Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[King Srqt]

We have all talked about going rogue at some point.

some of us have even followed through once or twice

Would be nice if this was possible to squash all this. Instead Rish and Magee have been deleted as multis.

I know, I was being facetious, my point being that there is nothing RoK can do and this all seems kind of pointless.

[Goose]

OK, then let me try this:

You agree that this member had two accounts correct?

By your own admission one of said accounts was most likely used for spying purposes correct?

Who do you think he gave the information to, from his spying attempts his alternate account?

In addition he was a member of an alliance that declared on TPF for the threat of spying, but you dont see the hypocrisy?

If not then i guess i really dont know what to say to sway your opinion

Yes, Rish is a hypocrite.

All you've done is insinuate that RoK are hsypocrites without one ounce of proof. You continue again and again to state that this makes RoK hypocrites, and guilty of espionage. Yet, you continue to ignore the crucial leap that you make easily, but not logically. RoK did not instigate Rish into spying, nor were they aware of it. No matter how many times you say they did, it doesn't make it true and you'll sway nobody until you provide proof.

[Penkala]

We can we say anymore? That the spy is one of rok's leaders. rok spied on us. rok got caught.

Blatantly false.

[Strykewolf]

hes in peace mode its impossible

You know. I've never understood the whole 'go to peace mode and talk smack, thing' Granted, he may have been ordered to do so, it happens.

Still. Annoying.

I don't think I've used PM for myself, yet. Though I did tell a couple members that they may wish too since they are going to be gone for a week, or so. ((shrugs))

Just wondering guys:

Why did Rish join NATO if it wasn't to spy?

He probably was spying. And very likely. On. His. Own. He wouldn't be the first one to do so.

I seem to remember several threads where an alliances member spied on others, without the .gov knowing.

The tend to get kicked out, get declared rogue and hilarity ensues.

[Mr Havok]

Yes, Rish is a hypocrite.

All you've done is insinuate that RoK are hsypocrites without one ounce of proof. You continue again and again to state that this makes RoK hypocrites, and guilty of espionage. Yet, you continue to ignore the crucial leap that you make easily, but not logically. RoK did not instigate Rish into spying, nor were they aware of it. No matter how many times you say they did, it doesn't make it true and you'll sway nobody until you provide proof.

I was merely pointing out that he agreed that this guy used his 2nd account most likely to spy?

If that is the case who was he spying for? Himself?

Come on guys that doesnt make sense

[juslen]

OK, then let me try this:

You agree that this member had two accounts correct?

By your own admission one of said accounts was most likely used for spying purposes correct?

Who do you think he gave the information to, from his spying attempts his alternate account?

In addition he was a member of an alliance that declared on TPF for the threat of spying, but you dont see the hypocrisy?

If not then i guess i really dont know what to say to sway your opinion

Few people deny there were two accounts by the same person. But it has yet to be determined if Rok government knew about the spying or if any actual information was extracted and handed over to Rok government. You notice a trend here? In the end all that matters is whether or not this person was spying while a member of government and whether or not the rest of government knew he was a spy.

So far it seems he was not a member of government when he had control of the other account. And so far there has been no proof or evidence that indicated that that RoK government knew he was a spy.

Furthermore.. unless he was a member of government during the TPF declaration.. how does that make his entire alliance hypocritical? He was one member.. how did he influence the war?

Hypocrisy requires a double standard.. so far I have yet to see Rok government support or condone spying and I have yet to see Rok government support on condone one of its own members to spy.

[bill n ted]

So for 3 years he kept up two nations flawlessly and was not caught, yet just recently he very conveniently forgot how he'd done it all along and started logging in from the same computer / IP to get deleted and for you to catch him? Wow that's a rock-solid theory right there.

Indeed.

So now everyone's issue is that you can't prove that he was trying to obtain information while having his multi in another alliance? Tell me, what are some legitimate reasons for having a multi in a different alliance?

If I as an IRON member had a multi nation that I stuck in your alliance whilst being an IRON member you wouldnt have an issue as long as theres proof to the contary that I didnt leak what was on your boards? Probably comes under the scope of most alliances "dual membership" policy - if not in wording but by spirit. I guess we understand that but the majority dont.

Of course he was an illegal multi, I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that they have always been illegal multis; it's pretty clear they have not, so the claim that Rish was using this nation during his tenure as Rok Triumvir is utterly baseless.

So he was using an illegal multi which you dont dispute, they have always been illegal multis but its pretty clear they have not so Rish is totallly blameless in being busted as an illegal multi.. Got ya.

No, it's on you to prove that he always was. He cannot prove a negative.

Hes the one that got deleted.

It makes more sense than him creating a new nation because he didn't like his original one and then holding onto them for 3 years, which requires God-only-knows what kind of measures (ask Dr. Dan, maybe?) to prevent from being deleted.

Posta0 and Maccers the Great are the ones to spring to mind - not because of anything that has transpired or happened - its just something I saw in my tea leaves this morning

+------------+-----------------+-------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------+----------+--------------------------------------------------+

| Date | Ruler | Name | NID | NS | Infra | Tech | Nukes | Senority | alliance_affiliation |

+------------+-----------------+-------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------+----------+--------------------------------------------------+

| 2009-10-18 | President Magee | Masoa | 39590 | 15,841 | 3,740 | 0 | 14 | 1 | Orange Defense Network |

code]

Does that mean he tried/applied to get into ODN... Maybe worth checking your records ODN...

Secondly, this multi of Rish is older than Rok. Rok is not 1200 days old. If you were to believe Rish to be the main nation, and Pres. Magee to be the multi, then Rish was spying before Rok. If he was spying before Rok was created, then it is entirely logical to believe his intentions/desires had nothing to do with Rok, and thus Rok was kept in the dark the whole time.

Who is who is not in debate. Fact of the matter is one of the multi's was a longstanding RoK government member/adviser and the other nation was applying to get into IRON/NATO/caused problems with TOP/NSO

[Bob Janova]

If that is the case who was he spying for? Himself?

Indeed. Presumably he was bored with playing one character and thought that that would be more fun. I'd love to play two characters and I guess Rish didn't have my respect for the rules of the game.

[Jyrinx]

OK, then let me try this:

You agree that this member had two accounts correct?

Yes

By your own admission one of said accounts was most likely used for spying purposes correct?

Eventually, yes

Who do you think he gave the information to, from his spying attempts his alternate account?

I think you missed a preposition or something. Are you asking me who he turned information over to? I have no idea. I don't know if he did turn info *shrugs*

In addition he was a member of an alliance that declared on TPF for the threat of spying, but you dont see the hypocrisy?

Ah, if you're saying it's hypocritical that's one thing, but that has nothing to do with whether or not RoK spied or not.

Consider two people, person A and B.

Person A: Hey look, it's raining outside

Person B: It can't be raining. You're a moron *checks outside* Oh, it is raining. Huh

*next day*

Person B: Hey look, it's raining outside

Person A: Iit can't be raining. You're a moron.

Person B: Hey, no need to get all angry with me. Dude, don't be a !@#$%.

It can be argued that Person B is a hypocrite, but that has nothing to do with analyzing whether or not his statement is true: is it raining outside?

(sorry for the crappy analogy, first thing that popped to mind)

I will not defend RoK et al from charges of hypocrisy since that's not the point I was arguing. I was simply saying that there is lack of evidence to suggest that RoK gov spied. That's all.

If not then i guess i really dont know what to say to sway your opinion

I think we had some confusion earlier: I think you're trying to convince me that RoK is hypocritical. I'm not saying they are or aren't; I'm not taking a position on that at all.

Cheers.

[zesty]

Fabricating evidence?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Prove it.

lol

Astrum, checkmates rock-for-brains.

[Lord Brendan]

What modest gain? We have been wronged by rok. A person with in rok's leadership has been proven to be a spy and some people say that rok has nothing to do with it. Not only that but keeps on repeating why, why, why, why and turn around and ask US to prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew about this, prove rok leadership knew....and finally going rok leaders are your spy 0.o

We can we say anymore? That the spy is one of rok's leaders. rok spied on us. rok got caught.

That a member of Ragnarok's government was spying on you is blatantly false and you even admitted it in the OP.

Note that the above actions did take place after Rishnokof stepped down from his government position.

Basically the only thing that can be proved (or even reasonably assumed) is that an ex-government member of Ragnarok had a multi that he used to enter other alliances.

Let's say Heft has been spying on CSN for the past three months and we find out about it. Holding IRON accountable in any way would be utterly absurd, don't you think?

[wickedj]

I don't think anyone is. I'm certainly not. Rish is a total $@! for this and the fact that he involved you guys is disturbing to me being an ally and if you guys can prove that Hoo or other RoK gov was in on it I'll back you guys 100% but this all looks like Rish getting gifted a nation that was going to quit and going out and acting the fool on his own.

Ive been away most of the day and theres no way i can read this thread so someone feel free to correct me if what i know thus far is incorrect

Rish has a multi.

Rok gov/Hoo/anyone close to him had no idea.

Rish did some naughty things with said multi while NOT a member of Rok Gov't

Rish is gone.

Multi is gone.

somehow this equals to what mhawk did?!

Quick edit: Is there *ANY* proof that Hoo, Rok or anyone else knew this? let alone supported it?

Edited January 1, 2010 by wickedj

[heggo]

Yes, you can totally change my opinion: by showing something (screenshot, log, etc.) showing something that suggests that RoK gov knew about the incident and/or authorized it. Until then, the presumption is that he was acting on his own. It's called burden of proof being on the accuser.

That's a burden of proof that you probably already knew can't be met by anyone sans spying on RoK or a fantastic leak from RoK. Being that the job of a spy is to ensure that RoK would have the plausible deniability that would absolve them by the tightest of standards which you're supporting, I don't think it would be very reasonable to view them without extreme suspicion because of them.

While RoK obviously can't prove a negative, perhaps they could do something to lift some of the suspicion from them. Perhaps they could provide screenshots of their forum permissions so that we could see just how much access Rish had while his multi was running amok, or perhaps they could provide logs or screenshots of RoK government members discussing Rish in one way or another during that same period. They can't prove the negative, but to suppose that there's no evidence they could provide that would raise the suspicion from them is absurd. In fact, I'm rather intrigued that nobody from RoK has come forward with any such evidence yet...

[ccabal86]

Either 1) you don't know what either of those terms/words mean or 2) You haven't bothered to read anything other than the O.P.

Actually, it doesn't take a whole lot to figure out how you guys roll. Take that as you will

[Goose]

I was merely pointing out that he agreed that this guy used his 2nd account most likely to spy?

If that is the case who was he spying for? Himself?

Come on guys that doesnt make sense

Until you can show me that RoK was aware of his actions, then yes. Rish was spying on his own with no support from RoK. Doesn't mean he couldn't have passed information to RoK without them knowing the source of it, but that doesn't implicate RoK in anything.

[AirMe]

Actually, it doesn't take a whole lot to figure out how you guys roll. Take that as you will

It doesn't take a whole lot to figure out how you guys roll either. Two can play this game.

[Kzoppistan]

Rish has a multi.

Rok gov/Hoo/anyone close to him had no idea.

Rish did some naughty things with said multi while NOT a member of Rok Gov't

Rish is gone.

Multi is gone.

somehow this equals to what mhawk did?!

lol, that's the story, anyway.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Jesus The Viking]

It doesn't take a whole lot to figure out how you guys roll either. Two can play this game.

And what a sorry game it is, that no man can emerge victorious, but both fall into a bottomless pit of horrendous slander.

[bill n ted]

Rok gov/Hoo/anyone close to him had no idea.

Rish did some naughty things with said multi while NOT a member of Rok Gov't

Of course...

Point 1: you as a member of CSN would know that.

Point 2: If the multi is - or rather was as has already been pointed out in this thread older than RoK itself your second statement of fluff is totally pointless which goes to strengthen my accusation in point one

[Ivan V]

Rish was spying on his own with no support from RoK.

Do you have evidence to prove beyond all doubt that he was doing it all for his own entertainment?

Granted, there's no evidence to prove it the other way either as of yet, but I'm just saying.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Ivan V

[Jyrinx]

That's a burden of proof that you probably already knew can't be met by anyone sans spying on RoK or a fantastic leak from RoK. Being that the job of a spy is to ensure that RoK would have the plausible deniability that would absolve them by the tightest of standards which you're supporting, I don't think it would be very reasonable to view them without extreme suspicion because of them.

While RoK obviously can't prove a negative, perhaps they could do something to lift some of the suspicion from them. Perhaps they could provide screenshots of their forum permissions so that we could see just how much access Rish had while his multi was running amok, or perhaps they could provide logs or screenshots of RoK government members discussing Rish in one way or another during that same period. They can't prove the negative, but to suppose that there's no evidence they could provide that would raise the suspicion from them is absurd. In fact, I'm rather intrigued that nobody from RoK has come forward with any such evidence yet...

I guess they could do that. Try querying someone in #rok and see if they'll do that for you. Can't hurt to ask

[Believland]

What was your argument on the Dark First/NSO porno issue again?

When you put it that way it doesn't sound bad at all, no joke. I'd give a $20 donation to see that :v

I have it hard to believe that RoK never accepted one little thing of info. Whether it was war plans or not. I would be very surprised if they didn't accept anything

[wickedj]

lol, that's the story, anyway.

Well, you got something other than witty "hurrr durrrs"? cus i was rather serious with my post

Point 1: you as a member of CSN would know that.

Im sorry, i dont follow. Are you accusing CSN of spying/supporting spying?

Point 2: If the multi is - or rather was as has already been pointed out in this thread older than RoK itself your second statement of fluff is totally pointless which goes to strengthen my accusation in point one

Yeah, and my nation is over 2 years old. whats nation age got to do with proof he was spying?

Edited January 1, 2010 by wickedj

[juslen]

I was merely pointing out that he agreed that this guy used his 2nd account most likely to spy?

If that is the case who was he spying for? Himself?

Come on guys that doesnt make sense

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and just put myself in the shoes of an actual spy.

Just like any crime, if you don't want to get caught you should work alone. And at the very most work with a few select people. This is where RoK government would come in.

However.... If I personally wanted to spy, I would work alone in the most secure way. And If I happened to gain access to information I would not pass that information through any means which could be traced back to myself or anyone I was working with. Why? Because someone is almost always willing to rat someone out when the time is right.

I could easily relay screen shots, IRC logs, and almost anything without having to go "HEY GUYS! Look what I found"

I could easily obtain a secure email address and find readily available contact info to relay my messages and information. If you want to be 100% safe.. you don't even give yourself up to even your own government. Unless of course someone else hatched a plan and you were following through with it. What if it was your own plan?

And who says you weren't just messing around trying to get inside information you could use to your own benefit aka knowing when to peace out if a war was coming etc..

Some people just snoop around and gather intel just so they can go out in a blaze of glory when they finally decide to go rogue. Maybe he planned on going rogue and causing a big **** storm later down the road but instead got nailed for deletion before he could hatch his plans.

All these things do not require other people to be coordinating and barking orders or relaying info to. Geez sounds like I would make a good spy! But I am not that foolish.

[magicninja]

Of course...

Point 1: you as a member of CSN would know that.

Point 2: If the multi is - or rather was as has already been pointed out in this thread older than RoK itself your second statement of fluff is totally pointless which goes to strengthen my accusation in point one

Except that the multi was in RoK the entire time Rish was gov of RoK. So even if Rish was in control of Magee the entire time, no spying was being commited at the time Rish was gov. This is fact based on evidence provided by TOP so there is no use arguing he was gov of RoK at the time wrongdoing was going down.