remember someone mentioning that we were going to make a list of all the alliances that have done the exact same thing ODN has, but yet they are applauded for it when we were criticized. The most ironic part is that so many of them come from your 'friends' in CnG. Edited January 25, 2010 by youwish959 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 so you just announced that you would dishonor your treaties and let your friends get attacked? thats pathetic. Or the fact that Polaris did this without informing its allies. I am all for "don't sign a treaty if you don't expect to fulfill your obligations, legitimate reasoning or not", but that is just me, as is the general opinion of CSN. NEW obviously sees this as differently, and I would assume that they have some backing by their treaty for this (a.k.a the whole making a MDP optional, but just making it a MDP to make it look big and mean). If they have no part of the treaty backing this, well, I honestly don't know. Less blood for the blood god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 It is that expectation that makes the bastardized version of treaties used on planet Bob so worthless. Well, it's one of the things that make them worthless, but it's high on the list. This happens every war. People run around shaking pieces of paper, arguing about who was expected to do what. A good relationship is based on communication, not blind expectations. I like you. While I personally find treaties to be useful in many cases, I think people tend to use them a bit backwards. People seem to put the cart before the horse and treat their slips of paper as the source of commitment rather than a symbol of an underlying commitment that exists treaty or no. Of course, we've had different experiences, and I can definitely see why you might decide to forsake treaties altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehChron Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 OH CRY me a river they have done it once you have done it how many times. If you want to let the past go then quit bringing it up. This war over all should have never made it too this point. All i hear from ODN these days is the smack of your lips on Athens johnson and the fondeling of CnG as a whole. Shut up and do what you know you have to and that Stigma will be gone. Get off your $@! and apply that stigma to NEW too, then. Hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutterbug Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 If you wish so dearly for our cities to burn to the ground, maybe you should help the war effort out by joining a competent alliance such as Fok or Poison Clan. The most ironic part is that so many of them come from your 'friends' in CnG. Or i could watch from the sidelines with my opinion as Grubs arrogance leads to your destruction. Works just as good for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 It is that expectation that makes the bastardized version of treaties used on planet Bob so worthless. Well, it's one of the things that make them worthless, but it's high on the list. This happens every war. People run around shaking pieces of paper, arguing about who was expected to do what. A good relationship is based on communication, not blind expectations. We are saying the same thing in different ways, if people don't like to create expectations, don't sign treaties and then when it need to be used they don't honor their word and run away of they obligations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buds The Man Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Read my post or LORD CHRON or is that too much work for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Jag Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I'm sorta new to this, but generally speaking when you have a MDAP with another alliance aren't both alliances generally expected to cooperate in all military matters from the start? That obviously didn't happen here, and if you interpreted the treaty liberally you could make a case it was Polaris who violated things first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) This is why signing MADPs or even chanining MDPs is silly, unless you're prepared to follow them no matter what the circumstances are. Edited January 25, 2010 by Kindom of Goon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 It is that expectation that makes the bastardized version of treaties used on planet Bob so worthless. Well, it's one of the things that make them worthless, but it's high on the list. This happens every war. People run around shaking pieces of paper, arguing about who was expected to do what. A good relationship is based on communication, not blind expectations. When you sign a treaty you are giving the word of your alliance that you will defend each other. If you renege on these agreements your alliance is no longer trustworthy. If they can break their word once (or on a massive scale like this) they can do it again. They are not simply treaties but the word of honour of an alliance and while it might be a flashy thing in peace time when war time comes around they will probably remember they have obligations that have to be honoured. That thing they signed and hung up on the wall is more than a pretty picture to show the neighbours and when they are shredded in wartime its the credibility of the alliance that is shredded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 While I hold NEW in the highest regards and consider them quite good friends to VA, I don't necessarily agree with this stance. You have many longstanding friends and allies who you will be letting down should you continue on this path. They are in no way responsible for Polar's actions or decisions, but you're not being required to fight for them. You're being required/asked to assist your allies. I've never known NEW to shy away from any battle for any reason in its history. To do so now is quite disappointing. I still hold NEW and her members as friends, but I just don't agree nor understand your choices now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youwish959 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Or i could watch from the sidelines with my opinion as Grubs arrogance leads to your destruction. Works just as good for me. The entire world could not destroy polaris, these jokers surely cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 One more post of MK insulting us. Thanks. Detlev insults everything that moves, and even most things that don't. I honestly can't think of a single alliance he likes other than FAN. OH CRY me a river they have done it once you have done it how many times. If you want to let the past go then quit bringing it up. This war over all should have never made it too this point. All i hear from ODN these days is the smack of your lips on Athens johnson and the fondeling of CnG as a whole. Shut up and do what you know you have to and that Stigma will be gone. ODN was ready to roll in WWE and I've haven't seen a treaty cancellation this go around. Maybe you're just ignoring what's right in front of your eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sometimes, it is wise to sit back and observe as an irresistible force collides with an unmovable object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Considering all the crap you've said about the ODN, you are full of !@#$. Get out. Seriously, you shameless hypocrite. What the hell are you talking about? I haven't said I support or do not support NEW's position here, I simply pointed out NpO is losing support, don't let that hate dull your senses, its unbecoming of a Sith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buds The Man Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Detlev insults everything that moves, and even most things that don't. I honestly can't think of a single alliance he likes other than FAN. ODN was ready to roll in WWE and I've haven't seen a treaty cancellation this go around. Maybe you're just ignoring what's right in front of your eyes. Or maybe im saying quit crying about the past and continue on with what you said you were doing instead of crying everytime something comes up. Thats why the last line is there. Shut up and do what you know you have to and that Stigma will be gone. Never did i say they wouldnt just said they need to stop crying about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huang Ti Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Bleh, thought NEW had different principles. Even a cancellation (several actually) would have been more acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) Kzoppistan, if treaties were not built on stone, then that is only because they are the optional kind. the ones that obligate defense or aggression are well mandatory and thus, the groundwork they are laid upon is stone. This is just pathetic, i have never agreed that an alliance should ever back out of a treaty they signed. if they want that option then sign only optional treaties. if you wish to treat those optional treaties as if they are mandatory 99% of the time, then great. you still will have the leeway should that 1% chance you don't wish to honor the option should it come up. frankly, those who honored their treaties with \m/ and with PC are doing what they should. PC from what i heard, asked their allies to stay out of this war and yet they entered. hell i don't even like Stickmen at all but in this war, they are far better than NEW. You again? Listen, I don't necessarily agree with their decision, Zenith always honors her treaties and looks at the relationship afterward, but I'm also the type that considers the relationship between two parties to be greater than the paper between them. If I asked a close friend for help with something and they told me, "look, I would really like to help you, but I cannot in this instance here, it is against my principles." Then I would probably understand. I wouldn't be happy about it, and it would probably change the lever of friendship I had with them, but I wouldn't stop considering them a friend and start bashing them where ever I went. Would you? Of course not. Sometimes, situations are beyond what was envisioned when the treaty was signed. To say: "You are either fighting by my side, or you are my enemy" is to needlessly alienate a group who may actually come to your aid in a different situation. If they are truly against the actions that kicked off this war, then guaranteeing their neutrality is the best thing one could ask for in this situation. Edited January 25, 2010 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Detlev insults everything that moves, and even most things that don't. I honestly can't think of a single alliance he likes other than FAN. Not even MK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpol777 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 We are saying the same thing in different ways, if people don't like to create expectations, don't sign treaties and then when it need to be used they don't honor their word and run away of they obligations. When you sign a treaty you are giving the word of your alliance that you will defend each other. If you renege on these agreements your alliance is no longer trustworthy. If they can break their word once (or on a massive scale like this) they can do it again. They are not simply treaties but the word of honour of an alliance and while it might be a flashy thing in peace time when war time comes around they will probably remember they have obligations that have to be honoured. That thing they signed and hung up on the wall is more than a pretty picture to show the neighbours and when they are shredded in wartime its the credibility of the alliance that is shredded. That sword cuts both ways. A treaty is meant to be an affirmation of a relationship. Even if the wording does not include a clause on communication or information sharing, those things are inherent if only by the application of common sense. If one signatory has the expectation that the other should join in an action, then the other signatory has a reasonable expectation to not only be informed of that action, but have some input on the matter. I'm not just pulling this out of my $@!, but from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabonnobar Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 You know very well that NEW has always been a formidable ally to their friends (TPF, FEAR and co). They have always been strong and good fighters and didn't start wars themselves but always were there to defend their friends. The latest examples were the Karma war and the Coincidental war. I actually do know that very well. I said I did and do like+love them. Which makes this sadder/more difficult for me. I still count them as friends. That doesn't mean I can't be a little disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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