The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[shahenshah]

No. It stated that they would not spy on any nations or initiate new attacks except for ghosts and/or rogues.

It clearly says nation, and has nothing to do with alliances.

..it says here:

TPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned.

I will assume white peace means no hostile actions of any kind. If your white peace means infiltration attempts are fine, then you are right. But again, does it matter in overall scheme of things? doubt it, anyway I've asked a question several times, have you any evidence to back that TPF didn't cease a god damned thing as your leader says after the terms?

Anyways, Gnite guys, gluck with the attempt to hegemonize

Edited December 27, 2009 by shahenshah

[Merrie Melodies]

Sure, though keep in mind that sedition or the serious advocation or conspiracy to violently overthrow of the government is a lesser charge than an actual rebellion or coup. In the same respect an attempted murder is much less than an actual murder. The point being, an actual case of recent spying had in the past dictated (if we are to rely on precedent like many here have said) 1) A diplomatic confrontation in which some sort of settlement is to be reached. If that fails then we go to 2. War.

In this case we had a situation of spying which was mitigated by three factors.

1. No actual spying ever took place as the plan fell apart in the middle/early stages.

2. The alliance that was 'conspiring' to spy was in a state of indefinite war with a superior enemy leaving them with few 'legitimate' tactics. The alliance targeted were more over the most vocal and obvious members of the coalition against TPF and its allies.

3. The conspiracy fell apart before the conclusion of the war, and was ended nearly six months ago.

Regardless of what side of the war you are on, the three of these factors combined add up to one conclusion:at the very least instant war without any attempt at diplomacy was simply put, an inappropriate response. There were a thousand other ways this could have been handled, this one was about the utter worst.

The best thing Athens could do now is call a temporary ceasefire and begin talks. If they believe they were some how wronged by TPF six months ago, then that can be expressed at the negotiating table.

With the exception of cease fire due to the obvious peacemode slipping implications your position has merit. Hopefully talks are underway.

[iamthey]

FAN was damn sure held accountable for the spying that occurred (ask MHA who declared war on FAN during vietFAN). i find it hilarious that so many of Heg are trying to state that spying is not valid while they !@#$%*ed about having spies infiltrating Q. you can't have it both ways peoples. but it is quite amusing to have you try.

You are missing the point most of them are making. They are attacking Athens and really SF/C&G for being inconsistent. Most of what eventually made up Karma was perfectly fine and happy about what was happening to Q and NPO, there were no real out cry's over vox or community wide condemnation. For the most part the opinions of vox and fan divided along the eventual karma/H line. Their point is, if spying was NPO/Q's fault for not screening their members well enough, or just ok when it was done to them. Why is it now the most justified CB one is capable of producing?

Edited December 27, 2009 by iamthey

[Felix von Agnu]

so there was no threats of eternal war you state? so they get a free pass since they put themselves in a !@#$ty position? no. they put themselves their and thus cannot logically be compared to FAN who was put in a !@#$ty position against their will.

so, you admit (iirc you were TPF and a gov member during that time, could be wrong though) that TPF attempted to spy and destroy Athens at least? and Athens has no CB how? because TPF rejected terms to stay in a war......that is the weakest argument that is being flung here. if TPF put themselves in that position, then they should most assuredly be held responsible for whatever actions they take.

Yes, I was a member of TPF gov at the time. I was not privy to this plan though, and it was only when a ZH member told me about the scheme that I learned about it.

As far as the rejecting terms, that isn't in excuse for the actions. It would be more of a justification from the point of view we held. We entered the war to help out NPO, and that was what we sought out to do.

FAN was damn sure held accountable for the spying that occurred (ask MHA who declared war on FAN during vietFAN). i find it hilarious that so many of Heg are trying to state that spying is not valid while they !@#$%*ed about having spies infiltrating Q. you can't have it both ways peoples. but it is quite amusing to have you try.

Please show me where I have spoken out against spying during war time. I think once the DoW happens, the gloves are off. Even if there was no formal DoW between TPF and Athens, a state of war existed between NPO and Athens while TPF was at war with an ally of Athens. Its not that much of stretch to see that TPF might consider a way to weaken Athens.

[Bob]

You are missing the point most of them are making. They are attacking Athens and really SF/C&G for being inconsistent. Most of what eventually made up Karma was perfectly fine and happy about what was happening to Q and NPO, there were no real out cry's over vox or community wide commendations. For the most part the opinions of vox and fan divided along the eventual karma/H line. Their point is, if spying was NPO/Q's fault for not screening their members well enough, or just ok when it was done to them. Why is it now the most justified CB one is capable of producing?

Spying is never justified.

I apologize on behalf of Karma for not stopping Vox from spying on you, because Karma had that authority. Karma was ordering Vox to spy on you. Wasn't that obvious?

[Sande]

As much as I understood from this is that:

1. ZH was not formed to spy on Athens. It was formed to destabilise Athens and make it disband by creating tensions inside the alliance after merger.

2. It is really logical for ZH and TPF not to communicate with each other because that would give them out. There is no need to communicate either.

3. When ZH already existed and mhawk knew that they were going to go on with the plan, why didn't he tell the guys to stop or inform Athens?

This all makes up a really good CB for me. Unless ZH is manipulating with us.

Another question for everyone before you keep arguing about the fairness of the CB:

What has to be in a CB to make it moral?

All logs can be faked. You have to believe one or the other side's view on things to start with. Depending on which side you are, you either like the DoW or not.

No government member would be dumb enough to actually declare war on someone else's nation in-game.

I can't find any other reason for a valid CB other than the one Athens has on TPF - a proven fact that the government of one alliance wants to destroy the other alliance and taking measures to do that. Or they do not stop something they started, in this special case.

[Mixoux]

Spying is never justified.

I apologize on behalf of Karma for not stopping Vox from spying on you, because Karma had that authority. Karma was ordering Vox to spy on you. Wasn't that obvious?

Obviously, because Vox was never able to be stopped this is our fault. Even though half the world declared war on them. (declaring war for spying? Outrageous!)

[Dochartaigh]

Sure, though keep in mind that sedition or the serious advocation or conspiracy to violently overthrow of the government is a lesser charge than an actual rebellion or coup. In the same respect an attempted murder is much less than an actual murder. The point being, an actual case of recent spying had in the past dictated (if we are to rely on precedent like many here have said) 1) A diplomatic confrontation in which some sort of settlement is to be reached. If that fails then we go to 2. War.

In this case we had a situation of spying which was mitigated by three factors.

1. No actual spying ever took place as the plan fell apart in the middle/early stages.

2. The alliance that was 'conspiring' to spy was in a state of indefinite war with a superior enemy leaving them with few 'legitimate' tactics. The alliance targeted were more over the most vocal and obvious members of the coalition against TPF and its allies.

3. The conspiracy fell apart before the conclusion of the war, and was ended nearly six months ago.

Regardless of what side of the war you are on, the three of these factors combined add up to one conclusion:at the very least instant war without any attempt at diplomacy was simply put, an inappropriate response. There were a thousand other ways this could have been handled, this one was about the utter worst.

The best thing Athens could do now is call a temporary ceasefire and begin talks. If they believe they were some how wronged by TPF six months ago, then that can be expressed at the negotiating table.

the part where this falls apart on you is the fact that TPF put themselves in a state of indefinite war. it was never forced upon them and they could have left the war at any time. thus, they had a very legit tactic to stop having damage dealt to them.

thus, there was never a reason for TPF to attempt this spying operation especially against alliances they were not at war with. thus, your three points are useless and in one case false (point #2 is false).

[Kilkenny]

Just curious how you feel about htose logs you rely on. If parts are BS, does that draw the validity of all of them into question??

Parts of those logs that were cut in, were about a wartime operation I ran as MoW, at least a month before peace talks began and that had nothing to do with ZH, or any of the alliances attacking us.

If they have to piece in BS to make it work, what does that say about the rest???

And tbh, the whole lot of you cheering on FAN and others for doing what we are being accused of, while vilifying us.... too funny

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kilkenny

[Bob]

And tbh, the whole lot of you cheering on FAN and others for doing what we are being accused of, while vilifying us.... too funny

Because FAN was on eternal ZI because NPO etc were being completely ridiculous.

You don't have that going for you here.

Stop acting like the victim, and take what you deserve. You got caught, accept it and move on.

[Kilkenny]

the part where this falls apart on you is the fact that TPF put themselves in a state of indefinite war. it was never forced upon them and they could have left the war at any time. thus, they had a very legit tactic to stop having damage dealt to them.

See you keep saying that, but while we were going to choose our exit time, and told many people that, we were also told there would be no exit for us. So we planned for such.

And given this "revenge" war now, seems we were right that we would be kept at war.

[Merrie Melodies]

Just curious how you feel about htose logs you rely on. If parts are BS, does that draw the validity of all of them into question??

Parts of those logs that were cut in, were about a wartime operation I ran as MoW, at least a month before peace talks began and that had nothing to do with ZH, or any of the alliances attacking us.

If they have to piece in BS to make it work, what does that say about the rest???

And tbh, the whole lot of you cheering on FAN and others for doing what we are being accused of, while vilifying us.... too funny

KilKenny, was ZH original designed to carry out the tasks stated?

[Bob]

See you keep saying that, but while we were going to choose our exit time, and told many people that, we were also told there would be no exit for us. So we planned for such.

I think Archon has said time after time that is crap. Even if it was true, you weren't at war with Athens or RoK.

And given this "revenge" war now, seems we were right that we would be kept at war.

Revenge war. Right, it wasn't because you spied.

Keep trying please, loving what you guys are coming up with to try to explain this away.

[HalfEmpty]

Revenge war. Right, it wasn't because you spied.

Life, it's like Karma ain't it?

[Bob]

Revenge war. Right, it wasn't because you spied.

Life, it's like Karma ain't it?

OV did not spy on NPO. Accepting information from spies may be bad, but the way NPO conducted themselves made them difficult to defend during that situation. That is why TOP and others did not want to support them, because of how they conducted themselves.

[iamthey]

the part where this falls apart on you is the fact that TPF put themselves in a state of indefinite war. it was never forced upon them and they could have left the war at any time. thus, they had a very legit tactic to stop having damage dealt to them.

thus, there was never a reason for TPF to attempt this spying operation especially against alliances they were not at war with. thus, your three points are useless and in one case false (point #2 is false).

Perhaps the cost of your prescribed tactic was simply too high? One could go around in circles all day arguing whether they HAD to do what they did. One could say that FAN and Vox's situations were themselves self imposed and could have been relieved at any moment by a simple re-roll of their already ZI'd nations. In both cases I think there was a group or alliance that felt they had to stay at war to be true to themselves. (In this instance putting friends in NPO ahead of their development ambitions). So to them accepting those terms was simply not an option, but neither was doing nothing. None the less I think you miss my point. The point was, if an actual recent case of spying warrant's a diplomatic attempt, then so does a planned case of spying which took place six months ago under asymmetrical war time conditions, self imposed or otherwise. In short if the worst possible act at least warrants diplomacy first, so does its lesser variations.

Edited December 27, 2009 by iamthey

[D34th]

People should stop to say that TPF spied, they didn't. ZH did not gave them any information. CB here is over an idea, if it is a good CB or not, I don't know, but no spy take place because no information was passed to TPF thus they do not had any benefit with this idea. Was a stupid move? Yes. Could have be fixed diplomaticaly? Yes.

[Banksy]

Oh TPF......

I'm not buying this at all.

[Bob]

People should stop to say that TPF spied, they didn't. ZH did not gave them any information. CB here is over an idea, if it is a good CB or not, I don't know, but no spy take place because no information was passed to TPF thus they do not had any benefit with this idea. Was a stupid move? Yes. Could have be fixed diplomaticaly? Yes.

I am sorry our choice of adjective is confusing you.

Instead of bad spies, from now I will say bad attempted spies!??!

I hope this pleases you.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[the rebel]

I think Archon has said time after time that is crap. Even if it was true, you weren't at war with Athens or RoK.

Excuse me if im wrong, but dont most if not all treaties with defence clauses state something along the lines of "an attack on either signatory will be seen as an attack on both signatories"

[HalfEmpty]

Oh TPF......

I'm not buying this at all.

Ruh oh! Now we've gone and done it. It's deh orange folks from mission hilarity

Hail Orange!

Edited December 27, 2009 by HalfEmpty

[Dochartaigh]

You are missing the point most of them are making. They are attacking Athens and really SF/C&G for being inconsistent. Most of what eventually made up Karma was perfectly fine and happy about what was happening to Q and NPO, there were no real out cry's over vox or community wide condemnation. For the most part the opinions of vox and fan divided along the eventual karma/H line. Their point is, if spying was NPO/Q's fault for not screening their members well enough, or just ok when it was done to them. Why is it now the most justified CB one is capable of producing?

i am not missing that point. they have no evidence that SF or CnG actively supported or even condoned the actions taken by FAN or Vox. thus, their points are invalid as TPF actively supported and condoned the actions that ZH were to undertake.

just because people find it amusing that Vox made the Tittler and TWiP does not mean they supported it. just that it was amusing. pretty sure no one jumped to Vox's defense when they were declared upon for spying so your point again is nullified.

Yes, I was a member of TPF gov at the time. I was not privy to this plan though, and it was only when a ZH member told me about the scheme that I learned about it.

As far as the rejecting terms, that isn't in excuse for the actions. It would be more of a justification from the point of view we held. We entered the war to help out NPO, and that was what we sought out to do.

Please show me where I have spoken out against spying during war time. I think once the DoW happens, the gloves are off. Even if there was no formal DoW between TPF and Athens, a state of war existed between NPO and Athens while TPF was at war with an ally of Athens. Its not that much of stretch to see that TPF might consider a way to weaken Athens.

so you never went to Athens about what ZH was going to do? why is that?

how is it justified? they were not at war with Athens and just because TPF stayed at war and Athens fought NPO, how are their actions justified in any way? with that sort of precedent in place, the allies of anyone at war is now susceptible regardless of their level of involvement in a war. shoot, Athens according to you could very well spy on your allies during this war and once this war is done with, and that spying is found out, your allies will not have a foot to stand on for a CB against Athens, since ya know, it was done during war-time.... i doubt that would happen though.

also, the actions that were to be undertaken would have taken longer than the war would have gone, since part of the actions were to merge into Athens and get into gov positions in order to destalibilize and destroy Athens. that could take months.

then there is that annoying little fact that TPF never came clean about this action and despite allegedly not being in contact with CH, would have known that the plan could very well have still been underway. yet TPF never once went to Athens about it, thus, allowing the actions to continue after the war was over.

And tbh, the whole lot of you cheering on FAN and others for doing what we are being accused of, while vilifying us.... too funny

i never cheered FAN on for spying. in fact, i condemned them for those actions. i still do not want to treaty them because of those actions.

[potato]

People should stop to say that TPF spied, they didn't. ZH did not gave them any information. CB here is over an idea, if it is a good CB or not, I don't know, but no spy take place because no information was passed to TPF thus they do not had any benefit with this idea. Was a stupid move? Yes. Could have be fixed diplomaticaly? Yes.

Why would Athens want to resolve it diplomatically? ZH was created by TPF with the specific intent to destroy Athens' community. TPF threw the first punch, albeit under the table.

[D34th]

I am sorry our choice of adjective is confusing you.

Instead of bad spies, from now I will say bad attempted spies!??!

I hope this pleases you.

You avoided my point, are really a war needed because a ideia 6 months old, where a failed attempt of spy occurred and when no information was obtained? Couldn't it be fixed diplomaticaly?

Why would Athens want to resolve it diplomatically? ZH was created by TPF with the specific intent to destroy Athens' community. TPF threw the first punch, albeit under the table.

Why not? Too much Blood thirst?

Edited December 27, 2009 by D34th

[potato]

Excuse me if im wrong, but dont most if not all treaties with defence clauses state something along the lines of "an attack on either signatory will be seen as an attack on both signatories"

Yes. But in reality, most of those treaties need to be activated. That one wasn't.

And, since I was MK high gov't at the time, I can tell you, while getting TPF and PC to agree with a !@#$%*, keeping TPF at war for ever was NEVER our intention.