So, uh, Athens...

[Guffey]

I don't like tech raiding first of all, but I especially do not like alliance tech raiding. This is an alliance tech raid on a large scale. One of the worst things to do in my book. Using your large alliance to push around the little guys who can't fight back and if they do, would get pounded. and you do this raid in violation of your charter, most likely government sanctioned seeing the responses here. (didn't have time to read all 46 pages... so i read the first 5) This is despicable Athens and FoB. Grow up and tech raid Gremlins, TSO, or TOP.

And i hope that Knights of Ni do not give in to this raid. Fight back, and bring in diplomatic support. Pay Nothing if you fight back, Athens and FoB deserves to pay you, and if that means eating your nukes, then so be it. There should be plenty of diplomatic support on your side to make Athens back off and pay reps.

[Corinan]

It's been the universal truth of Planet Bob since its inception.

Agreed, except that NPO was rolled in the Karma war for doing just that, according to its detractors. Now those who rolled NPO for such actions are committing them. It's hypocritical. I don't take issue with the action itself, just the blatant hypocrisy in trying to defend it.

[shahenshah]

My god, learn your history about me if you're trying to talk !@#$ about me, thank you very much.

I quit this world because of Q once.

Bah, you were in ex-GOONs and UJP So I'll re-tract my point regarding of hypocrisy as far as you alone as single person are concerned, in fact, I'd say your opinion on this must be pretty consistent since early days as can be seen .

[Tromp]

What has the world come to when members of Karma are resorting to 'do something about it'? Sure, every nation has a 'sovereign right' to do whatever it likes, if you want to be that reductionist (though I'd say the sovereign right not to have your territory violated was more important, myself). But you're going straight into Josef Thorne territory if you attempt to use that as justification for attacking innocent nations for no reason.

You guys are making me agree with the NPO. Yes, they did some really bad things in their past, including attacking GPA over basically nothing. But (and here's the part of the story you're forgetting) that eventually resulted in them being rolled because they made enemies of everyone – because such things are wrong. They're still wrong if you do them.

Where have I said I supported Athens in any way?

The only thing I have stated, is that I think this is none of my business, nor is it yours... And if you do think it is of your business, as shown by all the bawwing by several people in this thread, then act.

It's not that hard. If I decide to techraid/attack someone else, I will also have to face the consequences, if there are any.

"Might makes right" is nothing but a propaganda line, trying to make the other look bad. But I believe those people who are bawwing but don't act look more bad than those nations raiding KofN.

Also, this has nothing to do with 'Karma', as I have stated earlier. I was a part of Karma as well, but this case sure as hell isn't 'Karma' approved.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Tromp

[Asriel Belacqua]

Very few times am I able to agree with Bob Janova on such a large level. I have always found him a good person to listen to, even if I don't agree with him though, because he always thinks things through.

What Athens did here is horrifying. It was and is hypocrisy. There is no other word for it. When Athens joined in the fight with Karma I thought highly of them, and now I know I was wrong to do so. They aren't a good alliance, they aren't one I'd like to treaty with. They are just as bad as the Hegemony was in it's hay-day.

Anyone trying to justify it is either one of those people who supported it when the Hegemony did it, or, if they fought against these types of actions, is nothing but a hypocrite.

Anyone who says anything relating to "do something about it," who complained when the Hegemony said that: Shame on you.

You want me to do something about it? I will, in my own pacifistic manner, and will make sure to note this event and how everyone individually is reacting to it. You may say "But that's not enough action" No, it's not enough action, for now, however that is not my way, to act in a brash manner. I take my time.

[youwish959]

Gremlins already did "something" when NSO tried to recruit from TDO. So i wouldnt be surprised if backchannels are currently being used.

Hold up. What did you all do?

[WarriorConcept]

Athens and FoB declared war on a neutral alliance for financial gain. That's the story.

Yes they did declare a tech raid.

Agreed, except that NPO was rolled in the Karma war for doing just that, according to its detractors. Now those who rolled NPO for such actions are committing them. It's hypocritical. I don't take issue with the action itself, just the blatant hypocrisy in trying to defend it.

NPO was rolled for making too many enemies and not caring about its PR enough. If it happens to Athens so be it really. I think they're smart enough to avoid getting into a situation like NPO's but I don't know their leaders that well.

[Tromp]

I would like to state here that the nation of Chokan has never participated in raiding. However, we do acknowledge and tolerate the practice. But, that doesn't mean I have very little to complain about. The basis of raiding was that individual nations should be allowed to declare war freely, as long as it would bring no harm to their alliance. Groups of under 5 or 10 or whatever were often attacked because they lacked any actual community. I could care less about the size of Knights of Ni or even that they're being raided, but the fact that they were attacked en masse and certain people from Athens, FoB, and others are trying to downplay it as merely nothing, and how they're thoughtful enough not to fire missiles is hypocritical in the sense that NPO was attacked for less, and contrary to the customary conventions of Digiterran politics that neutral alliances are left in peace.

I agree with most of what you say here, don't get me wrong.

What I find funny, is all those people bawwing about these raids, while at the same time most of them do it themselves, or at the very least acknowledge and tolerate it, like you do.

If Athens and FoB want to declare that neutrals are fair game, then so be it. They've been a favourite target for abuse for quite some time and I can't say that I disagree with that, but don't do something and then say you haven't. Athens and FoB declared war on a neutral alliance for financial gain. That's the story.

I'm not Athenian government, so I won't reply to this with regards to it's content.

[Asriel Belacqua]

I agree with most of what you say here, don't get me wrong.

What I find funny, is all those people bawwing about these raids, while at the same time most of them do it themselves, or at the very least acknowledge and tolerate it, like you do.

I'm not Athenian government, so I won't reply to this with regards to it's content.

They tolerate raids of a different kind. Most people wouldn't consider this a simple tech raid, it's more of an alliance-wide tech. war for financial gain. There's a difference.

[Lusitan]

I guess Athens has been showing their true colours after the poor victim who lost 5/6s of their tech to NPO costume started to wear out. I can't say I am surprised by this, disgusted yes, but not surprised.

[Bob Janova]

Where have I said I supported Athens in any way?

Sorry, general 'you', i.e. people that support them. If you don't, then it doesn't mean you particularly.

[Corinan]

NPO was rolled for making too many enemies and not caring about its PR enough. If it happens to Athens so be it really. I think they're smart enough to avoid getting into a situation like NPO's but I don't know their leaders that well.

Oh ok, so it wasn't done to free the world from the terror of NPO and the Hegemony like Karma made it out to be? It was merely a political and military hit in order to install other alliances (including Athens) in their place? Thanks, I already knew that but I'm glad it's out in the open now. At least you're being honest.

[scythegfx]

MK seems to be in support, not 100% sure on that, but that seems to be the trend.

Sure, certain members are, but not all.

hai brennan

[Tromp]

They tolerate raids of a different kind. Most people wouldn't consider this a simple tech raid, it's more of an alliance-wide tech. war for financial gain. There's a difference.

If Athens wants to attack an other alliance, it is in their right to do so, so how is it different from raiding?

It is up to you how you deal with it, if you want to that is. All I see now is a lot of posturing, so apparently you don't care that much, nor do most of these people here.

[Jens of the desert]

This can only end well. At least when you all stop talking morals and rights, and start talking war

[WarriorConcept]

Oh ok, so it wasn't done to free the world from the terror of NPO and the Hegemony like Karma made it out to be? It was merely a political and military hit in order to install other alliances (including Athens) in their place? Thanks, I already knew that but I'm glad it's out in the open now. At least you're being honest.

How do you think they made the enemies?

[Brenann]

Sure, certain members are, but not all.

hai brennan

Good to see the spores haven't gotten to you completely.

Scythe

I am still waiting on to see what the rest of C&G has to say about this... on top of all those alliances that have MDP, MDoAP or MDAP with Athens... When ones ally goes way off course, you would think it would be prudent to try and fix it. Unless of course they condone this activity.

[ramon666]

If they have any type of treaty, we do not raid them. As I said before, raiding alliances that have treaties is strictly forbidden. All alliances who allow their members to raid alliance affiliations should have a similar law set down.

Well, this is nice. Still reading what is being written about us, but I must correct you here. We (the Knights of Ni!) actually have a treaty with M*A*S*H. It's very old and maybe long forgotten, but it never got cancelled. Be aware that we haven't notified M*A*S*H yet. I don't mean to blow this thing up bigger than it is right now.

[In Spades]

You can attack them too you know.

And have to sit for 40 some-odd pages of BS over it? HA!

[Corinan]

How do you think they made the enemies?

I think it had to do with their "do something about it" attitude. You know, the one people like Josef Thorne, myself, and others displayed in NPO and the one that Athens and friends are displaying today.

[Zangmonkey]

No alliance on the planet has the right dictate to Athens their tech-raiding regulations. This is a fact, and even though I speak only for myself I contend that most Gramlins would agree.

The matter of consequence is that this behavior has historically fallen outside of the realm of acceptable tech raiding.

Who defines what is and is not acceptable? Like everything else in the cyberverse, it is defined by precedence and acceptance.

Each of us has a justified interest in what is to be considered "acceptable" behavior in the cyberverse.

Each of us has a justified interest in the prevailing use of military.

Each of us has a justified interest in not allowing this behavior to become commonplace.

If for only to prevent this paradigm shift, each of us has a reason to impede.

Athens, your affairs may be your own, but how you impact the world stage is absolutely our business.

It would be fitting for a respectable alliance (as many of us know you to be) to admit the moral problem with the actions you've undertaken; lest everybody resort to the same actions you've displayed.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Matthew PK

[Brenann]

Well, this is nice. Still reading what is being written about us, but I must correct you here. We (the Knights of Ni!) actually have a treaty with M*A*S*H. It's very old and maybe long forgotten, but it never got cancelled. Be aware that we haven't notified M*A*S*H yet. I don't mean to blow this thing up bigger than it is right now.

Oh this could be lots of fun.... Seeing as M*A*S*H also has a MDoAP with Athens.

[Asriel Belacqua]

If Athens wants to attack an other alliance, it is in their right to do so, so how is it different from raiding?

It is up to you how you deal with it, if you want to that is. All I see now is a lot of posturing, so apparently you don't care that much, nor do most of these people here.

It is different, not in the right that gives them the ability to do it, but the action. It's like comparing someone going insane and killing someone, to someone who plans a string of murders with their friends and kills a neighborhood. They have the same ability to do that damage, however one goes the extra mile in doing so. THAT'S the difference.

Mate, I care more than you know. However what you don't know is I care more for my friends and allies than I do my own personal vendettas. They have not expressed a wish to get involved in any way, and so I will not get involved more than the words I type on these forums. Out of respect for them, and their right to not get their @#$% kicked because I want to go bat-!@#$ on someone, I won't do that.

[scythegfx]

Well, this is nice. Still reading what is being written about us, but I must correct you here. We (the Knights of Ni!) actually have a treaty with M*A*S*H. It's very old and maybe long forgotten, but it never got cancelled. Be aware that we haven't notified M*A*S*H yet. I don't mean to blow this thing up bigger than it is right now.

The plot thickens.

[Goldie]

Well, this is nice. Still reading what is being written about us, but I must correct you here. We (the Knights of Ni!) actually have a treaty with M*A*S*H. It's very old and maybe long forgotten, but it never got cancelled. Be aware that we haven't notified M*A*S*H yet. I don't mean to blow this thing up bigger than it is right now.

took 48 pages but this thread just got verrrrry interesting