My opinion on the war, the CB, and assorted other things.

[bros]

Actually, that is exactly what was said.

No, TPF just didn't want to get terms until NPO had received terms. I remember that explicitly

Well first I said in my post that it was a personal opinion. You'd have to ask the government about that . It would be an act of war, clearly, and with any half-way decent alliance it would fail, but I would not press for never giving terms to the alliance in question, which makes it forgivable, if not 'okay'.

I haven't seen any posts by Athens saying that TPF will never get terms.

Its quite easy if you're a hypocrite.

Planing to use a Trojan alliance in time of war, but never doing so = WAR!

(TPF allegations of spying!)

Actually having one of your government leaders as a spy and saboteur in several major alliances over the course of a year = nothing to it.

(NATO/IRON/TOP catches spy!)

An eye for an eye and planet Bob goes blind.

I do not see how that is proof of anything. RoK =/= Athens, last I checked.

[Bob Janova]

I haven't seen any posts by Athens saying that TPF will never get terms.

Considering the infraction was during a war for which TPF has already got terms, and Athens have started a new war over it, they clearly feel that it overrides the terms that were already agreed to. Effectively they're treating it as if it happened in peacetime. And of course they will give terms, they don't want to fight the defensive coalition and they especially don't want to fight a never-ending war with it.

I do not see how that is proof of anything. RoK =/= Athens, last I checked.

RoK are also a primary belligerent who attacked TPF with the same CB.

[joracy]

Its quite easy if you're a hypocrite.

Planing to use a Trojan alliance in time of war, but never doing so = WAR!

(TPF allegations of spying!)

Actually having one of your government leaders as a spy and saboteur in several major alliances over the course of a year = nothing to it.

(NATO/IRON/TOP catches spy!)

An eye for an eye and planet Bob goes blind.

NATO counts as several major alliances now? Good work guys!

[Haflinger]

I doubt he still held the high gov access, so he was just a simple advisor. Judging from what was said by RoK gov in the topic, he never even mentioned his having multis

Bros, read my posts again.

While rishnokof was Ragnarok government, President Magee was ISCO Council President.

[bros]

Considering the infraction was during a war for which TPF has already got terms, and Athens have started a new war over it, they clearly feel that it overrides the terms that were already agreed to. Effectively they're treating it as if it happened in peacetime. And of course they will give terms, they don't want to fight the defensive coalition and they especially don't want to fight a never-ending war with it.

RoK are also a primary belligerent who attacked TPF with the same CB.

Reread the original post. Athens was not aware of the spying during the last war. They found out about it just the other day.

So if one alliance spies on another during a war, then the alliance that initiated the spying (even if they received no information) gets peace, they are absolved of all guilt?

Bros, read my posts again.

While rishnokof was Ragnarok government, President Magee was ISCO Council President.

Ahhhh. You are saying that rishnokof could've been leading whatever alliance he infiltrated with RoKs interests in mind?

[ChairmanHal]

Bros, read my posts again.

While rishnokof was Ragnarok government, President Magee was ISCO Council President.

Beyond that, Advisors at Rok have access to the lower portion of the government section of the forums (IIRC there were 4 levels total, though that might have changed with Hoo's return), but most importantly they are highly influential members of the Rok community with access to top leadership non-advisors may not have. Saying they are mere "peons" with an honorary title or whatever would be to grossly understate their status.

[bros]

Beyond that, Advisors at Rok have access to the lower portion of the government section of the forums (IIRC there were 4 levels total, though that might have changed with Hoo's return), but most importantly they are highly influential members of the Rok community with access to top leadership non-advisors may not have. Saying they are mere "peons" with an honorary title or whatever would be to grossly understate their status.

It sounds like they are what their name is, they advise. They just offer advice on decisions

[Haflinger]

Ahhhh. You are saying that rishnokof could've been leading whatever alliance he infiltrated with RoKs interests in mind?

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.

Actually it was an alliance he had founded. President Magee created ISCO.

[zzzptm]

Well, ISCO was a microalliance that later merged into the RoK protectorate, ARES.

Hard to see how it could be run for anyone's interests... it was a microalliance...

[Bob Janova]

So if one alliance spies on another during a war, then the alliance that initiated the spying (even if they received no information) gets peace, they are absolved of all guilt?

I wouldn't put it quite so strongly, but for the purposes of this conversation: yes. That is the primary argument against this war, so don't sound so surprised .

[Californian]

Apples and Oranges.

You are all missing the point here,

TPF attempted to spy WITH THE GOVERNMENT KNOWING AND APPROVING.

Rishnokof attempted to spy WITHOUT THE ROK GOVERNMENT KNOWING

[Kahnite]

Apples and Oranges.

You are all missing the point here,

TPF proposed to spy WITH THE GOVERNMENT KNOWING AND APPROVING.

Rishnokof did spy WITHOUT THE ROK GOVERNMENT KNOWING (... or did they? Can't say what is not known.)

Correction:

Lets keep it truthful now.

[bros]

I wouldn't put it quite so strongly, but for the purposes of this conversation: yes. That is the primary argument against this war, so don't sound so surprised .

That does not make much sense when you think about it. The Karma war was not started over TPF spying on Athens (Who TPF wasn't even at war with during the karma war)

Correction:

Lets keep it truthful now.

Proposing has been equivocal to actually succeeding in the past.

Oh, and to quote Londo:

"Because if we had tried to talk it out with TPF, mhawk would have eqivocated and denied everything"

Edited January 2, 2010 by bros2

[wickedj]

i did say "one may argue". though truth be told... they did some nasty !@#$... too nasty even

edit:

from the convos i read, the story went like this: first TPF didn't want to get peace until NPO got peace. after NPO received peace, there were some issues with PC... partly i think because they were some sort of allies?? (i'm not sure) before the war and partly because of the reps they were asking. so don't try to merge them into a single event.

anyway, are you here just to "baaaaaaaaaaaaaaw" or do you actually have something intelligent to say??

Granted i dont have the writing skills of one Schattenman but that has no bearing on this conversation. Do you have something intelligent to say or can you merely go "hurf durf" as we've seen from all of IRON this week

[Lord Brendan]

Bros, read my posts again.

While rishnokof was Ragnarok government, President Magee was ISCO Council President.

You are once again mistaken. President Magee joined Ragnarok sometime before November 3rd 2008 and remained there for the entire time Rish was a Triumvir.

For reference:

November 3rd, 2008 - President Magee joins Ragnarok

Dec 27th, 2008 - Rishnokof becomes a Triumvir

[bros]

So how about all of those declarations?

[Fort Pitt]

Last war we had Karma, this war we should be something that actually makes sense. Like... I dunno. One of you wordy people should think of a name for each side in the Blue Balls War

TPF and allies: The Constipated Coalition.

Athens and allies: The <insert laxative brand here> Coalition.

[bros]

TPF and allies: The Constipated Coalition.

Athens and allies: The <insert laxative brand here> Coalition.

why not preparation H brigade

those names are not very inventive

[Fort Pitt]

It did take a long time for TPF's allies to get moving...

[Prime minister Johns]

TPF planned to spy WITH THE GOVERNMENT KNOWING AND APPROVING.

Rishnokof actually spied WITHOUT (?) THE ROK GOVERNMENT KNOWING

One was a plan and was never implemented.

And the other was a real action that actually took place.

You can't punish someone for thinking something then reconsidering that action and never doing it as if they actually did it.

If this was the case we would all be guilty 100's of times for all the split seconds we have considered doing something rash, but then realised how stupid it would be and stopped.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Sigrun Vapneir]

TPF planned to spy WITH THE GOVERNMENT KNOWING AND APPROVING.

They did more than plan it. ZH exists. The protectorate with Athens happened while they were still in contact.

Rishnokof actually spied WITHOUT (?) THE ROK GOVERNMENT KNOWING

Proof? Even suggestive evidence? I havent seen any. Magee made 9 posts on NATO boards iirc, 7 having to do with academy training. Not only did he apparently not have any access there, it doesnt sound like he tried in any way to get any access there. And there's no evidence he told anyone in RoK anything prior during or after any of this.

C'mon Johns, I remember you, and you arent this dumb.

[wickedj]

It did take a long time for TPF's allies to get moving...

Yeah well they had to wait for their fearless leader to come up with this epic plan..that the whole world knew about a few hours later

[bros]

It did take a long time for TPF's allies to get moving...

And they attacked after white peace was agreed to

TPF planned to spy WITH THE GOVERNMENT KNOWING AND APPROVING.

Rishnokof actually spied WITHOUT (?) THE ROK GOVERNMENT KNOWING

One was a plan and was never implemented.

And the other was a real action that actually took place.

You can't punish someone for thinking something then reconsidering that action and never doing it as if they actually did it.

If this was the case we would all be guilty 100's of times for all the split seconds we have considered doing something rash, but then realised how stupid it would be and stopped.

UBD tried to spy on MK. They even had someone apply. They were caught. They failed. That is basically what TPF did. They initiated the spying on Athens, but never followed through.

[Bob Janova]

That does not make much sense when you think about it. The Karma war was not started over TPF spying on Athens

It wasn't started over NPO nuking VE either, but that didn't stop NPO getting peace after nuking VE, and not being rolled for nuking VE 6 months later. Or if you're going to play the 'but that's out in the open' card, it wasn't started over IRON spying away Ragnarok's nukes, but that didn't stop it from happening or IRON from getting peace. Acts of war committed during a war are not then later used for a CB to open a new war – except in this case by Athens, RoK and GOD.

[bros]

It wasn't started over NPO nuking VE either, but that didn't stop NPO getting peace after nuking VE, and not being rolled for nuking VE 6 months later. Or if you're going to play the 'but that's out in the open' card, it wasn't started over IRON spying away Ragnarok's nukes, but that didn't stop it from happening or IRON from getting peace. Acts of war committed during a war are not then later used for a CB to open a new war – except in this case by Athens, RoK and GOD.

Using a legitimate in game tactic is totally different from spying on another alliances forums.