So, uh, Athens...

[D34th]

Modesty isn't in everyone's heart I'm calling the war how I see it, Jason's calling it how he sees it. From NSO's viewpoint, yes, it is a good idea to defend your members. The thing is, there wasn't any diplomatic procedure (other than Jason asking Anthony if he wanted a way out)

So one of the leaders of the RAD states that war was justified and you still think it wasn't. Why I'm still arguing with you?

[Arrnea]

I thought the Revenge doctrine was some evil machination of the NPO that infringed on the sovereignty of other AA's? I swear i read that somewhere.

No, that's the first Moldavi doctrine.

[Neo Uruk]

So one of the leaders of the RAD states that war was justified and you still think it wasn't. Why I'm still arguing with you?

Because Jason8 was a leader of RAD when the war started?

Edit: DAMNIT I SAID I WOULDN'T DO THIS D:

Edited November 14, 2009 by Unavailable Contact

[Jason8]

So one of the leaders of the RAD states that war was justified and you still think it wasn't. Why I'm still arguing with you?

Because Jason8 was a leader of RAD when the war started?

I was just a lowly member of RAD at the time. But really, who cares?

[TehChron]

you guys put your doctrine out for the world to see, but the have yet to use it. CN hopes your are not all talk but i know NSO is all talk.

This coming from the guy who just voiced his regret on not following up on his desired wishes to attack us. Here's a perfect opportunity to stand by your moralistic whatevers, put up your dukes, make up for past mistakes, and fight for the little guy! I'm sure you guys can take Athens, take a shot at it. Life's too short for regrets and whatnot.

[Heft]

This has nothing to do with RAD or our war upon them however many months ago.

It has everything to do with a serious of entirely uncoordinated and coincidental tech raids upon nations that just happen to share an AA by the forces of (predominantly) Athens and (somewhat) FOB.

[He Who Has No Name]

the NPO was the first and only alliance to protect unaligneds on our sphere; Revenge Doctrine.

Still waiting.

[Sulmar]

In this case, however, it is a tech raid.

When an alliance takes the time to coordinate their attacks between members for an update blitz with another alliance, I think it pushes beyond the realm of a tech raid.

I especially like this screen of the FoB member "tech raiding" KoNi. When you are giving orders to attack another alliance, it is definitely not a tech raid.

[TrotskysRevenge]

Ahem.

:: taps foot patiently ::

I apologize; we were the second alliance do do so..... FAN did have Yellow Number Five , where they protected unalignds in yellow, as long as they were able to.

My apologies, my good sirs.

[Choader]

Guys if you're going to be angry about people breaking their charter, which Athens may or may not have done, go talk to FoB.

It seems both Athens and us are in serious need of some wiki and forum updating. Not much on that page is current. The charter, government, statistics, even one of our treaties is out of date.

That particular version of the code was written over a year ago and doesn't accurately represent how our alliance is run, if you'd like I can point out the other foux pas'.

[Neo Uruk]

This coming from the guy who just voiced his regret on not following up on his desired wishes to attack us. Here's a perfect opportunity to stand by your moralistic whatevers, put up your dukes, make up for past mistakes, and fight for the little guy! I'm sure you guys can take Athens, take a shot at it. Life's too short for regrets and whatnot.

I don't think he disagrees with raiding. Just !@#$%^&*.

[Cyphon88]

Wow, for an irrelevant alliance, we sure are relevant to be brought up in disputes which have nothing to do with us with literally no prior prompting, huh?

Not that you were saying so, Cyphon, it's just that it's a line often used by the same folks that somehow are trying to make the NSO a part of this mess.

I personally don't think that there are any irrelevant alliances. I'm not trying to make you part of this mess, just figure out when you guys will and won't be using it. Because it does add to that uncertainty and attribution problem for any military or FA action.

The danger I would guess with NSO, is calling you irrelevant and the doctrine irrelevant only for this to spring into action and bite someone in the $@!.

I don't think I would be alone in thinking that in this some $@! biting would be nice to see here (hey, I'm maroon, what did you expect? ).

[Essenia]

I apologize; we were the second alliance do do so..... FAN did have Yellow Number Five , where they protected unalignds in yellow, as long as they were able to.

My apologies, my good sirs.

FAN actually protected every single nation on yellow via YN5. They also didn't declare that they owned the Yellow Team in YN5. Going backwards, the NPO way.

[mushi]

This coming from the guy who just voiced his regret on not following up on his desired wishes to attack us. Here's a perfect opportunity to stand by your moralistic whatevers, put up your dukes, make up for past mistakes, and fight for the little guy! I'm sure you guys can take Athens, take a shot at it. Life's too short for regrets and whatnot.

we did not go out of our way to publish a doctrine on it.

Also PC is very pro-tech raiding if you haven't noticed.

[Neo Uruk]

When an alliance takes the time to coordinate their attacks between members for an update blitz with another alliance, I think it pushes beyond the realm of a tech raid.

I especially like this screen of the FoB member "tech raiding" KoNi. When you are giving orders to attack another alliance, it is definitely not a tech raid.

They coordinated something to gain profit. What is there left to understand? FoB and Athens are being FoB and Athens. Accept it, or- I die a little inside every time I say this - do something about it.

[TehChron]

I don't think he disagrees with raiding. Just !@#$%^&*.

Well, then what on earth does the NSO-RAD war have to do with any of this then? After all, you're such an expert on the subject.

That being said, I wish Athens and FoB the best of luck in their continued defense of their position in the Survivor race.

we did not go out of our way to publish a doctrine on it.

Also PC is very pro-tech raiding if you haven't noticed.

Then what are you even complaining about?

Edited November 14, 2009 by Chron

[shahenshah]

Was waiting on someone to finally say 'Do something about it', the circle is now complete.

Greetings btw and what Heft said.

[Neo Uruk]

Was waiting on someone to finally say 'Do something about it', the circle is now complete.

Sadly, it's the only way to deal with non-issues like this.

[Sulmar]

They coordinated something to gain profit. What is there left to understand? FoB and Athens are being FoB and Athens. Accept it, or- I die a little inside every time I say this - do something about it.

I accept it, I just don't understand why they are calling it a tech raid. If you are ordering someone to attack a nation, I think that should rule out tech raiding.

Also, coordination =/= orders, nice try though.

[The Pansy]

I wonder what would happen if someone aided the Knights of Ni?

Edited November 14, 2009 by The Pansy

[Jesse End]

I accept it, I just don't understand why they are calling it a tech raid. If you are ordering someone to attack a nation, I think that should rule out tech raiding.

Also, coordination =/= orders, nice try though.

Looks like not everybody got the memo to call it a tech raid

[Arcturus Jefferson]

nvm

Edited November 14, 2009 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Biff Webster]

For a second I thought that was the real Helga.

Helga

Edited November 14, 2009 by Biff Webster

[Jyrinx]

<stuff that was not preceded by the ph34r smilie>

You posted without . I'm speechless.

There also seems to be a schism as to whether tech raiding/extortion is acceptable, dependent on the strength of the victim. It seems from these actions, that there is some sliding boundary of acceptability of this action within CN. Rather than logical absolutes (if its wrong at one size, why is it wrong at another?)

Beyond that clarification of the issues arising here really questions what the moral basis of people's views are here. I disagree with tech raiding (I'm sure that's apparent), I consider it bullying and extortion, as the initial attack will ONLY occur when it's in the favor of the aggressor, and I see it as a case of might makes right. That said, I don't expect anything to be done here, I don't see NSO coming in here through the MD, because this action is coherent with their motto/ideology. I don't see anyone doing anything here, except a stern talking to of Athens. This includes me, I don't have the might to make my right universal, and so those with the 'lesser' rights among us, will continue to suffer this extortion.

You presume that Athens, or people in general, care about being consistent in their beliefs. The view as presented by Athens et al in this thread is neither internally consistent nor intellectually honest; it's wrong to attack alliances unprovoked, curb stomp them, and force them to give you tech but it's ok to raid a smaller alliance because the scale is less? As you state, why is forcing tech wrong at one scale but not another?

This isn't really a criticism of Athens or FoB specifically, although I do disagree with what they've done, since that would presume that those two alliances are uniquely deserving of criticism. Unfortunately tech raiding is so common that people simply accept it, without realizing that that explicitly supports a "might makes right" philosophy. I actually believe people when they say that tech raiding and outright warfare are different in their minds. It's different to them because it's so prevalent that they force themselves to classify it as morally different. One member of FoB even stated in this thread that he liked stealing and another member said that it's an alliance's fault if they're defenseless. I'm sure these same members would denounce the insanely harsh terms given out to their allies at the end of the NoCB war, which was basically people stealing because they could as the alliances couldn't defend themselves from a stronger opponent. This paradigm is inconsistent.

As long as people aren't worried about consistent paradigms, which I'm willing to bet most aren't, tech raiding will still be viewed as somehow different. Of course, there actually are people that believe in tech raiding and are not inconsistent at all; they simply might-makes-right and see nothing wrong with believing as such. To each his own.

</possibly incoherent ramblings from lack of sleep>

[Choader]

I accept it, I just don't understand why they are calling it a tech raid. If you are ordering someone to attack a nation, I think that should rule out tech raiding.

Also, coordination =/= orders, nice try though.

Ask Octaviuus about it yourself, he's in #fob most evenings. What I will tell you is that I personally mentioned to him when I saw him last that there was a raid available if he wanted, then he declared shortly after. There was no "order", we don't make people raid if they don't want to. In fact we have several buccaneers who find raiding "immoral". Lulz.

Why Octavious phrased his declaration that way, I couldn't tell you.