My opinion on the war, the CB, and assorted other things.

[Qaianna]

Rok didn't admit to spying. They said a member had a multi, but that they only found out after the fact, at which point they banned him.

That's why Van Hoo III said, and I meant to convey, that this was IF it happens, and not an actual accusation of it here. The gist of the original reply I referred to was him saying that IF something like that happenned, he'd understand it better.

[wickedj]

best thread of the war thus far, when do we start handing out awards?

[Fyfe XIV]

who the hell are you

No idea but he applied to Athens in all caps >_>

[Starcraftmazter]

1.7 lbs of cake.

Three bites

That's a hell of a lot of calories.

[deSouza]

That's a hell of a lot of calories.

Probably means he should work out more instead of being an anorexic little *%&^%

Edited January 1, 2010 by deSouza

[Opethian]

Bros opinion is important and deserves its own thread. No. Really.

I have to say I find the CB to be a bit flimsy, but this game has proven again and again that waiting around for a solid CB makes Cybernations a terribly boring place.

If we wait for the dramas to come to us we would soon find ourselves quite bored. Hell, part of the FUN of this game is the generally obscure nature of the CBs surrounding major wars. But I suppose that's getting a bit to "meta-game" for those that spend their time role playing.

[HalfEmpty]

TL;DR :

Hi, I'm some guy with a weird voice and I have AN OPINION.

it doesn't matter, and no one will read it, BUT I STILL SAID IT

OH YEAH, CUZ I'M IMPORTANT.

or something

(insert humorous picture to make up for my lack of importance)

The cycle is complete Little_EM_Space making friends the old fashioned way.

Interesting and delightful read as per usual Bros.

However your line-art lacks depth. Prespecktive and shadows, you need dem.

Edit or additionality:

Bros opinion is important and deserves its own thread. No. Really.

Indeed you are correct. I assume of course you're currently speaking as a memeber of PPF and not gov?

If so I await the official PPF view on the recent unpleasantness and demand a seperate thread that they may not hide in the mainbody of curbstompery.

Edited January 1, 2010 by HalfEmpty

[The Eye]

This is pretty much all IC, moving to WA

[Haflinger]

Rok didn't admit to spying. They said a member had a multi, but that they only found out after the fact, at which point they banned him.

A former high government member, who while being in government had a multi controlling another alliance.

[Sephiroth]

The CB used against TPF wasn't good and did make those attacking look hypocritical as they also have former gov who had made the same mistakes in the past they attack TPF for. Now the other side can jump in on any CB they want without looking bad.

[scythegfx]

The whining over the CB is pretty unjustified in itself. Any alliance worth its pixels would have done the same thing if given concrete evidence that another alliance had planted spies in its ranks. The post declaration posturing done by the "other side" in this blue, blue war, is nothing more than an attempt to discredit Athens/RoK/GOD/\m/ and damage their PR, much like what what was done in the noCB war. The slight difference here is that we actually did have a valid CB that as i said before, any Alliance, be it NPO, invicta, TOP, or whoever, would run with. The fact that the logs were leaked by Zero Hour in order to get back at mhawk and TPF does not Change the fact that they happened.

As for the whining being done by certain BAPS members amongst others about Athens and RoK bringing in 6 times the NS of TPF to fight them...well...That's how you fight a war. Plain and Simple, NPO did it, invicta did it in the illuminati War, invicta Faced 6 alliances in the Karma war, the truth is...The best way to win a war...is by outnumbering and out gunning your opponents, War Decs 101, tbqh.

[Alterego]

Any propaganda coming out of MK by someone of your stature is official regardless of what you claim, MK are a propaganda making machine and you are a very experienced MK propaganda master. Distancing yourself from the evil Londo seems to be the agenda.

edit: I think its time to stop calling yourselves the most unified bloc when its obvious there have been major issues and power struggles within C&G since the Karma war. Even stumpy says he will do what he likes C&G be damned, acting unilaterally seems to be a recurring problem amongst the C&G MADP bloc power junkies.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Alterego

[scythegfx]

Any propaganda coming out of MK by someone of your stature is official regardless of what you claim, MK are a propaganda making machine and you are a very experienced MK propaganda master. Distancing yourself from the evil Londo seems to be the agenda.

What are you talking about? i've only been in MK for like 2 months...surely you knew this. Unless you weren't talking to me, in which case i ask that you kindly quote the person you're talking to next time, as it helps to alleviate any confusion.

Thanks Alter ^.^

[AirMe]

What are you talking about? i've only been in MK for like 2 months...surely you knew this. Unless you weren't talking to me, in which case i ask that you kindly quote the person you're talking to next time, as it helps to alleviate any confusion.

Thanks Alter ^.^

He is mocking Bros for making a hilarious post and insinuating that we are all evil. Don't mind him, just move along. It is better for your mental sanity that way. No one is allowed to have any fun while there are pixels supposedly being oppressed by supposed evil overlords. Plus everyone affiliated with said supposed evil overlords isn't allowed to have an opinion of their own because if they did, well that's just propaganda.

Edited January 1, 2010 by AirMe

[Alterego]

What are you talking about? i've only been in MK for like 2 months...surely you knew this. Unless you weren't talking to me, in which case i ask that you kindly quote the person you're talking to next time, as it helps to alleviate any confusion.

Thanks Alter ^.^

I was talking about Bros2, sorry for the confusion.

[Alterego]

He is mocking Bros for making a hilarious post and insinuating that we are all evil.

Not all, Just Athens. MK and Co seem to have been dragged into this by Athens just like they were dragged into the KoN situation.

[scythegfx]

I was talking about Bros2, sorry for the confusion.

No problem, i thought you had forgotten my tenure in purple already

[Stumpy Jung Il]

edit: I think its time to stop calling yourselves the most unified bloc when its obvious there have been major issues and power struggles within C&G since the Karma war. Even stumpy says he will do what he likes C&G be damned, acting unilaterally seems to be a recurring problem amongst the C&G MADP bloc power junkies.

That post was a joke. I cannot believe anyone would take that seriously after reading it.

[bros]

Okay, good morning everyone. Time to start responding

Frank, honest, to the point and no undue rigamaroll

Very good read and a unique perspective

Groovy

Most of the objections are in two camps:

One, that the Phoenix Federation's efforts were done during its war.

Two, that Athens's response was immediate aggression without discussion.

Ragnarok, in another spy-related thread, had acknowledged that were they as an alliance to be found guilty of spying, they would understand an immediate, no-negotiations attack; at least in this they say they are consistent. (I personally would find it hard to actually practice that myself.) I think others, especially those who are derided for actually liking to grow nations, prefer to settle issues with a minimum of bloodshed, even if they do have an 'airtight' casus belli. Remember, war is NOT a universally liked thing.

EDIT: Um, when a smaller alliance seems to be a troublemaker and sheltered under a powerful bloc, it can get a reputation for being a puppet of the more notable face of the bloc. Trust me on this

Point #1 Spying during a war doesn't make it not spying.

Point #2 is valid.

In the RoK thread, they had a rogue member who held the lowest position in government (something akin to the Ombudsmen in MK from what I gathered from a quick glance over the topic). An immediate response tends to be hard on a holiday. a 72 hour deadline is better around a holiday imo.

And you're GGA. Calling GGA a puppet has been a tradition since PC left.

Bros, you're cool and all but:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77228

I mean, this whole multiple thread situation is getting ridiculous.

A good read nonetheless.

I was thinking about posting something in there but then posting my own topic is easier and people would've been like "hey bros what is your opinion" and then I would've had to dig out the link to the post instead of the topic

It most certainly has.

Well as I said in the topic, I posted this when I was rather tired last night. That is when my brain tends to formulate thoughts the best. I basically mean that spying has always meant SOMETHING. It's always been a no-no.

No idea but he applied to Athens in all caps >_>

he sounds like a real winner

This is pretty much all IC, moving to WA

Okay. I wasn't sure so I played it on the safe side

A former high government member, who while being in government had a multi controlling another alliance.

I doubt he still held the high gov access, so he was just a simple advisor. Judging from what was said by RoK gov in the topic, he never even mentioned his having multis

The CB used against TPF wasn't good and did make those attacking look hypocritical as they also have former gov who had made the same mistakes in the past they attack TPF for. Now the other side can jump in on any CB they want without looking bad.

How did the government of Athens make the same mistake in the past of spying?

Also, the other side is not even fully defined yet, because one side has to attack first for the sides to be cemented. Hell, it could just be a stalemate of us staring at each other all purdy like for a few weeks while athens pounds TPF.

Any propaganda coming out of MK by someone of your stature is official regardless of what you claim, MK are a propaganda making machine and you are a very experienced MK propaganda master. Distancing yourself from the evil Londo seems to be the agenda.

edit: I think its time to stop calling yourselves the most unified bloc when its obvious there have been major issues and power struggles within C&G since the Karma war. Even stumpy says he will do what he likes C&G be damned, acting unilaterally seems to be a recurring problem amongst the C&G MADP bloc power junkies.

MK is experienced at making propaganda.

I wouldn't use the words "very experienced propaganda master" to describe myself. Just because I make a few pictures each war and I DJ on the radio every weekend does not a propaganda master make. Hell, I barely even discuss CN on the radio.

The only major issue is Londo basically jumping in front of gun barrels without telling anyone or only giving them a very short amount of prior warning

He is mocking Bros for making a hilarious post and insinuating that we are all evil. Don't mind him, just move along. It is better for your mental sanity that way. No one is allowed to have any fun while there are pixels supposedly being oppressed by supposed evil overlords. Plus everyone affiliated with said supposed evil overlords isn't allowed to have an opinion of their own because if they did, well that's just propaganda.

MK isn't like NPO. We don't even own a boot.

Not even a boot named Jack.

[Stormsend]

Hey, bros. Cool thread. Where is the punch?

[AirMe]

Hey, bros. Cool thread. Where is the punch?

Next to the pie.

[Stormsend]

That post was a joke. I cannot believe anyone would take that seriously after reading it.

Next to the pie.

But... but he... he said there is... is no... pie...

[bros]

Hey, bros. Cool thread. Where is the punch?

Airme has a special punch dispenser.

[OneBallMan]

Well, until this war, I think there was no collective community opinion on whether setting up a spy ring during wartime was espionage or an act of war. I think that for now, the verdict is pretty clear, that it is considered clear and unequivocal espionage. Morality is a malleable concept, but the precedent is pretty clearly established. Personally, under the category of "I was there", I view it as an act of war, and one that ended with our surrender. But it has taken me a few days to come to that conclusion, demonstrating the fact that I can see the other side clearly.

I also have no problem with the direct attack, w/o diplomatic parlez, if there is a belief that it was espionage and not an act of war. Of course, that will also be the precendent, and no doubt TPF's relative weakness to our attackers played a huge part in that. Next time around, where things are worked out diplomatically, the hue and cry to the cowardice of the aggrieved should be directly proportional to the delta between the parties' military strength.

So, if espionage is espionage, and it is a moral absolute, then the waffling on the RoK situation is one I find most challenging. If espionage is only espionage when there is undeniable proof that the top leadership (i.e. the headest of honchos knew) then that will present new challenges going forward for the righteousness of the cause of an attacking party. The burden of righteousness has been altered here, imho, and it is out of the political and military expediency that RoK is being defended, not the absolute truth that a member of their gov, low or high, spied and/or muckraked.

[ChairmanHal]

Well, until this war, I think there was no collective community opinion on whether setting up a spy ring during wartime was espionage or an act of war. I think that for now, the verdict is pretty clear, that it is considered clear and unequivocal espionage. Morality is a malleable concept, but the precedent is pretty clearly established. Personally, under the category of "I was there", I view it as an act of war, and one that ended with our surrender. But it has taken me a few days to come to that conclusion, demonstrating the fact that I can see the other side clearly.

I also have no problem with the direct attack, w/o diplomatic parlez, if there is a belief that it was espionage and not an act of war. Of course, that will also be the precendent, and no doubt TPF's relative weakness to our attackers played a huge part in that. Next time around, where things are worked out diplomatically, the hue and cry to the cowardice of the aggrieved should be directly proportional to the delta between the parties' military strength.

So, if espionage is espionage, and it is a moral absolute, then the waffling on the RoK situation is one I find most challenging. If espionage is only espionage when there is undeniable proof that the top leadership (i.e. the headest of honchos knew) then that will present new challenges going forward for the righteousness of the cause of an attacking party. The burden of righteousness has been altered here, imho, and it is out of the political and military expediency that RoK is being defended, not the absolute truth that a member of their gov, low or high, spied and/or muckraked.

The simple fact is that Rishnokof conducted clandestine activities that materially benefited Ragnarok, whether Ragnarok leadership was aware of it or not. There is solid evidence of this. Did these clandestine activities cross the line into serious espionage? Rishnokof for obvious reasons isn't talking, even if he were to talk through another party, it's doubtful we'd get the whole truth--whatever else he was, he was loyal to Rok. Speaking of the whole truth, I'm afraid we're left to draw our own conclusion. You cannot look to VanHoo III for the definitive answer as many of Rok's allies in the current war are inclined to do--if Rok government is guilty of knowing how any intell gathered was collected, for both IC and OOC reasons Hoo would be stupid to be forthcoming.

As for the TPF situation and any parallels...quite simply, TPF did not gain materially or in any other way from the aborted covert operation. Yet, many of the same people insisting that we take VanHoo III's word regarding Rok's non-involvement in espionage have found TPF guilty and are enacting punishment without one word of explanation from TPF and are quick to find TPF guilty once again when TPF tries to offer an explanation after the fact.

Frankly, it doesn't pass the smell test. Not at all.